WHY THE FUNK SRE THEY NERFING RIVEN ON THE PBE

blueberrypancake·May 6, 2015·6 votes·1,952 views

According to Surrender@20

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/05/56-pbe-update.html

Riven

*** Base movement speed** reduced to 340 from 345

*** Wind Slash (R)** missile speed reduced to 1600 from 2200.

I know people hate Riven, but Rito nerfing a champ that isn't even part of the meta. YEAH NERFING A NONMETA CHAMP, like when the last time the did that to a champion. Oh yeah, Eve in Season 2 that left her so underpowered that she needed a rework leaving her the weakest champ in LoL for a year.

I like Riot but the better be implementing Buffs on the PBE to compensate

I check the S@20 site a decent amount and I do not believe this was balancing of a buff they gave her previously on the PBE

Note: I could be wrong but I seriously doubt it because S@20 almost always says if it is still a buff compared to live even though if it says something is being reduced one day on the PBE

I really hope this nerf actually has a later purpose other than just making BoxBox getting pissed xD

37 Comments

IcyPepperMay 6, 201510 votes

YEAH NERFING A NONMETA CHAMP

54.38% win rate 14.68% pick rate

YEAH SHE'S SO NONMETA, LIKE NOBODY PLAYS HER AND SHE'S DEFINITELY NOT POPULAR AT ALL.

kcStrangerMay 7, 20151 votes

For the record, that win rate number is deceptive (referencing lolking for this...). Her win rate is only that high in Diamond, Platinum maybe. Overall, she's more like 52%.

IcyPepperMay 7, 20151 votes

And her pick rate is about 15.83% (at least I think that's what popularity means).

She is far from nonmeta. An above average pick rate with an above average win rate means she's a successful, meta champion. I won't give my opinions on whether or not she deserves to be nerfed, but she's definitely "in" as far as the meta goes.

kcStrangerMay 7, 20152 votes

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you there. She may not be meta in terms of pro team play, but she definitely is as far as solo queue goes. In my opinion, nerfing her is justifiable in about the same way as nerfing Katarina or Akali.

IcyPepperMay 7, 20151 votes

Honestly, I'm not sure it's exactly nerfs she needs, but rather some tweaking.

But hey, I'm no balancing expert. Riven, from what I've seen, only lacks counterplay when she's fed due to how her kit works (and most champions are like that, really), but otherwise is manageable. I don't hate her, I just don't like "those" kind of players, but that goes for any champion really.

kcStrangerMay 8, 20151 votes

I feel you. I think that nerfs are often a stopgap measure when what a champion really needs is a rework of some kind. Nerfs are easier because you just change some numbers rather than making qualitative changes to a champion's kit.

ProvengreilMay 6, 20157 votes

Dude this doesn't seem to hit any of her core issues anyway. Those being:

Shield based on damage and mobility w/ hard CC and damage, all with no resource.

and yet, I can't think of a healthy way to nerf her because without such low cooldowns, she's garbage, and without high damage, she's pointless. An actual balance would be a rework.

RobertsmashMay 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Dude this doesn't seem to hit any of her core issues anyway. Those being:

Shield based on damage and mobility w/ hard CC and damage, all with no resource.

and yet, I can't think of a healthy way to nerf her because without such low cooldowns, she's garbage, and without high damage, she's pointless. An actual balance would be a rework.

Energy, shield scales with AP.

Sightless66May 7, 20151 votes

shield scales with AP.

So, basically just a dash with no durability past the early game. Sounds silly. Might as well just completely scrap it and put something else in.

RobertsmashMay 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So, basically just a dash with no durability past the early game. Sounds silly. Might as well just completely scrap it and put something else in.

We can adjust base values, but I believe a dash on that cooldown with ANY shield is a viable ability. Not OP like now, but viable.

Sightless66May 7, 20151 votes

Vliable? Barely. Interesting or well-designed? Absolutely not. It's a short dash, with what would be a useless shield. The shield would become a pointless aspect of the skill later game no matter what base values you give it, because it won't scale and she can't afford to build resistances to keep it up. Including the shield at all if it's going to become almost completely useless is poor design. If we wanted to go down this patch, scrapping the shield (or even the entire skill) and redesigning would be a much, much better direction.

I really hate the idea of making it AP scaling. It's just a way of guaranteeing that the shield is going to fall off extremely hard. AP scaling is fine if the champion can actually build AP, but if they can't, you either need another ratio or the champion needs to be able to stack resistances. I mean, the only other champions with only AP-scaling on their shields who can't build AP are Shen and Skarner, and neither is at all like Riven (although, the feeling of complete uselessness that Shen's W shield gives you is certainly something Riven's would replicate) . Why should we give Riven a shield that can't scale when almost no other champions are subjected to that?

I mean, can you sell me on this? Why should this be the thing we choose to do to Riven? Why should she be one of the only champions in the game with a non-scaling shield? What is the value in that kind of design? Why shouldn't it be allowed to get even slightly stronger throughout the game? How will that make it an interesting and unique skill?

I'm sorry if I'm laying this on a little thick, but I think this is one of the worst possible solutions to any balance and/or design problems with Riven. It's one of the worst design ideas to ever come out of the forums (and I'm really not trying to say that is where you've gotten the idea from, but it has been festering there for years). It's just taking a strong skill and completely breaking what it brings to her design. I could understand reducing the scaling on the shield because it might be too much mid/late game, but I seriously can't see even a single positive point for completely removing the scaling from the shield.

