I feel like Malzahar's rework failed almost as spectacularly as Mordekaiser's.

Malicious Metal··218 votes·8,348 views

The rework intended to make him more interactive in lane since old malz used to just push waves non stop with his spreading space aids.

Now he's even worse, with a passive that nullifies any kind of aggression towards him and most of his old spell's having been nerfed in terms of damage. He revolves ENTIRELY around his Voidlings now, making him extremely gimmicky in my eyes.

Old Malzahar used to be THE lockdown mage, an Anti-dive/assassin mage, that terrorized you with visions of impending doom and the dawn of the Void's invasion.

New one's just a worse Yorick. He's a minionmancer that's just MEH in terms of his other aspects. At least Yorick has other impactful spells and has agency over his summons.

I just feel the new Malzahar's so gimmicky and unrewarding because most of his power is allocated in those annoying voidlings. He could definitely use some MAJOR work, maybe even a revert, but the best course of action would be just switching some power around and make him MORE than just a W bot.

Edit; Nothing against RiotRepertoir(?) but it seemed like he just put too much emphasis on the Voidlings. Most Malzahar players liked them but they were never an integral part of his kit but rather a byproduct of him casting his void-magic. Making them tear through the fabric and rifts in space and leak into the rift. He's the prophet of the Void, not a Broodmother!

179 Comments

SociopathFriend55 votes

I definitely remember in the old thread where they ASKED Malz mains what they valued about him and the major emphasis was: The AoE silence that was unique The spreading visions And the ultimate

The voidlings were nice and people didn't want the AD build to vanish, but a majority of the comments were not about Malz focusing on the minions at all.

Rebonack52 votes

{quoted}

I definitely remember in the old thread where they ASKED Malz mains what they valued about him and the major emphasis was: The AoE silence that was unique The spreading visions And the ultimate

The voidlings were nice and people didn't want the AD build to vanish, but a majority of the comments were not about Malz focusing on the minions at all.

As a matter of fact, most people requested that AP Malz not be focused on the Voidlings at all since that would require watering down his spells.

Which is exactly what happened.

It's really pretty hilarious. People were begging Riot to change Kog's passive and it gets left untouched. People were begging Riot to leave Malz' passive alone and it got changed.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Saianna20 votes

I guess it's time to beg Riot to not touch Lee [insert LCS money pun] Sin

Anidan8 votes

Do that and they'll actually listen and not touch him, because it's Lee. I like Lee myself, and don't see him as a terrible thing in this game, but Riot does have their favorites and he is on that list.

Anidan7 votes

That's more of an anti-joke chicken type of thing, bro. "Oh, a joke! Let me explain it for you!"

It's pretty obvious that I got it.

watch the bush1 votes

So funny how you guys cry so much about him just because he's played often. It's almost as if you think of him as "the most broken champion in the game."

Saianna6 votes

We had many, many, maaany examples of Riot nerfing a champion because he was picked tad too often.

Yet, you said it yourself, he's played often.

So why Lee is nerf-proof, while other champions go into gutter just because they were played by 1-0,5% too many players?


Second thing, broken or not, lee has 1 major flaw, thus it makes playing against him very tiresome and annoying:

It is LEE who decides if he wants to fight or not. He has the tools to either start a duel, or just disengage. What's worse he can disengage at any given moment whenever he might lose simply by using either 2 dashes or kick in your face.

TheDelighted3 votes

Same with vel koz. The thread was full of comments saying that vel didnt need any change... you know the rest. Sometimes riot acts so selfish... yes i understand that you spent a lot of hours into a rework, but you cant rule out a revert if the rework is unsuccesful...

SociopathFriend7 votes

Vel honestly had virtually no change though. It came across as more of a numbers-change than anything else. His passive scaled with AP, his Q refunded mana, and his ult could deal true damage. Mechanically he was no different as he still played exactly the same. Get 3 proc- ult- delete.

Compared to Malz- where two abilities entirely changed and his ultimate was altered as well.

