Winrates DO mean something.

Lil Soybean··6 votes·1,132 views

But they are NOT a straight indicator of whether a champion is broken or not.

They do, however, carry valuable information.

Winrate and Pickrate - Inverse Relationship

To be brief: Take Heimerdinger, who seems to always be well above 50% winrate. Why is this? Does it mean he's broken? But so few people play him! That's the point. So few play him that the few who do are generally very experienced heimerdinger mains.

This is actually an observable trend. Regardless of a champion's balance state, watch their popularity; Usually, as a champion becomes more popular, their winrate drops. And the contrary is also true; usually, a very under-played champion has an above average winrate due simply to being played only by people who know the champion very well. (Mains.)

There are exceptions. When a champion is so bad and so underplayed that even their mains can't bring their winrate much higher (think something like Urgot, maybe.) Or when a champion is so blatantly broken that it's easy to stomp with him/her, even as a player who's just picked them up. (Think Ahri after her recent changes that shot her to 56-58% winrate, before the subsequent nerfs.)

That's all. Winrates can give us valuable information, so we don't need to discard them as useless.
But saying a broken champion is balanced because their winrate is poor (while they're also incredibly popular) is an invalid argument. A champion can be overwhelmingly broken, but still suffer a low winrate - because so many people pick that champion without knowing how to play them, simply because they've heard they're OP.

Thanks.

Counterpicking Influence

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TYnpEVZd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-11T12:14:45.876+0000)

One key thing you did not mention about Win rates. They are also based on how well the champions are doing against the top meta picks. For example, annie's win rate is so high because she counters a ton of the current meta picks. However, if the meta were to shift more around champs like galio for example her win rate would drop.

^ Great point.

Implications of winrate & pickrate on champion skillfloors & skillcaps

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TYnpEVZd,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-11T12:05:13.694+0000)

Surprised no one corrected you. I will then. Statistics from op.gg.

All Leagues, Last Month:

Jinx: 33% pick rate; 53% win rate. Graves: 30% pick rate; 51% win rate. Thresh: 30% pick rate; 47% win rate. Leona : 26% pick rate; 52% win rate. Morgana : 24% pick rate; 50% win rate LeeSin 23% pick rate; 46% win rate Annie : 21.5% pick rate; 52% win rate Vi: 20% pick rate; 53% win rate Riven: 18% pick rate; 50% win rate

As you can see, only Thresh and Lee Sin have sub 50% win rates. That could be because poor players are picking them, or it could just be the nature of their kits. Even in higher tiers, though, they maintain sub 50% win rates. In Platinum Lee Sin still has a 47% win rate and Thresh has a 48%. In Diamond, they both have 49% win rates.

I'm not seeing a high popularity-low winrate trend.

The end of the post addressed instances where champions are both high pickrate and high winrate (or maintain a clean 50% winrate despite being incredibly popular.) This is usually an indicator that the champion is actually overpowered. Not having a high winrate alone. But maintaining one while being a very popular pick.
The champions that are broken, then, become even likelier to be picked, and so their pick rate increases.

Basically what I'm saying is that, if you're going by the most popular recent champions, then you're liable to find candidates for somewhat overbearing champions. For example. I really like Jinx's kit, and her strength despite being immobile. But it's possible she's become slightly too good lately due to the continuous chain of nerfs to whatever other ADCs rose above her. Or, to be more accurate, she might have become slightly too reliable.

Other champions on that list kind of speak for themselves. Riven, for example. I feel that despite having an incredibly high skillcap, she's easy to play in a binary feast-or-famine matter. All-in, press every button every time they show up to lane; it's very likely that either you die and keep feeding, or you get the first kill and keep killing them repeatedly. Her skillful players (like BoxBox) can minimize the damage from all-ins that go wrong, or get kills where other Riven players wouldn't have been able to. But then there will also be Riven players who just consistently feed. Binary, feast or famine, low skill floor, yet high skill cap; balancing at 50% winrate.