RobertsmashMay 7, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Vliable? Barely. Interesting or well-designed? Absolutely not. It's a short dash, with what would be a useless shield. The shield would become a pointless aspect of the skill later game no matter what base values you give it, because it won't scale and she can't afford to build resistances to keep it up. Including the shield at all if it's going to become almost completely useless is poor design. If we wanted to go down this patch, scrapping the shield (or even the entire skill) and redesigning would be a much, much better direction.

I really hate the idea of making it AP scaling. It's just a way of guaranteeing that the shield is going to fall off extremely hard. AP scaling is fine if the champion can actually build AP, but if they can't, you either need another ratio or the champion needs to be able to stack resistances. I mean, the only other champions with only AP-scaling on their shields who can't build AP are Shen and Skarner, and neither is at all like Riven (although, the feeling of complete uselessness that Shen's W shield gives you is certainly something Riven's would replicate) . Why should we give Riven a shield that can't scale when almost no other champions are subjected to that?

I mean, can you sell me on this? Why should this be the thing we choose to do to Riven? Why should she be one of the only champions in the game with a non-scaling shield? What is the value in that kind of design? Why shouldn't it be allowed to get even slightly stronger throughout the game? How will that make it an interesting and unique skill?

I'm sorry if I'm laying this on a little thick, but I think this is one of the worst possible solutions to any balance and/or design problems with Riven. It's one of the worst design ideas to ever come out of the forums (and I'm really not trying to say that is where you've gotten the idea from, but it has been festering there for years). It's just taking a strong skill and completely breaking what it brings to her design. I could understand reducing the scaling on the shield because it might be too much mid/late game, but I seriously can't see even a single positive point for completely removing the scaling from the shield.

Excuse my low Silver opinion:

Udyr only gets a Triforce that grants 30 AP and has a shield that scales with 50% AP. It grants him lifesteal, but it isn't a dash. Lee Sin has a small shield that also grants him lifesteal and is a targeted dash. There's nothing wrong with a bruiser having a small shield to take the harass of getting in range, but it's a bit disheartening to see someone with 2 AOE hard CCs tank your harass by gaining another health bar. In all honesty, let's consider it within the context of her kit:

Nearly unrivaled mobility (2nd to Kalista)- Q starts cooldown after first cast, with CDR that's around 8 to 9 seconds. She can cast it again twice within 4 seconds. This means the Q mobility has a ~5 second downtime, just freeballing the math here. Valor has a cooldown of 6 seconds max rank- a dash with a shield that scales with AD, a stat for which, btw, she has a sizeable steroid on her low cooldown ultimate. Her third Q knocks up and her W, a 6-8 second CD, stuns long enough to get off an empowered AA. Oh, and just in case you get away from the hoppy rabbit that knocked you up and stunned you, she has a cone skill shot execute attached to her AD and attack range steroid, cuz why the hell not.

I'm not a champ designer, but common sense seems to indicate that, ideally, champs have to be one of two things: Killable or escapable? Sure, there are a few non-asassin champs that can kill a squishy as fast or faster than Riven (most of them being crit reliant melee ADCs) but I can't think of another bruiser who gets to point-blank CC and then DAMAGE the entire team while having a shield that scales on offensive stats. I'm not saying that with perfect coordination and extreme mechanical skill and a Thresh lantern, you can't escape Riven; I'm saying how is it fair that because she had a decent laning phase up top, your only options as a squishy are to try to escape 4-dashes-10-seconds-massive-shield lady, or fight the massive-damage-massive-shield-gapclosing lady?

You can't escape Riven and you can't kill her before she gets to you. You wanna give her a shield? There's no problem with an Udyr-esque shield tied to a low cooldown dash on the mobility queen of bruisers, but defence should not be such a strong point for her. Why does every ability Riven has have to be "OMG so effective amazing"? AP scaling shield would be good enough, because you know what? She needs an "OK" ability, (tbh I still think a ~250 hp shield-dash on a 5 second cooldown is more than OK on her kit) because the rest of her kit is pretty damn great.

Sightless66May 7, 20152 votes

I did forget those two, but neither of their shields are really like Riven's. Udyr is in the same camp as Skarner. He gets to build tons of resistances, so his shield actually does something, even with a low value. Lee Sin can choose to do the same. Assassin Lee Sin is a better example, but you can see how his shield stops meaning anything later in the game unless he shields a squishy. It's arguably one of the least interesting parts of his design when he's an assassin. Riven can not choose to build differently to support that shield. She has no options for making it even remotely useful. She does not have a bruiser's defensive itemization options.

You wanna give her a shield?

If I give her a shield, I want it to be because the shield will be useful. It's not Udyr-esque. Udyr's does significantly more, particularly since it isn't tied to a mobility skill so he can use it when he needs it. If the shield is going to be ineffective, why have it at all? The entire point of the shield is that she can use it absorb burst for a short period of time, which is useful because she can't get in as fast as other assassin champions.

She needs an "OK" ability,

An "OK" ability is not the same as boring ability. A short dash is pretty mediocre design-wise, don't you think?

I'm not a champ designer, but common sense seems to indicate that, ideally, champs have to be one of two things: Killable or escapable?

A champion can be escapable and hard to kill so long as their "hard to kill" only comes within a very limited timeframe. You have assassins with access to Zhonya's, Zed being able to completly negate damage with his ultimate, Katarina getting a damage reduction when she jumps, Lissandra's self-ult, Yi's meditate, etc... Riven's shield does have plenty of potential to fit within this pattern. It has a short duration and Riven does have to move predictably, which opens her up to CC during the period her shield is up. It might be a bit overtuned right now, but the principle is sound.

but defence should not be such a strong point for her.