TheDelighted6 votes

That wasn't my point. What I meant is Riot doesn't hear essential feedback when it comes to reverting reworks. Vel koz didn't need any change, but riot changed him just for the sake of change.

Over Innsmouth52 votes

Revert yes.

Even putting aside how much I loved old Malzahar as an anti-assassin mage, I think it's just wrong what Riot did to him.

NodirjonSattarov12 votes

Revert every void being. KogMaw

Over Innsmouth24 votes

Season 4 Kassadin let's go.

Anidan4 votes

Can't end poorly. He was only, what, nigh-on universal? Pfft, we can handle it.

Haha ha... ha. Oh boy.

DKM Bismarck5 votes

Season 3 Kassadin lets go.

Mira Arya Enthe10 votes

Former Malz one trick. I agree.

Onkel Malte36 votes

Finally someone says it out loud without getting bashed!

DO IT NOW! Revert him! I would love that! If that happens i could finally play Malzahar again!

ZyniX5 votes

We can keep dreaming but it will never happen.

Toastersaot35 votes

Malzahar rework took him from being an OP Jungler on release who would Solo Dragon at level 3, then to an OP Mid Laner who was Pick or ban in the LCS, then now an OP Support which is now also Pick or ban in the LCS.

He used to be just a plain old regular Mid Laner.

Ez dePaz3 votes

Well pre rework malz could also do drake at level 3, even 2. Now voidlings can't even touch either drag, barons or towers.

Toastersaot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ez dePaz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tjk13BeY,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-02-06T02:11:35.581+0000)

Well pre rework malz could also do drake at level 3, even 2. Now voidlings can't even touch either drag, barons or towers.

Well I was probably up to be a Pre-Rework Malzahar OTP, but then after the rework he felt so awful to play I'm a Vladimir Main.

Sugar Momma3 votes

after the rework he felt so awful to play I'm a Vladimir Main.

That's how you know it's REALLY bad.

Rebonack31 votes

I really wouldn't mind a revert at all.

Both AD Malz and AP Malz were fun, compelling champions to play as. Now we have this watered down version of both of them amalgamated together with a passive that encourages passivity more so than any other passive in the game.

The Deckowner28 votes

just revert this garbage rework like they did with kogmaw.

Spice POWAH5 votes

and hope they don't wait a whole season

Rosenwyn28 votes

I feel really bad for people who have been playing Malzahar before his rework. When old Malz was kicking around I was mostly a support player (still am, I guess) and I thought he looked cool and was one of those "hidden powerhouse gems" that a lot of people looked over. Really strong in his own right, but not necessarily overpowered. I never really played him though since he wasn't exactly to my style and I didn't play mid much. However, since his rework, I've despised him so much.

In the past it used to be "oh neat, a Malzahar" and it was interesting to see and now it's a champion I dread to even look at. I don't like seeing him at all. I don't like playing with him, I don't like playing against him, I don't even like seeing him in pro-play. His kit in innately broken and it's literately one of the most unhealthy kits probably in the game. It really, really makes me sad to see this, especially since I love hearing about his lore with Kassadin. They're all Shuriman champions and I think there is so much more cool growth with the Shurima faction as a whole, and I just... ick.

I think Malzahar is a lot more unhealthy kit-wise than Zyra, but as a Zyra main since pre-rework, when her rework came around I always felt that they would eventually nerf a bunch of other parts of her kit before they actually get to the problem (which IMO is how fast her passive spawns seeds low-level), and Malzahar is in the same boat... But he'a way worse. All around, it just makes me really sad to see this happen. I think some champion reworks have largely been really successful (Poppy, Sion, Taric) but a lot of the soft-reworks have just been so... lackluster and unhealthy (Rengar and Malzahar come to mind... Haven't played against much Warwick yet to talk about him) and some have been a bit overturned (Zyra, previously Soraka).

Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing a revert a la Kogmaw and work on something down the line that's better and actually in line with Malzahar's identity. Making a bloodthirsty pokemon monster wasn't the way to go, I think. Having AP and AD ratios on some champions is cool but sometimes, you need to let those go. After all, AP Assassin Poppy used to be a thing, but she's found an constant identity now -- and she's in a better state with that change.

deadlychuck6 votes

I don't understand why people talk about the AD scaling on him. It was a specialized build that wasn't crazy broken or anything, yet wasn't incompatible with his kit.

Nothing about AD malzahar existing really affected the outcome of this rework, other than it being part of his identity. Which it no longer is, because AD builds on him are useless, and the new design is just an amalgamation of the old AP and AD play styles, simplified to a disgustingly low depth of complexity.

Playing malzahar, even AP to a fair extent, took some degree of difficult input, managing the passive stacks, landing Q (which i'll remind you was much much slower animation pre-rework), and not having your ult instantly interrupted in team fights.

Now the player themselves have almost no control of the kit. You're either hitting the right keys at the pre-determined time, or you're missing out on damage. It's like playing fucking guitar hero now.

Christ Superstar22 votes

God, someone finally said it - I've been thinking about writing a post myself, instead of posting here and there in threads.

I feel they took him in a total wrong direction, with way too much minion focus, and made him into to an entirely different champion - I would be oh-so-happy if they would do a full revert, hell, I'd even take a Kog'maw level revert. Though, worst part is, Riot seem almost unable to say "yup, we did it wrong, let's try again later" and instead wastes energy with small changes and nerfs, when it's the kit itself that's problematic. Please just face it was a dud and start over - I beg you... I'd be happy to post ideas in a forum if it was ever open for discussion. Where do I sign the petition? ;)

It seemed some of the concerns of the developers was the R to win vs. squishies and vice versa too dependent on R. How QSS made him far less useful. Too easy to gank (hard to position right). Voidlings fading to irrelevancy for AP Malz. To do that, they watered down his base damages and scaling, removed ult damagewise, moved alot more power to Voidlings (who are wildly incosistent in their performance), made it super easy to block skillshots with W and pulled a random shield from out of nowhere and have had trouble balancing him ever since.

The way I see it, they had some of it right, the intent, that is - imo, he was too R dependant, and I felt pretty meh when it wasn't up. Sure, Q could chunk and change TFs with the 3s silence, but if missed (easy to do if people are good and the increasing mobility), I was pretty useless. E/W didn't do damage fast enough. Voidlings became a non factor.

So, as I see it, they were right to switch some power around, just not the way they did it. If anything, his entire rework should have been in line with Annie's instead with small changes/tweaks, as he was already one of the most well balanced mages - seeing he was almost untouched for a looong time before rework, only changed with the introduction of keystones (looking at you DfT).

I'm all in for a revert, or a "Kog'maw"-esque revert, that could look something like this, for starters:

Passive: Pre-rework, with Annie bar and the addition of 0,1-0,2 AP on minions Q: New one, no E refresh W: Pre-rework E: Pre-rework R: Pre-rework, half damage to offset the new voidling damage

Now, that was just an idea, that would help alleviate some of the concerns, with him being less R dependant, with more power on voidlings, easier to read his "danger level" with # of voidlings active, and overall able to contribute more than a simple "find picks" bot. Also would be harder to block linear skillshots with it (far from impossible, as I did it plenty of times before), and if Annie bar is implemented, would have to set him up to spend his charges before CCing.

There's tonnes of ways this could be tweaked too, as say, W is a little bland. You could implement the shield on W having it activate a 50% dmg reduction for 1 sec if standing on W. Or, it could do low initial damage, but do sizeable portion of it's total damage on fade out - making it a great zoning tool. Point is, there's so much you can do - if only you'd be willing to accept it was a failure.

TLDR; plz revert

Thefrostyviking19 votes

Yoric and malz both have the same amount of control over minions.

Target hit by E? Minions will attack.

Target not hit? Minions will be having a vacation.

....wow this sounds really stupid when writing it out,,,,especially since the focus is on the minions.

Then we have the passive that is utterly useless against any form of long range harass or short cooldown one.

