@Ghostcrawler & @Meddler Dev/Diary Karma Successful Champion

Winterkill··18 votes·1,050 views

I watched the Dev Diary about what makes a successful champion. Yet again, here is another Karma main sitting here trying to convince a bunch of Developers why Karma is not a successful champion four years ago and why she still isn't one to this day.

SATISFYING TO PLAY Is Karma satisfying to play? No she is not. Her kit is all over the place and it really confuses people. What type of champion is Karma exactly in this game? The Developers have spent the past four years trying to make the current Karma a thing. They have done no work besides taking more from her and giving Karma a numbers buff on her shield. They have spent an unnecessary amount of time buffing her shield values and then a few months later nerfing it again, because of some new mechanic in the game that revolves around enhancing shields. They have done nothing the past four years but buff her shield values in a pathetic attempt at giving Karma satisfying to play.

Karma was satisfying to play before her rework . . . . well . . . more than she is currently. Right now all Karma is designed to do is buy shield enhancing items and press R+E. Her only damage ability is probably way to strong early game at the expense of being able to do nothing mid to late game as a mage, which is what players enjoyed about her before the champions VGU four years ago. The Developers took away the shield bomb because they refused to balance it and make it amazing, but they gave it to Ivern. Karma is not satisfying to play because you continue to ignore the real reasons true fans of Karma thought was satisfying about her. With the recent classification of Karma as no longer a mage but a full fledged support, makes true fans wonder if you will ever bring back what was actually satisfying about Karma.

RESONANT THEME

Nope. When Riot Games reworked her they took away everything fans loved about her. Literally the fans. Riot Games removed her fans and dress for a pathetic attempt at an actual theme that is not fully developed and poorly executed. If she is supposed to be a leader and embodiment of Ionia, where is this represented in her theme, art, kit, and character? It's not. The Development couldn't even be bothered to give her proper running and shield animations, give her original emotes, interactions with other champions, a decent voice actress, and more. They have the nerve to do all of this with Lux and Ryze 4 times but have nothing but an excuse as to why Karma, and quite frankly other champions, are ignored year after year. Meddler stated a few months ago that Ezreal deserves more work than Karma does. Soak it in guys because that is exactly what Meddler stated. He thinks a champion with not resonant theme, that had a decent one prior to her VGU and received backlash about removing, doesn't deserve one over a champion like Ezreal that has at least something to work off of.

SKILL-EXPRESSIVE

Nope. How is she necessarily skill expressive if she is sitting in the back-lines pressing R+E late game and buying shield enhancing items to increase the number values of that R+E ability? How is Karma this when she has on damage ability that all her power if funneled into that is blocked by the first target that is hit? She either provides a mass shield that increases movement speed, nukes one target to low health so another player can kill that target, or roots a said target in place with W. That's not very expressive. Her kit needs more damage options, more skill, choices, combos, and damage and skill that is expressed through-out her kit and not just active on one ability. Karma is skill-inexpressive.

FAIR

Karma teeters between being fair and balanced to being completely useless. She is balanced at the expense of being nothing else but being balanced. When her shield values are over-buffed she is a nuisance to play against so they nerf the reason they buffed her to begin with. Shielding enhancing items, masteries, and other mechanics seem to dictate how strong and useful Karma is . . . when the Developers have said numerous times in the past they don't want that to be true. Why is Karma the ladder to everything you preach? Riot just nerfed her a few patches ago for the very reason she was buffed into the meta and worlds . . . and that was because they fixed shield enhancing values and certain support items. Look at where Karma is now? The same place she was years ago with no regard of any of the terrible work that was done to her in the first place.

UNIQUE

This is the biggest issue with Karma. She is not unique and what was unique about her was taken away from her. The Developers intentionally did this because, lets be real, they wanted to give it to another champion. What is so unique about an ability like Q that had to have a CC mechanic tied to it just to be useful, when her previous Q was more enjoyable and unique to the identity players loved about Karma? What is so unique about W when it is basically a LB/Morgana tether with a Fiddles heal? Before she could tether allies and the slow was pretty unique. Karma's biggest injustice was the removal of shield bomb, her E. Out of everything on Karma, the shield bomb is what fans miss the most. Shield bomb was unique and interesting on Karma. It is now on Ivern and balanced for Ivern when it could have been for Karma. Karma's current R+E is nothing more than an Iron Locket of Solari active with a speed boost. Is that unique to the game and Karma? It sure isn't.