Then lower the scaling, lower the duration, slightly up the cooldown, or take the entire shield away and put something else in. Don't just make it a shield that does nothing past a certain point of the game. That's seriously about the worst option there is.

PubgamerAUMay 7, 20154 votes

I just want to address one part you seem to be ignoring:

If riven's shield were changed to AP, she would be forced to build some kind of tank, lowering her damage a bit, and bringing her to an entirely reasonable place, instead of the "buy half an item, get 200 AD" position she's in right now.

Sightless66May 7, 20152 votes

instead of the "buy half an item, get 200 AD" position she's in right now.

She would still buy AD first. Her early game wouldn't suddenly change to her building tank items. She'd have 200 AD before buying defenses.

she would be forced to build some kind of tank,

Define "some kind of tank". I'm seeing her getting some flat health and nothing else. She does that now. Black Cleaver will keep her going throughout the majority of the game, until her shield falls off stupidly hard, so she might get something in the very late game, where Riven is typically not a problem anyway. I don't see her

But, let's say you are correct. As you've expressed it, the goal of this is ultimately just reducing her damage. Why not just do that then and not hit the shield? That would solve your problem while not shifting active defenses (the shield) into passive defenses (item durability).

I'm not ignoring this possibiliy, I think it's a situation to be avoided. I much, much prefer the situation where Riven has to use the shield intelligently to mitigate damage instead of building a defensive item and getting the same durability passively. If we have the option to force. That's why I hate this shield change. She's not going to stack resistances and have a strong shield. She'll get one health item, just like she sometimes does now. The shield is going to be worthless.

This is exactly why I'd rather nerf the shield or hit some of her offensive burst or even hit her base health and strengthen the shield instead of making the shield non-scaling. I don't want her to be able to just ignore the shield. She should have to make smart use of it. We should be moving her more in that direction. We shouldn't be allowing her to completely ignore the shield.

PubgamerAUMay 7, 20151 votes

If you're interested in forcing Riven's to use the shield intelligently, increase its cooldown significantly. Right now riven's can practically use their QWE one after the other without downtime.

If you nerf the shield, you force her to consider buying tank early on because buying straight damage means she's more of a glass cannon. Bruisers aren't designed to buy 100% damage and still be able to out-tank other bruisers who have to build some defense.

As you said, Riven's may still rush damage, but if you nerf her shield and they do, she's going to go splat if she tries being so aggressive in lane after a single kill.

If Riven builds some tank early to make up for the lost shield stats, then she doesn't have as much damage, and as such can't snowball as hard because she can't kill the enemy as easily.

As for the shield being 'worthless', it still provides a gap closer, and would still give you a small shield that doesn't protect you from 500 damage with a single AD item. It would essentially be just like Lee's shield, only instead of dashing to a champion, you can dash anywhere you want.

Sightless66May 7, 20151 votes

If you're interested in forcing Riven's to use the shield intelligently, increase its cooldown significantly.

That is a realistic option for balance. It's much better than removing the scaling. In principle, I'm not opposed to that change. I still think better options could be found (I much prefer lowering base health and shield duration), but it would at least be better than breaking the shield.

If you nerf the shield, you force her to consider buying tank early on because buying straight damage means she's more of a glass cannon.

You really don't. Her strength early on comes heavily from damage potential, not from the scaling on the shield. She's not going to get defensive items first. Even having just the base value on the shield can't force her to build a defensive item first.

Again though, I don't like this entire idea, because I'd much rather force her to be reliant on the shield for defenses instead of having her build some health and then be allowed to ignore the shield.

It would essentially be just like Lee's shield

I'm not seeing that as a positive. Lee's dash can be interesting because it can shield allies, traverse walls and serve as a setup for the directional kick. The personal shield often becomes just an afterthought, something you almost ignore. Riven's shield would similarly be ignored in favor of the short gapcloser, and the gapcloser by itself isn't a very interesting skill, particularly since it isn't a necessary setup to other parts of her kit. Even if it would still be technically useful in the context of her kit, it would be a pretty underwhelming and boring skill.

There are just better ways to accomplish any goal you have for nerfing Riven's kit.

RobertsmashMay 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I did forget those two, but neither of their shields are really like Riven's. Udyr is in the same camp as Skarner. He gets to build tons of resistances, so his shield actually does something, even with a low value. Lee Sin can choose to do the same. Assassin Lee Sin is a better example, but you can see how his shield stops meaning anything later in the game unless he shields a squishy. It's arguably one of the least interesting parts of his design when he's an assassin. Riven can not choose to build differently to support that shield. She has no options for making it even remotely useful. She does not have a bruiser's defensive itemization options.

And why can Riven not build defense? She can still do bruiser level damage- she has her passive AA damage amp and her AD steroid on her ult. She can afford to build some survivability and take her off the assassin level damage into a role more akin to Udyr or Jax. 1 or 2 damage items and the rest tank would give the shield meaning, and then she'd have to duel the carry instead of flash dash jump stun roflstomp them.

If I give her a shield, I want it to be because the shield will be useful. It's not Udyr-esque. Udyr's does significantly more, particularly since it isn't tied to a mobility skill so he can use it when he needs it. If the shield is going to be ineffective, why have it at all? The entire point of the shield is that she can use it absorb burst for a short period of time, which is useful because she can't get in as fast as other assassin champions.