And the nearly compete lack of damage without voidlings.....

I miss my old malzahar, i used him to bully anything from zed to katarina to Yasou and it was great.

Now he get's crapped on by anything that outrange's him or has a way around his voidlings.

RIP best the man with the best dancing moves item 3070 item 3070

Malicious Metal21 votes

But unlike Malzahar Yorick can just press R and get his minions. Or he has to have a setup to summon them during lane.

If Malzahar uses his R without his W he's basically a failure of a champion as the Voidlings are his entire damage. Yorick can still cave your skull in with a shovel.

Ultîma17 votes

Malz was all about his visions, and they nerfed them to hell.

He was one of the best lane pushers in the game, now not so much.

His old kit lacked interactivity, but his new voidlings have the exact same gameplay issues as old Yorick's ghouls used to have.

More subjectively, I feel like Malz is way less fun to play now than he ever was before.

Rito Staff12 votes

So many failed reworks (and some good ones) but after many years of League, you'd figure they have it handled by now

iTaLenTZ11 votes

First he was OP in jungle, then in Mid/Top, now as Support and soon you can't play him anywhere. He is unfun, unsatisfying to play because 95% of his damage is controlled by the AI. How is that skilful or healthy gameplay? As soon as I saw his rework on the PBE it only took me 15m to realize this would eventually happen and it has been happening for a long time now. Then how can 'so called professionals' failed to see that? Perhaps 3 years of experience and over 500K mastery points actually means something. The fact Repertoir never took the time to respond to any of my topics or to any other Malz main for that matter who showed his concerns is something I deeply resent. He only replied to those who didn't show any criticism and were on the same boat and ignored everyone else.

Troll for Trump11 votes

Talon pigeonholed into roaming 24/7 Katarina oh boy jumpy jumpy Fizz they didn't fix his main issue, and somehow made him even worse for the game Graves isn't an ADC anymore Quinn isn't an ADC anymore Yorick is extremely pigeonholed into splitpushing Khazix pigeonholed into isolation. I think that's what Riot wanted, though, even with his initial release. An assassin completely based on 1v1ing isolated targets Rengar still a problem Ryze still a problem Skarner OP and then wiped off the face of Earth Sona even more spammy Swain is pretty dead, in part due to grievous wounds Teemo just got worse overall, but the 10 min shrooms were pretty toxic Vladimir wiped off the face of Earth

There have been great successes with reworks, but also a great number of failures.

Stephenizgod3 votes

Talon - He is actually really strong in a 1v1, at level 2 he can get First Blood pretty easily.
Khazix - Isolation? Only if you are a tank... If you aren't he can kill you in a couple seconds regardless of whether you are isolated or not. I was pretty surprised the first time a 0/2 level 4 Kha dove me under turret and 100-0 me and jumped out.... now i just roll my eyes.

Mira Arya Enthe10 votes

Wow, I actually REALLY appreciate you Malicious Metal for making a post on how bad the Malzahar rework was. As a former Malz main I said so from the start. But when we all told them not to focus on the minions during the Q/A on the rework? That is exactly what they did. They turned a void mage into a spawning pool. I am glad you made this post. It will be ignored just like your Morde posts tho. But thank you, truly.

Malicious Metal5 votes

Well, it HAD to be said. Can't just idly sit by and twirl one's thumbs and just pretend the rework was "fine".

His entire play style has been changed for the worse, he doesn't even play like a mage anymore. Slinging spells and combos are not even important to him anymore.

W->R is the ONLY combo you need.

Old Malz had to combo Pool, E, R and MAYBE Q in order to get the setup to kill someone. But then he managed to melt almost any champion, regardless if squishy or tank.

Hay5eed9 votes

When I saw the Malz "rework" I was very disappointed with the Riot development team. It felt very lack luster and as if they didn't really put any time or effort into it. Like a kid that waits until last minute to do an essay.

"Should we change his passive?"

-"Uhhhhh...sure why not? Give him a Banshee's veil, he builds that right?"

"Well since we are getting rid of his minion passive, should we just scrap it or make it an actual ability?"