My problem with Karma is not necessarily the rework itself. Champions receive bad reworks and that's ok. It's the work after that really gets me annoyed. Why was Aatrox and LB rushed for a rework in half the amount of time Karma has been waiting for four years now? Why was Lux's character, kit and theme worked on more than Karma when the Developers know she failed the five things that make a successful champion? The only reason she is ever considered meta and played in worlds is when Karma's shield values are buffed, but are nerfed because of shield enhancing items and other mechanics. Why was Ryze worked on 4 times and a champion like Karma is ignored for four years now?

I can go on about Karma but this is so much more than just about Karma. Karma is the second champion, in my opinion, that has received the worst rework/VGU in LoL history. Where is the Morde work? He is honesty worse than Karma but is being ignored for Ryze reworks, rushed LB and Aattrox reworks, and a Lux theme development. What about Rengar? I have the answer to all of the questions I just asked. RIOT GAMES DOES NOT CARE. These Developers create situations for themselves, like failing reworks on favorite or more popular champions than Karma, Morde and Rengar. They always have an excuse to never work on Karma, Morde and Rengar but always a reason to work on Ryze, Lux, Ezreal, Aatrox, LB, Azir, Kalista, and more. They don't care about a champion like Karma for four years now and it is clear that they probably never will.

If they Development team knows for a fact that Karma fails all 5 reasons they give for a successful champion and is only ever, if for the wrong reasons, considered balance and useful in the game is a numbers buff . . . why do they always have an excuse and reason to never work on her for four years now? They just don't care.

27 Comments

IxtaliKing9 votes

When I watched that Dev diary Karma was the 1st thing I thought of. The "Satifying to play" pillar is subjective to be fair, but I personally am not finding her satisfying and haven't for a while.

The "Fair" pillar depends on whether she's viable or not, apparently if she's viable in Solo Q, she's oppressive and pick/ban in competitive so...

The rest of those pillars? She gets almost no marks at all. For "Skill expressive" she has nothing but a skill shot, she has absolutely no "Resonant theme" (or discernable theme at least) and she's not "Unique" in the slightest.

I'm pretty sure there is no Rioter willing to gamble their credibility to say she's successful against the criteria they set out, they know she isn't.

h5LYF41Lam8 votes

karma in the LCS is horrible,just walking around all game waiting to press R+E,which is the most effective way to play the champion. both karma and janna need changes in their kits maybe even small reworks

Ariel the Cruel7 votes

why do they always have an excuse and reason to never work on her for four years now? They just don't care.

I don't think the issue is them not caring. It's more likely that Skarma gets "ignored" because they do care. Just not about her. The relaunch was a mistake on many levels. It was Riot's first attempt at one. And they reworked a champion that was polarizing even internally (I think it was Morello who claimed to have never liked her kit - don't quote me on it).

After the rework, they eventually managed to homogenize develop a new player-base for her. And that is the problem. They're reached a point where any work on her is going to create significant back-lash. Either from the old player-base, or the new. Therefore, it's not practical for them to touch her anymore. She's a land mine waiting to go off and the bomb squad is missing.

It's sad and disappointing that they would allow (S)karma to rot away in a hole they dug. But I can't blame them for not wanting to dig it any deeper.

Is Karma satisfying to play? No she is not. Her kit is all over the place and it really confuses people. . . . Right now all Karma is designed to do is buy shield enhancing items and press R+E.

Karma actually has 3 [semi-]viable builds. The problem is she has only 1 skill and two wasted abilities for each.

Mage build: Q. Sub-par shield scaling after support items update. Tether range too short to not get blown up.

Tank build: W Minimal AP for Q scaling. Sub-par shield scaling after support items update.

Support Build: E Minimal AP for for Q scaling. Tether range too short to not get blown up.

She was supposed to combo those abilities (W-E-Q2 for example). But they simply aren't strong enough to work without an entire build behind them (beyond the 10-15 minute mark).