Can't get in as fast? The only champion I feel is more inescapable is Vi (who has a small shield in her kit, btw). Riven's still pretty fast, and this isn't necessarily about speed; it's about her tenacity (English word meaning, not league meaning) and the inevitable lockdown: Once a Riven has you in her sights, you're not getting away unless she dies or you put screens of distance between you. And she's not dying unless the carries commit to doing damage. And if the carries commit to doing damage, they're getting roflstomped after taking out her pseudo-health bar.

An "OK" ability is not the same as boring ability. A short dash is pretty mediocre design-wise, don't you think?

I'll give you that, the dash-shield would be boring. You know what it is now? A dash-shield that's not just boring, but extremely effective. Boring, overpowered abilities are exactly the kind of things that get reworked, which I'm totally open to for this.

A champion can be escapable and hard to kill so long as their "hard to kill" only comes within a very limited timeframe. You have assassins with access to Zhonya's, Zed being able to completly negate damage with his ultimate, Katarina getting a damage reduction when she jumps, Lissandra's self-ult, Yi's meditate, etc... Riven's shield does have plenty of potential to fit within this pattern. It has a short duration and Riven does have to move predictably, which opens her up to CC during the period her shield is up. It might be a bit overtuned right now, but the principle is sound.

Alright: Zed can't hard CC anyone and is given brief untargetability, and he has energy. His W shadow has a respectable cooldown and he has no other way of mitigating damage to himself as far as immobilizing the damage, Riven has 2 hard CCs that cannot miss point blank. Katarina's damage (if not extremely fed) is tied almost completely to a long channel and she has no other protection or CC, and she has 1, albeit resetting, gapcloser. Lissandra literally gives up an ult cooldown, single target CC, and damage to become immobile and untargetable; the trade off is huge, she can't do single target damage during her stasis, she can't reposition, and she can't do it again 5 seconds later. Yi's damage reduction is tied to a channel, and it is a powerful ability I won't lie, but he can't do ANY damage during it, so it's quite fair.

Then lower the scaling, lower the duration, slightly up the cooldown, or take the entire shield away and put something else in. Don't just make it a shield that does nothing past a certain point of the game. That's seriously about the worst option there is.

Like I said, I'm all for a reworked E, but I'm just trying to make what's already here work. Riven could easily build resistances to make her shield meaningful even with an AP scaling and still do bruiser level damage.

Sightless66May 7, 20151 votes

And why can Riven not build defense? She can still do bruiser level damage- she has her passive AA damage amp and her AD steroid on her ult.

Her %AD multiplier on her ultimate. That doesn't have much value unless you have AD. Generally high AD ratios and low-duration CC don't help either. You're not going to make a bruiser Riven work as effectively as a heavy AD riven. It's not a good option. She can't work as effectively with a bruiser build as with a high AD build, and she won't even if the shield gets nerfed

Even if she could pull it off, it's a much less interesting paradigm. Having her be passively defensive and not need to use the shield to strategically mitigate damage or her mobility to avoid damage. If Riven becomes a bruiser, her ideal playstyle will be throwing herself at the enemies and trying to just muscle through their damage until she kills them. She doesn't have much that encourages a different playstyle unless there is some risk to her not using a shield or a mobility skill properly.

Designing her to stay squishy and assassin-like is highly preferable. I say that from the perspective of an ADC and support main. I'd much rather have her squishy and reliant on a short-duration shield than have her be a brute who can infinitely throw herself at me if she's ahead. If I have a little help, I can outplay a squishy assassin who screws up a defensive ability. I can't do that to a meat wall with huge movement skills.

Can't get in as fast? The only champion I feel is more inescapable

Yeah, she does take time to get in. Her dashes take more time to get in than the longer range and quicker dashes that other assassins have. She will get in on someone if she isn't stopped, but she does give you and your team time to respond.

You know what it is now? A dash-shield that's not just boring, but extremely effective.

No, it's not boring right now. You don't like it, but it is interesting for players to use. Having a shield that you have to rely on for defenses can be very interesting. It opens up a lot of potential if the skill is used well and threatens punishment if it used poorly (it may be tuned too heavily towards the reward side right now, but we can address that). Making the shield non-scaling screws that. If you really hate the shield that much, it's rework, or nothing.

Alright: Zed can't hard CC anyone and is given brief untargetability, and he has energy.......

The point of all this is that you can have a champion who is escapable and can also avoid large amounts of damage. It can work for Riven, and finding a way to make it work should be the goal. You talk about things like her hard CC making her too strong for this shield? Well, if something had to go, that should go long before the shield scaling does. Or some of her damage. Or her base stats. Or the shield duration. Or her cooldowns. Or the entire E. There are just so many better options.

Like I said, I'm all for a reworked E, but I'm just trying to make what's already here work

Why go for such a lazy solution that will leave her in desperate need of a rework once it is done? I don't think you are trying to make it work for the Riven player. You're trying to make her weaker, but you aren't taking what is interesting to play with into consideration. There are so, so many ways to nerf or change her without compromising her design. There are changes that aren't so boring.

This is not the only way to balance her quickly and cheaply. There are other ways, and they do the job better and cleaner.

RobertsmashMay 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Her %AD multiplier on her ultimate. That doesn't have much value unless you have AD. Generally high AD ratios and low-duration CC don't help either. You're not going to make a bruiser Riven work as effectively as a heavy AD riven. It's not a good option. She can't work as effectively with a bruiser build as with a high AD build, and she won't even if the shield gets nerfed

Even if she could pull it off, it's a much less interesting paradigm. Having her be passively defensive and not need to use the shield to strategically mitigate damage or her mobility to avoid damage. If Riven becomes a bruiser, her ideal playstyle will be throwing herself at the enemies and trying to just muscle through their damage until she kills them. She doesn't have much that encourages a different playstyle unless there is some risk to her not using a shield or a mobility skill properly.