-"No, lets make it his W".

"And what of his current W? The huge AOE pool that is good for farming or pushing lane?"

-"Just staple that shit on his Ult".

It was so stupid.

Also, when is riot going to figure out that giving champions items as abilities is not fun?

Doesn't work on Fizz (item 3157) Doesn't work on Yasuo (item 3031) Doesn't work on Malzahar (item 3102)

Just stop doing it.

Saianna8 votes

https://www.awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif

Somewhere in 2014 I made a suggestion in FireFall forum about re-reworking something to what it used to be.

That's the gif I received.

Malzahar won't get another rework not now, nor ever. Just like Mordecaiser didn't receive any major fixes after hundreds of your posts. And why? Cause they don't give a damn, sadly.

(I'd love to see old malza tho)

deadlychuck5 votes

That's the weird part, it's not like they need to rework him again. They could change him back and he'd probably be about where he use to be. Low play rate, high win rate, low ban rate.

Nothing wrong with that.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

This desperate former main alert

MrWasjig8 votes

I did, and still fucking hate new Malzahar. Every time I play the champion it's in the naive hope that it'll feel like playing his old kit, which for all it's problems actually felt FUN! Because you actually had control over who you want dead.

The Voidlings weren't even a major part of his kit, in fact as his old passive was just something to fill the void (pun intended), If you asked anyone who played old Malz, nobody would say "Oh yeah his Voidlings were integral and an important part of his kit" Nobody! They are so unresponsive and arduous to control and it always feels like they take your commands as a vague suggestion more than a command when you Malefic Visions something.

But the worst part of it all is that his entire fucking kit is built as a crutch around those loathsome little scuttly fuckers! You use your E for nothing other than an "Oi dipshits, attack this thing" button, given that it does less damage that a piss in the wind, his Q is now nothing more than an "Extend duration of 'Attack this thing' spell that is your E" and Malzahar's ultimate, oh what did they do to you!? It used to be his biggest high moment! Where you chose one unlucky motherfucker who didn't get to play League of Legends that day and watch their healthbar melt! Now? "I press R.....person stand still. Person still live" Yawn fest!

His rework was atrocious and I hate it....on top of it solving zero of the problems his old kit had. Except now playing Malzahar is no fun for the Malzahar player.

KETSU05 votes

" Except now playing Malzahar is no fun for the Malzahar player."

that the problem i have with riot, they're so hell bent on making it more fun for the loser instead of the winner with these, just look at the assassin reworks man, all of them were just nerfs.

sobi9992 votes

Why does riot believe reworking champs makes the game interesting? I see everyone disliking the reworks atleast 90% of the time. They should focus on balancing more and on tweaking the forgotten champions so they stay viable (urgot, nunu, teemo, azir) and etc.

Verdade9 votes

Poppy Sion Graves Fiora Gangplank MissFortune Yorick All these reworks have been awesome...

sobi9991 votes

{quoted}

Poppy Sion Graves Fiora Gangplank MissFortune Yorick All these reworks have been awesome...

i don't know, Sion, GP and yorick are probably the only ones i have seen positive feedback on. The rest nahh..

Verdade6 votes

Rest were numerically too good on their release, but are toned down and pretty good right now. Poppy and Fiora used to be terribly designed, they're much, MUCH better now.

Baron Perenolde4 votes

Not a fan of Gangplank's rework, honestly. His playstyle just feels too wussy for a bloodthirsty pirate, and his barrels have caused him to be nerfed repeatedly. His old kit wasn't flashy but I liked that I could play him in any role...

3TWarrior3 votes

I liked that he was actually a lane-bully and could buff his entire team and himself

now he's all about "where's the barrel? didn't see me toss it, better run away then!"

not to mention he became a stereotype for every pirate and ghost pirate there is...

I miss the Jolly Roger...

the man who would laugh as he danced about the battlefield, slinging bullets and slashes alike while he ate his oranges and the joke "was k"

he doesn't feel like gangplank anymore

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