The build diversity is nice. But there's never really a good option on her anymore. :/

The Developers took away the shield bomb because they refused to balance it and make it amazing, but they gave it to Ivern. . . . Nope. When Riot Games reworked her they took away everything fans loved about her.

A late-game scaling support (in a time where supports bought boots and 10 000 wards) was confusing. People didn't know where to take her. Insert modern LoL.

A political leader acting on the front-lines of a fight wasn't very interesting or unique. So she was replaced with a warmonger throwing Hadokens. (>_>)

Getting stronger while losing is counter-intuitive and unhealthy for the game. (old Passive) Irelia Olaf Tryndamere

%health heals on a damaging ability left allies confused and appeared inconsistent. (old Q) I notice %health effects are making a roaring come-back these days because they're easier to balance. Go figure.

Nobody understood what this ability did and it was too reliant on allies too feel good. (old W) She appeared twice on the champion rotation. Her release week, and the week after. I wonder why nobody knew what she did. I'm also glad she couldn't tether enemies back then. Oh wait. Also, Braum, Rakan, item 3050, item 3109, and [Stone-born Pact] need reworked.

Shield bombing wasn't fair because it punished enemies for doing what they should have. (old E) But we kept in anyways. Because we're Rito.

Upgrading basic abilities is an interesting and unique mechanic that we can use to make her really stand out. (old R) . . . Until we give it to Heimerdinger . But Skarma can buy hers back with the new passive. So it's still unique!

Having non-standard skill allocations was confusing and inconsistent with the rest of the game. It also forced us too stretch out the power progression which doesn't feel good for the player. (old ult wasn't purchasable - old skills had 6 ranks) Jayce But it's ok on this guy because his ult only gives him entirely new abilities with their own cooldowns. Which means we can make the 6th rank like a mini- Syndra Passive. (- -_- -)

-------------

Riot has retained or returned everything they claimed made old Karma a problem. This, more than anything, is what I find most upsetting about the Replacement.

. . . Except for the "politician on a battlefield" theme. I'm watching to see what happens with that Swain Rework though...

IxtaliKing1 votes

You got everything together so nicely +1

inplane5 votes

Karma needs a full-blown rework with how she is right now. She's just unappealing in almost every aspect. Especially her kit and thematic design. I still loved her kit back in Season 4 and 5 due to how fun and flexible it was thanks to E's boomshield. Now that's removed because LCS doesn't need it. Looking at her concept art, it looks like such a missed opportunity to truly re-imagine Old Karma instead of outright deleting her.

https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/b/b2/Karma_Rework3.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140618122220

All of these look way more awesome and intricate than how Karma looks right now. It's like Riot has no idea what to do with her ever since they let a rookie designer rework her 4 years ago. They even gimped her kit and left her in an undesirable state Mordekaiser-style because she's goddamn obnoxious to play against thanks to itemization changes and unwarranted buffs.

Onandaga4 votes

Karma feels like a bargain brand champ to me in how generic her abilities feel.

Snolly2 votes

Hey Winter,

This might sound a bit off topic, but I just published my own Karma rework idea, and I'd love some suggestions from you :)

In case you're interested, here's the link: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/es/c/gameplay-balance/KZHqYOxB-my-own-karma-rework

I am aware of how Riot has pretty much ignored her for years, but I keep my hopes up for a future rework that makes both new and old Karma players happy. The best we can do for now is keep showing our interest in her so the devs stay aware of our demands.

RizHippoKhan2 votes

honestly i forgot that karma existed,that poor champ needs some thematic love, i dont know what am i supposed to be as karma ,feels like an awkward mess between morganna and janna xD and worse than both

AquariusGine1 votes

i couldnt have said it better myself

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

I love current karma. It's so much better than the abomination she was in the past. At best I miss the shield bomb but I would rather eat sand than have to play original karma again.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I feel like at this point, you're just kinda stating the obvious.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

I'm honestly rather sick of Karma players complaining about her rework.

And yes, I know the hypocrisy what with me numerous times talking about Skarner's trainwreck of a Juggernaut rework but you'd think people would have moved on from the complaining phase by now and gone on to the, "Here how bout you rework her into a champ like this that does X and Y?"

