Support itemization is balanced and perfectly healthy

chipndip1·Jan 30, 2017·14 votes·599 views

So much so Camille support builds Redemption/Locket in pro play. Can we PLEASE do something so support items aren't more important than support CHAMPIONS? PLEASE?

33 Comments

Big LincolnJan 30, 20175 votes

maybe if enchanter supports weren't just different flavors of Janna

chipndip1Jan 30, 20174 votes

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder689/400x/63241689.jpg

Big LincolnJan 30, 20171 votes

Lulu Sona Karma reworks when

chipndip1Jan 30, 20172 votes

Never for the following reasons:

Lulu : I can't convince anyone that Lulu needs a rework. She's based on being an offensive/defensive pivot, but support itemization is heavily defensive. If the meta is geared to offense, Lulu has no items and no bases. If the meta is geared to defense, Lulu's outclassed by champs that are inherently stronger on defense.

Sona : Had her mini-rework which did nothing for her anyway. Besides, because she has an ultimate skin, Riot wouldn't want to give her any major skill changes. That's the logic I heard anyway.

Karma : She isn't even bad right now, given that she keeps up with that early game pressure that these mages bring.

Illâoi Evê SiônJan 30, 20172 votes

Don't you dare rework Lulu, Riot!

Big LincolnJan 30, 20172 votes

do it tbh

lulu is such a pain in the dick with her kit of you're melee but her base values are terrible and she needs AP in a role where she can't usually afford it

would love to see her have those dumb utility ratios replaced with better base values since AP support items are a thing of the past now.

Illâoi Evê SiônJan 30, 20173 votes

Maybe the should fix AP Support itemization then?

Big LincolnJan 30, 20171 votes

they don't want to tho which was my point

chipndip1Jan 30, 20172 votes

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder689/400x/63241689.jpg

Dominick DestineJan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Don't you dare rework Lulu, Riot!

Velkoz

AgeOfTheMageJan 30, 20171 votes

Orianna support <3

Dominick DestineJan 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tj8KXAP7,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-01-30T03:46:53.523+0000)

maybe if enchanter supports weren't just different flavors of Janna

50 Shades of Janna.

I'd read.

DunkinNoobsJan 30, 20172 votes

Pros are still playing with both pre-nerf Camille and pre-nerf redemption; both are significantly weaker on live servers.

RexSaurJan 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Pros are still playing with both pre-nerf Camille and pre-nerf redemption; both are significantly weaker on live servers.

I mean if we are going to be honest both got very, very light nerfs.

Camille is basically untouched (so still massively overpowered) while remdemption is still the same thing late game with just 100 hp less (which is still nothing as it still gives a good chunk of 300 which is fine for the price of the item).

chipndip1Jan 30, 20173 votes

Rexsaur, why does nobody realize these things?

DunkinNoobsJan 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I mean if we are going to be honest both got very, very light nerfs.

Redemption got nerfed so that it's garbage as a rush item, and given how broken it was in the mid game, that's a very appropriate way to nerf it. Camille still needs more nerfs and Riot realizes this, with nerfs on the pbe as we speak.

ChaddyFantomeJan 30, 20171 votes

That is a case of Camille being Broken, not support itemisation. The nerf to redemption actually put it in a fairly balanced state imo.

chipndip1Jan 30, 20173 votes

Fairly balanced in comparison to WHAT? Same for Locket, except Locket's always been the most broken of the two items given its instantaneous usage vs. Redemption's delay.

The issue is that Crucible is a cleanse and Ardent does nothing unless you already have a shield or heal in your kit. Redemption is just a clean way of allowing anyone to support. That level of aoe healing, but applicable on any champ in the game? And we're saying this is balanced? People will just get Locket, then get Redemption while it's scaling back to its former strength.

ChaddyFantomeJan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Fairly balanced in comparison to WHAT? Same for Locket, except Locket's always been the most broken of the two items given its instantaneous usage vs. Redemption's delay.

The issue is that Crucible is a cleanse and Ardent does nothing unless you already have a shield or heal in your kit. Redemption is just a clean way of allowing anyone to support. That level of aoe healing, but applicable on any champ in the game? And we're saying this is balanced? People will just get Locket, then get Redemption while it's scaling back to its former strength.

The redemption nerf made it to where champions that aren't goign deeper into Healing/shielding investment dont benefit as much from it now. Proplay isn't on the nerfed redemption patch. you aren't thinking this through at all.

Also, Ardent's Bonus applies on all healing and shielding, including redemption and Locket. it's just it's statline is more specialised to where most champs wouldn't opt it unless they fully benefit from it whereas Locket provides general defenses and Redemption just has HP.

Any non traditional support would be better off with any other ofensive item in that scenario.

chipndip1Jan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The redemption nerf made it to where champions that aren't goign deeper into Healing/shielding investment dont benefit as much from it now. Proplay isn't on the nerfed redemption patch. you aren't thinking this through at all.

Once again, what does one get in comparison to Redemption/Locket? Nothing compares to those two items even now. If anything does, name it and why. Any single item that's as potent as either of these two.

Also, Ardent's Bonus applies on all healing and shielding, including redemption and Locket. it's just it's statline is more specialised to where most champs wouldn't opt it unless they fully benefit from it whereas Locket provides general defenses and Redemption just has HP.