Designing her to stay squishy and assassin-like is highly preferable. I say that from the perspective of an ADC and support main. I'd much rather have her squishy and reliant on a short-duration shield than have her be a brute who can infinitely throw herself at me if she's ahead. If I have a little help, I can outplay a squishy assassin who screws up a defensive ability. I can't do that to a meat wall with huge movement skills.

Yeah, she does take time to get in. Her dashes take more time to get in than the longer range and quicker dashes that other assassins have. She will get in on someone if she isn't stopped, but she does give you and your team time to respond.

No, it's not boring right now. You don't like it, but it is interesting for players to use. Having a shield that you have to rely on for defenses can be very interesting. It opens up a lot of potential if the skill is used well and threatens punishment if it used poorly (it may be tuned too heavily towards the reward side right now, but we can address that). Making the shield non-scaling screws that. If you really hate the shield that much, it's rework, or nothing.

The point of all this is that you can have a champion who is escapable and can also avoid large amounts of damage. It can work for Riven, and finding a way to make it work should be the goal. You talk about things like her hard CC making her too strong for this shield? Well, if something had to go, that should go long before the shield scaling does. Or some of her damage. Or her base stats. Or the shield duration. Or her cooldowns. Or the entire E. There are just so many better options.

Why go for such a lazy solution that will leave her in desperate need of a rework once it is done? I don't think you are trying to make it work for the Riven player. You're trying to make her weaker, but you aren't taking what is interesting to play with into consideration. There are so, so many ways to nerf or change her without compromising her design. There are changes that aren't so boring.

This is not the only way to balance her quickly and cheaply. There are other ways, and they do the job better and cleaner.

I guess the main question I have is why do you think an assassin with 4 dashes, a knockup, and an AOE stun that builds massive lifesteal should have a massive shield? You argue for durability, but claim she should be/remain assassin like. Let's take Talon at the assassin end- goes in, has a slow, nukes one person, dies or gets out- no defence. Leblanc is the same- no defence. Now take Jax- he actually gains armor and MR based on his AD and AP- and he doesn't BUILD that much of either (compared to a carry's stats), it's on an ult cooldown, and he is still an effective duelist. Why doesn't he build flat AD and AP and only fight in his ult? Because he'd be a glass cannon for 80% of the time. Why does Riven get VERY low cooldown durability that scales off damage? It makes no gameplay sense.

You'd rather get rid of everything in the kit except the shield's amount; you feel like a huge shield is a core part of Riven's identity, and that'd be fine. If you remove some CC or change her W (which is ACTUALLY a boring ability), then the shield would be cool. If she were a bruiser, everything would work out- meaningful shield, moderate damage, and an ultimate that gave a fair amount of AD and still had an execute better than Garen's. And how do you poorly execute a shield that comes back in 6 seconds (less with CDR)? It's an ability that's made to cover up mistakes, including in its own usage. If you accidentally E into the enemy team with no backup, you just need to improve. If you randomly blow it somewhere, you just wait 5 seconds and go again.

This isn't an issue of making her weaker, it's just gives the enemy more options. You can duel a tanky Riven with less damage, you can't duel a shield-tanky Riven with Master Yi damage.

Sightless66May 7, 20151 votes

I guess the main question I have is why do you think an assassin with 4 dashes, a knockup, and an AOE stun that builds massive lifesteal should have a massive shield

That's a good question. My answer would be that while she does have a lot of dashes, her instant mobility is actually pretty low, particularly since her ultimate is the only way she has to project power at range. She isn't as able as other assassins to stay at the far edge of fights and capitalize highly on opportunistic plays, so she needs some ability to survive damage while still staying in the shorter range she needs to be in to fight opportunities to go in. A short-duration shield that can prevent enemies from bursting her is a great way to implement this. It allows her to seek opportunistic engagements, while also allowing enemies to put severe damage on her if they can CC her during the short duration and also allows them to put threatening harassment on her as she is getting in or right after she gets in.

Now, the numbers may be too high on it or on her general kit right now, but the design is absolutely sound. I think it's really a very strong concept, and it does play out very well in a lot of games. I don't play Riven (or top lane at all really if I'm honest), but I do end up playing against her a lot as an ADC, and I do feel like I have opportunities to respond to her if I play around the shield. She's sometimes strong enough to power through that, but that's a numbers problem, not a design problem.

I think enhancing her reliance the shield mechanic would be a great way to nerf her if we needed to nerf her. One option would be lowering her scaling health and resistances, to make her less able to just facetank damage. Another would be lowering her burst but putting more into her dps (there are a few ways I can think of to do this) so she takes more time to kill someone and they have more time to hit her while the shield is down (this would also encourage defensive itemization). If these were severe enough nerfs, you could actually buff the shield to really make it clear what she needs to be relying on.

Regarding two of your comparisons.... Talon: He's maybe the worst assassin design out there. I really hate his design, and I'd love to see him reworked from the ground up. He's entirely based around sitting around, jumping in, and praying he did enough damage that the enemy died before he did. There is some strategy in when he goes in, but he's mechanically braindead and he ends up with a very binary performance more often than other champions (he stomps like a god or he's completely worthless). Having no defensive mechanism or way to avoid damage outside of the easily mitigated stealth is a drawback to his design, not a positive. I would not like to see any champion go in his direction.