They are not going to magically revert her after four years of the current Karma. I just want Karma players to stop whining and moaning and actually talk about what they'd like to see from another rework. Something freaking productive.

IxtaliKing1 votes

We've been making suggestions for years bro lol

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Not that I've seen at any rate. Any "suggestions" have amounted to the person basically just asking for a revert or some approximation of a revert. If Karma is to be reworked again then it would require a Sion level rework, one where her abilities are completely changed.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Sion was a full relaunch, Riot have already stated that if they did rework it would be similar scale to the roster updates, which tend to change at least 1 skill like you said.

There have many kinds of rework suggestions, from the small, to the large. Those were the most popular and just so happened to be from the same person, SilverSquid, our resident Karma expert.

Skorch1 votes

You know, i cant help but feel that this is biased to make sure all 5 fail... I dont know what gives me that vibe.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Which ones do you think she passes?

Skorch1 votes

Personally i dont play too much Karma, nor did i play old Karma. But i would say pretty highly, like a 3.5/5.

Resonant Theme - I will say for a karmic fighter, i can see it. People complain that "She spreads peace by fighting lulwut?" but its a game where the characters are meant to kill eachother. She needs combat abilities. And they visually look fitting.

Satisfying - GOD yes. There is not better feeling than ulting your shield and dominating a teamfight. Or landing 2 successive Qs or a Q and a RQ and just chunking people out of lane. And the Tether SOUNDS satisfying.

Skill expressive - Yes, her R gives her a lot of diversity and using what at the right time, as well as properly placing yourself in teamfights for your tether is quite skill intensive.

I would ding her in the last 2

Fair - Being a support fighting her is frusterating. Her more than most. But i am only dinging a half point since she suffers with basic support issues.

Unique - Not really. If you never played league i doubt from her base splash you can guess anything about her.

And old Karma doesnt matter IMO. I dont care if she scored 5/5 She was reworked for a reason. Instead of using old karma as an excuse to rework again, just talk about her future rework you want.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Resonant Theme - I will say for a karmic fighter, i can see it. People complain that "She spreads peace by fighting lulwut?" but its a game where the characters are meant to kill eachother. She needs combat abilities. And they visually look fitting.

"Karmic fighter" isn't her theme, and if it was it would be a failure since there is nothing karmic about her. The only thing close to a possible theme that she has is in her title, "Enlightened One". Even as an enlightened spirit mage her kit does little to demonstrate this theme, but it has good potential. The fact that most people don't know what to make of Karma thematically means she fails hard in this department, objectively speaking.

Satisfying - GOD yes. There is not better feeling than ulting your shield and dominating a teamfight. Or landing 2 successive Qs or a Q and a RQ and just chunking people out of lane. And the Tether SOUNDS satisfying.

This is subjective, satisfaction will be hit and miss for any champ depending on who you ask. As someone who has mained Karma for a few years I personally don't think she's satisfying anymore. She used to be, I mean she still chunks with RQ - cool. But RW? Less ticks and a bonus root instead of bonus damage? That's not satisfying at all imo. Doing a 5 man RE feels good, but it felt better when it gave less shield and dealt damage. She used to feel like a real utility mage, as opposed to a generic, generalist support.

Skill expressive - Yes, her R gives her a lot of diversity and using what at the right time, as well as properly placing yourself in teamfights for your tether is quite skill intensive.

Not really, no. Her R used to be an ability that required good macro skill and knowledge but not anymore. All of her decision are made for her. Are you mid? Build glass canon and use RQ. Are you top? Build tank and use RW. Are you support? Build utility and use RE. Whatever Mantra you build for, the other Mantras will be inferior.

Staying in range to secure your tether is not skill expression and is certainly not skill intensive, it's fulfilling a basic condition. Azir's shurima shuffle is skill intensive, River's animation cancelling combos are skill intensive. Not Karma's tether. There is no skill expression in Karma's kit outside of her very basic Q skillshot, take this from a Karma main.

You'd ding her in the last 2, but the only one which is possible for her to score in really is Satisfaction. I love Karma, but that's the reality.