No champs actually opt for Ardent over these two items because Ardent's attack speed buff is really only useful for attack speed champs. Aoe sustain is always useful on any champ, coming from any champ. The issue with these items is that they're too universally applicable.

Ardent is actually a well-designed support item. It has a set niche of champs that'll buy it, and set situations where it's more or less useful. Redemption and Locket are basically buyable ults and that design isn't ok. I don't know why people defend it.

DynikusJan 30, 20171 votes

They're not more important though. Camille has a slow, stun, inescapable ult, and does true damage. Her kit just works as a support as well.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 30, 20171 votes

I'm with you. Support, as a role, has serious problems. I hope Camille in LCS shines a bright enough light for Riot to take notice. That's bonkers.

KuboxJan 30, 20171 votes

To be fair, Camille's kit is not that bad for a support. Long range engage, a slow, limited knockback and forcing a certain oppoent to stay within a certain zone. She's got many tools supports want.

Support itemization does suck however. But that is mainly because of how Riot has been "fixing" supports : by giving them items with powerful actives rather than passives or stats meant to bring out the inner potential of supports (I dream to see the day where supports actually have varied build paths), you create a world where the best supports are either whichever traditional support works with the actives best or any champion who's kit offers a certain niche that can still fulfill that duty with said items.

PPPPPPPPPPPP270Jan 30, 20171 votes

Back at the end of season 6 I thought the support role was doing really well. I couldn't think of a bad support pick that was commonly picked for supporting. Tahm Kench was probably the worst of the group of supports but he probably deserves to be like that because stupid his W was.

Do I still think of this? Still decent though itemization really needs a good hard look.

When I saw redemption and locket numbers, I thought we were going back to see more normal supports and less focus on offense. Those items were OP and no one can say otherwise.

LCS shows up and we see there's a lot of mage supports and though normal supports still get played. Then again redemption didn't get nerfed yet in the LCS. The rylais change made the item stupid cheap for support champions.

OP I think Riot will tone down those items for sure but it won't stop mage supports at all. They usually don't buy those items. We will see full AP supports if this keeps going. Are they healthy for the game? To me they aren't because a support should do no where near as much damage as the mid laner or the ADC late game. Early game it's acceptable to out damage your ADC because they scale hard late game compared to a normal support which scales very poorly with items usually. Mage supports ignore that weakness.

chipndip1Jan 30, 20171 votes

That's another topic I've talked to death that no one but you really listened to, anyway. This topic is about the balance between Locket/Redemption and every other support item in the game.

ErockandrollJan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

OP I think Riot will tone down those items for sure but it won't stop mage supports at all. They usually don't buy those items. We will see full AP supports if this keeps going. Are they healthy for the game? To me they aren't because a support should do no where near as much damage as the mid laner or the ADC late game. Early game it's acceptable to out damage your ADC because they scale hard late game compared to a normal support which scales very poorly with items usually. Mage supports ignore that weakness.

Mainly a good mage support does this, because they have strong kits, that simply work without the need for large amounts of scaling. And any champion reliant on their own kit, is going to be strongly bolstered by CDR as well as magic pen. (Both of which are cheaper than raw AP) Really a main issue with a poke support, is if you trade the scaling with base damages, they get more benefit from Mpen.

Though as a Support main, I will disagree with you on the issue of damage oriented supports. Those supports get that level of damage by trading off the utility they would have either from playing a different support, or from different itemization. And that trade off is fair.

In my opinion, their is only 3 things that a support absolutely has to do. 1) be able to function with a gold/xp deficit. 2) Operate in the Duo lane, and help out your ADC/bot laner. (by any means available to you) and 3) Be warder and chief, and take change in providing vision for your team. (With the eye items, theirs no excuse anymore.)

Other than that, their is no "What a support should do" or "What a support should be," that is completely relative to a) the particular support. b) the duo lane combo, and c) the team comp at large. The support taking the form of another carry is perfectly fine, as long as they are able to fill the 3 requirements I just mentioned.

This isn't to say they arn't OP at the moment. But rather that their is nothing inherently wrong with those supports, or that play style.

RexSaurJan 30, 20171 votes

The problem is that those 2 items are by far the strongest ones and they give too many generalist stats (health, armor and mr).

Basically the way to solve this is by make the item more situational stat wise, basically add AP, mana rengen, move speed, cdr, some other stuff.

And nerf the fuck out of the mages that go bot lane so they dont abuse them even harder.

chipndip1Jan 30, 20171 votes

Regardless of how right this is, no one listens to me when I say it.

AgeOfTheMageJan 30, 20171 votes

Braum Lets say you nerf locket, that is technically an indirect nerf to champs such as braum.

Dominick DestineJan 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Lets say you nerf locket, that is technically an indirect nerf to champs such as braum.

I'm pretty sure the argument presented by OP is ; Nerf support items. Buffs support champions to compensate.

AgeOfTheMageJan 30, 20171 votes

True, but knowing riots balanced team, they'll overbuff one

chipndip1Jan 30, 20171 votes

More like:

Change Locket/Redemption actives to something less universally applicable or change their stats to something less universally applicable.
Add more support items/rework the lousy support items.

chipndip1Jan 30, 20171 votes

That's a nerf to EVERY NON-MAGE SUPPORT IN THE GAME BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL OVER-DEPENDENT ON LOCKET.