Le'blanc has a defense in her range and mobility. She can jump in, burst quickly from range, and be out again before anyone knows what happen. It's a heavily mobility-based defense, but it is still a strong safety mechanism. If Riven could use mobility for in-fight safety in the same way Le'blanc can, then the shield would be completely unnecessary.

Let me ask a few questions. What is the value of having a shield that doesn't scale on a champion who has poor options for enhancing it? Why put power into a mechanic that a player isn't going to be able to play around? Wouldn't the champion's power budget be better spent in mechanics that a player will make choices around?

You'd rather get rid of everything in the kit except the shield's amount;

Three objections to that characterization. First, I'd get rid of anything, not everything. Second, I wouldn't actually get rid of just anything. There are things I would keep in a choice between them and the shield (although I'd take a full rework before losing any of those things). And third (and most importantly), it's not the shield's amount I'm objecting to changing. It's completely removing the scaling that I object to. Riven should have an AD scaling shield. The AD scaling may need to be lowered, the base value may need to go down, the cooldown may need to go up, and the duration may need to go down but she should have the AD scaling. I think the AD scaling is very good design. It allows for her to be squishy but still have some opportunity to defend herself. The numbers may need changing, but the concept absolutely works.

And how do you poorly execute a shield that comes back in 6 seconds (less with CDR)?

You can die in less than 6 seconds. But, if that's too low of a cooldown, then the numbers need changing. That's fine. In fact, that's my point. Numbers nerfs are a much better option than redesigning the shield.

If she were a bruiser, everything would work out

If she were a bruiser with her current level of power, she'd be even more obnoxious. I at least have some chance of bursting down a Riven with no defenses if I avoid her shield. I have no freaking chance against a Riven who can be passively tanky as well. If you give me a squishy, shield-reliant Riven or a bruiser Riven of the same power (and I understand that means less damage), I would always rather play against the shield-reliant Riven. She CAN be outdueled and outteamfought in her current state.

This isn't an issue of making her weaker, it's just gives the enemy more options.

That's a fine goal, but this is not a good way to accomplish it. I am completely convinced that making her more reliant on the shield will open up many more options for the enemy than removing its scaling will.

RobertsmashMay 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's a good question. My answer would be that while she does have a lot of dashes, her instant mobility is actually pretty low, particularly since her ultimate is the only way she has to project power at range. She isn't as able as other assassins to stay at the far edge of fights and capitalize highly on opportunistic plays, so she needs some ability to survive damage while still staying in the shorter range she needs to be in to fight opportunities to go in. A short-duration shield that can prevent enemies from bursting her is a great way to implement this. It allows her to seek opportunistic engagements, while also allowing enemies to put severe damage on her if they can CC her during the short duration and also allows them to put threatening harassment on her as she is getting in or right after she gets in.

Why should Riven get to project power at range? She has ways of getting in and sticking to a target. How is it fair that if I actually manage to escape her, she can just toss out an impossible to miss skillshot execute? She survives fights with her item-given sustain and the shield that will still exist.

Now, the numbers may be too high on it or on her general kit right now, but the design is absolutely sound. I think it's really a very strong concept, and it does play out very well in a lot of games. I don't play Riven (or top lane at all really if I'm honest), but I do end up playing against her a lot as an ADC, and I do feel like I have opportunities to respond to her if I play around the shield. She's sometimes strong enough to power through that, but that's a numbers problem, not a design problem.

Unless I am vastly more skilled than the enemy, I (usually correctly) assume I will die if I see a Riven on my screen without 4 people in between me and her. Or, I could use my mobility move to get over one wall and then flash to get over another and then zigzag back to safety while knowing she's probably still chasing. Because even if she falls behind, she can just keep amplifying her defence by buying damage.

I think enhancing her reliance the shield mechanic would be a great way to nerf her if we needed to nerf her. One option would be lowering her scaling health and resistances, to make her less able to just facetank damage. Another would be lowering her burst but putting more into her dps (there are a few ways I can think of to do this) so she takes more time to kill someone and they have more time to hit her while the shield is down (this would also encourage defensive itemization). If these were severe enough nerfs, you could actually buff the shield to really make it clear what she needs to be relying on.

Riven already has the lowest effective health regen in the game, how much more should we beat her health bar to compensate for an overpowered shield?

Regarding two of your comparisons.... Talon: He's maybe the worst assassin design out there. I really hate his design, and I'd love to see him reworked from the ground up. He's entirely based around sitting around, jumping in, and praying he did enough damage that the enemy died before he did. There is some strategy in when he goes in, but he's mechanically braindead and he ends up with a very binary performance more often than other champions (he stomps like a god or he's completely worthless). Having no defensive mechanism or way to avoid damage outside of the easily mitigated stealth is a drawback to his design, not a positive. I would not like to see any champion go in his direction.

I've heard the opinion that Talon is one of the best designed assassins in the game. He has to make a choice: risk EVERYTHING to kill his target, and then probably die behind enemy lines, or go in without ulting and use it to get out. I read in a Tryndamere thread once that champions with seemingly binary kits actually have the most depth because players must choose how to use it, rather than kits with moves that fit any situation.

Le'blanc has a defense in her range and mobility. She can jump in, burst quickly from range, and be out again before anyone knows what happen. It's a heavily mobility-based defense, but it is still a strong safety mechanism. If Riven could use mobility for in-fight safety in the same way Le'blanc can, then the shield would be completely unnecessary.

Good point.

Let me ask a few questions. What is the value of having a shield that doesn't scale on a champion who has poor options for enhancing it? Why put power into a mechanic that a player isn't going to be able to play around? Wouldn't the champion's power budget be better spent in mechanics that a player will make choices around?