Notice the implications on skillcap given by the annie vs lee statistics, by the way. One presses all of their buttons and hopes you die. The other, Lee, has a very high mechanical skillcap. Incidentally, I think Lee is a more overbearing, overloaded champion overall, but the point remains - they're both very strong, but the one with the high skillfloor (Lee) suffers in winrate when tons of people play him, where as the one who is relatively mechanically simple (Annie) maintains a high winrate despite her popularity, due to how easy she is to use. Although I do think she has a high skill cap as well. But incredibly low skillfloor.

Perhaps the simplest example is how close in popularity Thresh and Leona are, and yet his popularity is a bit higher, and his winrate is a bit lower. Why? Both bring lots of hard CC and tankiness to a team. Both have similar engages. Overall, Thresh seems to offer more utility, but have a higher skillcap. The one that is more mechanically difficult is, in my opinion Thresh; he therefore suffers a lower winrate by default due to the massive amount of people picking him and not playing him to his full potential. Whereas many of those players might have fared better with a more straightforward kit like Leona's.

14 Comments

Malix Farwin3 votes

One key thing you did not mention about Win rates. They are also based on how well the champions are doing against the top meta picks. For example, annie's win rate is so high because she counters a ton of the current meta picks. However, if the meta were to shift more around champs like galio for example her win rate would drop.

Lil Soybean1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TYnpEVZd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-11T12:14:45.876+0000)

One key thing you did not mention about Win rates. They are also based on how well the champions are doing against the top meta picks. For example, annie's win rate is so high because she counters a ton of the current meta picks. However, if the meta were to shift more around champs like galio for example her win rate would drop.

Great point. Maybe I should add more things to the original post. I'm going to quote you there. Do you mind?

Darkwind1 votes

Gj, you know how win rates work. Now, quick, delete the post before the rest of the forum crucifies you, cuz they all either think win rate are useless or that they're the ten commandments.

Raptamei6 votes

{quoted}

Gj, you know how win rates work. Now, quick, delete the post before the rest of the forum crucifies you, cuz they all either think win rate are useless or that they're the ten commandments.

If winrates don't support one's QQ thread they are useless. If they do, they are super important. Duh!

Fizz is not Fish1 votes

A champion can be overwhelmingly broken, but still suffer a low winrate - because so many people pick that champion without knowing how to play them, simply because they've heard they're OP.

what if they still have bad winrates in diamond tier who are the top 1% players? these champs such as zed, lee, leblanc are QQed about on boards everyday. but their winrates are all below 50% in diamond tier diamond players don't know how to play them ? then they are not broken --- so hard to learn even you are one of the top 1% players.

Lil Soybean3 votes

{quoted}

what if they still have bad winrates in diamond tier who are the top 1% players? these champs such as zed, lee, leblanc are QQed about on boards everyday. but their winrates are all below 50% in diamond tier diamond players don't know how to play them ? then they are not broken --- so hard to learn even you are one of the top 1% players.

If a diamond player is forced out of their role - which happens often, in all ELOs - who do you think they play?

If a diamond midlane main is forced to play jungle, tell me. Do you think they're more likely to lock in Lee Sin, or...Nocturne?

The one that is considered extremely good is picked by them, regardless of whether they know the champion at all, or even know the role at all. If Nocturne was super popular and considered amazing in the new jungle, the diamond player would be more inclined to try him, and if they failed miserably, Nocturne's winrate would drop. But instead it happens with champions like Lee when forced into the jungle, or Zed when forced into the midlane as someone who doesn't know the champion/doesn't know the role, etc. etc.

Ironically, the people at those higher ELOs might be even more likely to drop the winrates of those champions, because they're more knowledgeable/more "aware" of the metagame in general, and thus know which picks (I.E. Lee Sin, Zed) are supposed to be incredibly reliable and overbearing. As opposed to someone new who might just grab nocturne if forced into jungling, 'cause he's a jungler, why not?

disregardable1 votes

Surprised no one corrected you. I will then. Statistics from op.gg.