Instead of using old karma as an excuse to rework again, just talk about her future rework you want.

Now, I know you wouldn't just be aiming this comment at me without checking my post history... that wouldn't make sense. The main reason I use the boards is to discuss Karma's future and place in this game. You have to raise the issues before you can talk about a solution.

Skorch1 votes

The issue with the 5 pillars, is how subjective you can make them. Riot has their own thoughts on these and they may be different than yours. Just because you (subjective to all people using them as a reason to complain about champions not specific to YOU) dislike a champion doesnt mean they fail RIOTs 5 points.

And i can say for sure i highly HIGHLY doubt there is a single champion on that list that fails all 5. Like people are suggesting with Karma.

Cause if that was the case they got reworked. And even then you could argue that old Yorick and Urgot, some of the least played champions in the game, hit at least 1 of these pillars if not more.

Im not saying you specifically, but people need to stop pretending that their champion is a COMPLETE FAILURE from a design standpoint, when in actuality they just dont like them.

IxtaliKing3 votes

The issue with the 5 pillars, is how subjective you can make them.

Only one of those pillars are subjective, and that's satisfaction. The rest have a point of reference.

Riot has their own thoughts on these and they may be different than yours.

Riot have given examples of how they grade champions using Aatrox, Thresh, Morgana and Nunu. There's enough in that video to apply these pillars to other champs.

Just because you (subjective to all people using them as a reason to complain about champions not specific to YOU) dislike a champion doesnt mean they fail RIOTs 5 points.

It's not about disliking the champ and failing them against Riot's criteria, it's about having a discussion about her design where it delivers and where it doesn't.

And i can say for sure i highly HIGHLY doubt there is a single champion on that list that fails all 5. Like people are suggesting with Karma.

With Karma there's only one pillar that is really up for debate, and that's satisfaction. Meddler for example said he didn't believe Karma to be sufficiently satisfying, at a time when quite a few people were arguing that she was fine (a year ago).

She can't deliver a resonant theme because nobody even knows for sure what her theme is supposed to be. If you ask a Rioter about a characters theme usually they have no problem answering, if you ask them about Karma they won't answer. Her lore doesn't present a discernable/coherent theme, it's basically just a rehash of the story of when the fire nation attacked.

I did a thread about her theme asking Riot for clarification, they didn't respond, but the consensus in the thread was that she was probably supposed to be an Enlightened spiritual leader.

She clearly has no skill expression outside of her Q skillshot, the rest of her abilities are point and click abilities with a single purpose. No nuance. Again, I love Karma, but it's true.

Im not saying you specifically, but people need to stop pretending that their champion is a COMPLETE FAILURE from a design standpoint, when in actuality they just dont like them.

I agree she's not a complete failure, that's extreme. But her design is flawed. Her Mantra changes from 5.10 are a proven failure since they didn't deliver on what they set out to achieve, and created more problems than they solved.

ZapMyHeart4 votes

{quoted}

Im not saying you specifically, but people need to stop pretending that their champion is a COMPLETE FAILURE from a design standpoint, when in actuality they just dont like them.

Wasn't Karma's relaunch a complete failure?

A simple look at the process could tell you how much of a trainwreck it was.

-Gave it to a first time designer who didn't know anything about designing or Karma due to shady Riot politics with Guinsoo (who was only about ~30% done based on his update in late Dec after 4 months. Karma was released in mid March of the following year). -Required several consecutive buffs through multiple patches because she was sitting at a sub-par 42-43% winrate. -Removed a lot of what fans liked about her, including her actual fans. -No coherent theme with a twin dragons thing just for looks. Ugly colors that doesn't even depict her from Ionia. -Terrible lore that reeks of a potential copyright lawsuit from Avatar: The Last Airbender. -Systematic removal of her old skills to define her into a specific role. Any other champions have this many skill removals from their kit?

If it was such a good relaunch, there wouldn't be this many issues.

Skorch1 votes

Im also not saying it was a good relaunch. Most of those things are, yes while bad, doesnt detract from what she is now.

As well as a bad winrate on launch doesnt dictate good or bad gameplay. Do you not know of Ivern, Bard, or Syndra.