I'd call it planned power budgeting. Sion's E has an AP scaling, a stat Sion now rarely builds. So does his shield, incidentally. If a champion's kit has a certain budget, then I believe that wherever Riot doesn't want excessive power to reside, they can put in an unfavorable scaling. I believe they said they put scaling at all so that things like Baron buff still help a bit. Tristana's ultimate. Jinx's chompers. Jarvan's lance. Caitlyn's net. On AD champions, there are a variety of abilities that deliberately have this kind of scaling so that the champion is not overwhelming. Riven is the only champion with only AD scaling and a shield, and one of three assassins (the poorly designed Talon, and Zed, who's active shadow has no scaling). Talon and Zed have no durability.

Three objections to that characterization. First, I'd get rid of anything, not everything. Second, I wouldn't actually get rid of just anything. There are things I would keep in a choice between them and the shield (although I'd take a full rework before losing any of those things). And third (and most importantly), it's not the shield's amount I'm objecting to changing. It's completely removing the scaling that I object to. Riven should have an AD scaling shield. The AD scaling may need to be lowered, the base value may need to go down, the cooldown may need to go up, and the duration may need to go down but she should have the AD scaling. I think the AD scaling is very good design. It allows for her to be squishy but still have some opportunity to defend herself. The numbers may need changing, but the concept absolutely works.

Adjusting the AD scaling might work out, but I don't pretend to be a live balance expert. Squishy Rivens shouldn't have such ample opportunity at defending themselves so effectively. If the shield is so central to her kit, then other things should go. I won't start pretending to be a champion designer here, I just gave my idea of how to make current Riven less ridiculous.

If she were a bruiser with her current level of power, she'd be even more obnoxious. I at least have some chance of bursting down a Riven with no defenses if I avoid her shield. I have no freaking chance against a Riven who can be passively tanky as well. If you give me a squishy, shield-reliant Riven or a bruiser Riven of the same power (and I understand that means less damage), I would always rather play against the shield-reliant Riven. She CAN be outdueled and outteamfought in her current state.

I just disagree with you here; in general as a ranged carry I feel less "oh crap" when any bruiser comes at me than when assassin Riven does. You have more a chance of getting away or winning if you're alive, and you might survive the initial CC burst if she's a bruiser. And why do shields mean nothing to a bruiser? Vi's scales on max health, that's an option?

That's a fine goal, but this is not a good way to accomplish it. I am completely convinced that making her more reliant on the shield will open up many more options for the enemy than removing its scaling will.

Riven can rely on other things. She can dodge skillshots more easily than most and (I hate sounding like a broken record) she has hard CC. Don't you think players should display true mechanical skill when going in by dodging and timing while still having a moderate shield, instead of pressing E to facetank while mindlessly beelining for the target? There aren't many champions that I believe are truly unhealthy (beyond a numbers standpoint), but Riven is one of them. For almost all champions, when I get outplayed or when I die I usually see things I could have done differently, from mechanical things to map awareness. The question I always find myself asking during Riven matches is "How can she be allowed to do that? What could I have possibly done to avoid that happening without knowing the future?" I know I'm not high elo, but I don't feed and I'm not the kind of person to rage or blame anybody when I get 100-0'd from fog of war by Leblanc. Riven is not fair. If you think a numbers thing can fix that, then that's your idea, and you're not wrong; a low enough AD scaling will make it negligible.

Sightless66May 7, 20151 votes

Why should Riven get to project power at range?

I'm wasn't intending to say she should be able to. I was trying to say that she can't project power at range (unless she is ulting after already going in to do damage to someone), and she can't instantly get in. Assassins need to stay on the outside of fights until they can find an opportunity to get in, and Riven does fit that pattern. Having the shield gives her the mechanism for staying in the shorter range she needs to stay in until she can find an opportunity.

she can just toss out an impossible to miss skillshot execute?

This is why I actually like Riot's direction of lowering the projectile speed on her ultimate.

Riven already has the lowest effective health regen in the game, how much more should we beat her health bar to compensate for an overpowered shield?

What do you mean "how much more should we beat her health bar"? Aside from the regen, which stops mattering past a certain point in the game, her health is perfectly normal. She's in the 66th percentile for health per level and the 53rd percentile for base health. She's not out on any health in the mid or late game. There is a lot of room here.

Better to have it in the shield than in the base stats. Force active use, not passive defense.

I've heard the opinion that Talon is one of the best designed assassins in the game.

I've heard it too, and I disagree. I played him a lot back in season 3, and I quit because of how little choice I felt his kit gave me. He's probably the most basic assassin in the game, but that doesn't make him a well-designed one. There are so few options available to both him and his opponents. He stays at range until he sees an opening, dives in, bursts everything, and wins if he had enough damage to kill them. If he didn't, he loses and has almost no value. The vast majority of the skill on him is knowing when to pick your engagements and knowing exactly how much you'll be able to burn before you walk away. Because he has almost no opportunities to avoid damage, no skillshots to miss (the W is a 100% hit after you jump in). no need to engage slowly, no delay on his damage application, no utility, there are barely any openings to be exploited against him. It all just turns into a numbers game with him.

You can have a basic kit with a lot of opportunities for very complex gameplay and decisions. Talon doesn't though. I think he among the worst designed champions in this game. I think he's a very unhealthy champion, although he at least isn't strong enough for it to matter often.

Sion's E has an AP scaling, a stat Sion now rarely builds. So does his shield, incidentally.

Champions have skills which do damage early on but serve vital purposes later. When this is done, the skills need to have a strong function independent of the numbers of the skill. Jarvan needs the lance for his pull, Sion's E has armor shred, Jinx's chomphers have strong CC, etc. These work in power budgeting because they have strong purposes that make the skills satisfying independent of damage numbers. Riven's E without a good shield does not meet this criteria. The dash is not a unique mechanic on her kit. It's just one short-range dash, when her Q has multiple similar ones. It's not a strong enough mechanic to be numerically independent, so throwing power into weak numbers attached to it is a bad design decision. It would need a rework.

in general as a ranged carry I feel less "oh crap" when any bruiser comes at me than when assassin Riven does.

Can't agree with you. Riven doesn't give me any worries beyond that of any other assassin, and I don't really consider her any kind of unique threat in a teamfight situation. There are bruisers who are scarier than her and bruisers who worry me less. She's nothing special to me. She can avoid damage with her shield, but other assassins can avoid it by either having more freedom of when to engage, by straight up avoiding damage, or by staying out of range of my allies while attacking me. I really don't have any problems with her shield.

The question I always find myself asking during Riven matches is "How can she be allowed to do that? What could I have possibly done to avoid that happening without knowing the future?"

Fair enough. I can't claim to have those thoughts, and I don't really understand it, but I know plenty of other people who claim the same thing (at all skill ranks too). There's nothing wrong with that opinion.

I don't think there is much more to say here. I don't think Riven has an unhealthy design, and I can't see any value to modifying the shield even if she was unhealthy. I think other solutions to the problem are just better. I think that pretty much sums everything up? Well, have a good day then. Thanks for being polite with everything.

kcStrangerMay 7, 20151 votes

How does a movement speed nerf not hit her mobility?

I agree she's probably going to get a rework of some sort...eventually. This is a stopgap measure so she isn't so dominant at high elo in the meanwhile.

r11naMay 6, 20153 votes

NonMeta champ?

Lol.

http://champion.gg/champion/riven

At plat and above:

Win Rate compared to other top lane champions: #2 (54.38% win rate) just behind Heimerdinger who really doesn't even count as he almost never picked so in a way she has the #1 win rate in the top lane.

Play rate compared to other top lane champions: #1 (14.68%)

Ban rate compared to other top lane champions: #4 (9.8%)

Yup. Totally NonMeta. Riven mains are a JOKE. She has the highest win rate of the current meta champs in the top lane, the highest play rate and the 4th highest ban rate but she isn't meta somehow. IF that isn't a champ that is part of the meta then IDK what more it would take to be a part of the meta.

Sorry your 'high skill' freelo champ is finally getting the nerfs she deserves. Oh wait no i'm not sorry. Jinx

Scrambled AniviaMay 6, 20152 votes

ah i remember that time. people actually got banned for playing eve. lolol so, so, so many reports

stuartk11May 6, 20151 votes

Riot have nerfed many champions that weren't in the meta. Meta isn't everything. It's not your new religion, so don't treat it as such.

blueberrypancakeMay 6, 20151 votes

Nerfing is done so to prevent a meta from being stale (I mean Rito could have just never balance the game, people would initially play the game but they'd lose a massive following over time because the game would get so stale)

Right now Riven doesn't have a spot in the game competitively

I like to play non-meta champs

I said earlier that I am a Support Nunu main who also likes to do dorky stuff like Jungle Galio and Taric Top etc.

But when you nerf something unnecessarily (It doesn't help the game in its freshness, its player base, or competitive scene)

Void BeingMay 6, 20151 votes

You think that's bad? They nerfed Nunu, dude, Nunu! (just 2 patches ago), a not so used champ and many would say he sucks (not me I love him, I think he's one of the best junglers). But yeah, even if champ is rarely used and no one likes to play they still manage to somehow nerf the champ lol

blueberrypancakeMay 6, 20151 votes

This is different

They nerfed Nunu his health at level at 18 by 102

I'm a Nunu support main and it doesn't really bother me

Edit: I still agree with you tho

CorruptShadowsxxMay 6, 20151 votes

Ummm... i dont know but i found this post yesterday.... http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jUvEVfIR-riven-and-kalista-nerfs

blueberrypancakeMay 6, 20151 votes

I don't know why I'm getting downvoted so hard

I get people hate Riven

It must be that I did all caps and spelled are wrong

Man I love this Community item 3070

Dies to WolvesMay 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't know why I'm getting downvoted so hard

I get people hate Riven

It must be that I did all caps and spelled are wrong

Man I love this Community

probably because the way you worded your post made you sound like one of those bronze riven mains that keep picking her and spamming "outplayed" in all chat and feeding and stuff like that

anyways, her pick rate is high, her win rate is high, and her ban rate is high (not as ridiculously high as the fotm permabans, but still quite higher than your average champion), so really this nerf isn't something to be shocked about

not to mention it's a pretty small-ish nerf. 5 less base movespeed to a champion that moves around combat mainly through her spammable resourceless dashes (above average mobility through spells, she shouldn't also boast a high base movespeed all things considered), and less projectile speed on her ult's execute, to give her enemies a bit more of a chance to react. It'll still be strong and kill people, but now it's less of a garanteed hit

Blue Collar BearMay 6, 20151 votes

Riven. Non meta? I don't believe it!

KalajMay 6, 20151 votes

They need to nerf faker's riven for MSI that's why dude... CMON THINK ABOUT IT! Riven

HailFire DragonMay 7, 20151 votes

why are you being salty about it tho. its only like 5 mvm speed and a slower wind slash. your acting like they nerfed her damage or her shield and dashes or something