ZapMyHeart4 votes

{quoted}

Im also not saying it was a good relaunch. Most of those things are, yes while bad, doesnt detract from what she is now.

As well as a bad winrate on launch doesnt dictate good or bad gameplay. Do you not know of Ivern, Bard, or Syndra.

While it doesn't detract what she is now, it speaks volumes. If it took them 4+ years to get them to where she is now, they could have used that time and resource to actually correct what was bad. Instead, they kept trying to hold onto their egos and fix something to prove to themselves that it was a good relaunch, when it clearly wasn't. Keep in mind, her current version is relatively stable, but bland and outclassed by a lot of other champions. Other champions are clearly defined. She is not.

Did you not catch what I wrote? She had buffs on consecutive patches throughout the months. Did the champions you mentioned have that many like Karma did back to back?

Winterkill1 votes

{quoted}

While it doesn't detract what she is now, it speaks volumes. If it took them 4+ years to get them to where she is now, they could have used that time and resource to actually correct what was bad. Instead, they kept trying to hold onto their egos and fix something to prove to themselves that it was a good relaunch, when it clearly wasn't. Keep in mind, her current version is relatively stable, but bland and outclassed by a lot of other champions. Other champions are clearly defined. She is not.

Did you not catch what I wrote? She had buffs on consecutive patches throughout the months. Did the champions you mentioned have that many like Karma did back to back?

Thank you.

We don't want a VGU. It would be nice but there are in fact worse champions than her. Lux is not worse than her though. It's all biased decions and they dont care.

Yuyiyo1 votes

I find her very satisfying to play, I play her mostly in the top lane (I'll admit, support karma feels terrible), her kit is very smooth and allows you to slow your enemy and speed up yourself, getting in and out of the skirmishes in top lane with good safety, almost being a lane bully to certain champions and then transitioning into a support-tank-battlemage hybrid in the mid to late game. It feels really satisfying to play in that way, imo.

I will agree, she lacks skill expression. It's mostly just using the right mantra at the right time, and positioning, but that isn't super hard to pick up on.

However, speeding and protecting a whole team with her RE is moderately in line with her theme as a leader. So I'd say she gets at least some thematic points for that. The rest of the kit not so much.

I'd be okay with a rework, but other champions need it so much more badly. I'd much rather have Morde reworked, for example, he needs it way more. She is viable, functions with multiple different builds, and has a unique niche as a battle mage support.

Winterkill3 votes

{quoted}

I find her very satisfying to play, I play her mostly in the top lane (I'll admit, support karma feels terrible), her kit is very smooth and allows you to slow your enemy and speed up yourself, getting in and out of the skirmishes in top lane with good safety, almost being a lane bully to certain champions and then transitioning into a support-tank-battlemage hybrid in the mid to late game. It feels really satisfying to play in that way, imo.

I will agree, she lacks skill expression. It's mostly just using the right mantra at the right time, and positioning, but that isn't super hard to pick up on.

However, speeding and protecting a whole team with her RE is moderately in line with her theme as a leader. So I'd say she gets at least some thematic points for that. The rest of the kit not so much.

I'd be okay with a rework, but other champions need it so much more badly. I'd much rather have Morde reworked, for example, he needs it way more. She is viable, functions with multiple different builds, and has a unique niche as a battle mage support.

I politely disagree. Karma's entire balance, place in the meta, and playability is based off of how strong her shields are and what shield enhancing item/mechanic is in the game. Karma is nothing but a literal shield bot.

There is nothing about Karma that hits the five pillars head on. You do not convince me and Riot isn't. Riot hasn't even communicated about Karma's kit, theme, art and place in this game. They are too busy spending the last year working on everything for Lux that a champion like Karma really needs.

I'm saying this because everyone seems to think Karma mains want a VGU. No. We want work done on her that isn't counterproductive. They remove everything that made her amazing and replace it with half worked on content that is already in the game. They spent literally the past year working on everything for Lux that hits the five pillars. It's been four years for Karma and nothing.

This Development team ruined Lablanc, Aatrox and others. Now they have to push other champions to the side and make them wait even more years, because this Development decides to work on things for the sake of change but not who actually deserves it. No Developer cares.

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