All Leagues, Last Month:

Jinx: 33% pick rate; 53% win rate. Graves: 30% pick rate; 51% win rate. Thresh: 30% pick rate; 47% win rate. Leona : 26% pick rate; 52% win rate. Morgana : 24% pick rate; 50% win rate LeeSin 23% pick rate; 46% win rate Annie : 21.5% pick rate; 52% win rate Vi: 20% pick rate; 53% win rate Riven: 18% pick rate; 50% win rate

As you can see, only Thresh and Lee Sin have sub 50% win rates. That could be because poor players are picking them, or it could just be the nature of their kits. Even in higher tiers, though, they maintain sub 50% win rates. In Platinum Lee Sin still has a 47% win rate and Thresh has a 48%. In Diamond, they both have 49% win rates.

I'm not seeing a high popularity-low winrate trend.

Ryan1233391 votes

But in high Elo, just means that the player has a good understanding on the game and ways to react to a certain situation and does not mean they have mastered that champion. High elo players will not of mastered all champions, therefore they may wish to use another champion to play. So they are trying to learn a new champion while competing with other diamond players.

Lil Soybean1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TYnpEVZd,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-11T12:05:13.694+0000)

Surprised no one corrected you. I will then. Statistics from op.gg.

All Leagues, Last Month:

Jinx: 33% pick rate; 53% win rate. Graves: 30% pick rate; 51% win rate. Thresh: 30% pick rate; 47% win rate. Leona : 26% pick rate; 52% win rate. Morgana : 24% pick rate; 50% win rate LeeSin 23% pick rate; 46% win rate Annie : 21.5% pick rate; 52% win rate Vi: 20% pick rate; 53% win rate Riven: 18% pick rate; 50% win rate

As you can see, only Thresh and Lee Sin have sub 50% win rates. That could be because poor players are picking them, or it could just be the nature of their kits. Even in higher tiers, though, they maintain sub 50% win rates. In Platinum Lee Sin still has a 47% win rate and Thresh has a 48%. In Diamond, they both have 49% win rates.

I'm not seeing a high popularity-low winrate trend.

The end of the post addressed instances where champions are both high pickrate and high winrate (or maintain a clean 50% winrate despite being incredibly popular.) This is usually an indicator that the champion is actually overpowered. Not having a high winrate alone. But maintaining one while being a very popular pick.
The champions that are broken, then, become even likelier to be picked, and so their pick rate increases.

Basically what I'm saying is that, if you're going by the most popular recent champions, then you're liable to find candidates for somewhat overbearing champions. For example. I really like Jinx's kit, and her strength despite being immobile. But it's possible she's become slightly too good lately due to the continuous chain of nerfs to whatever other ADCs rose above her. Or, to be more accurate, she might have become slightly too reliable.

Other champions on that list kind of speak for themselves. Riven, for example. I feel that despite having an incredibly high skillcap, she's easy to play in a binary feast-or-famine matter. All-in, press every button every time they show up to lane; it's very likely that either you die and keep feeding, or you get the first kill and keep killing them repeatedly. Her skillful players (like BoxBox) can minimize the damage from all-ins that go wrong, or get kills where other Riven players wouldn't have been able to. But then there will also be Riven players who just consistently feed. Binary, feast or famine, low skill floor, yet high skill cap; balancing at 50% winrate.

Notice the implications on skillcap given by the annie vs lee statistics, by the way. One presses all of their buttons and hopes you die. The other, Lee, has a very high mechanical skillcap. Incidentally, I think Lee is a more overbearing, overloaded champion overall, but the point remains - they're both very strong, but the one with the high skillfloor (Lee) suffers in winrate when tons of people play him, where as the one who is relatively mechanically simple (Annie) maintains a high winrate despite her popularity, due to how easy she is to use. Although I do think she has a high skill cap as well. But incredibly low skillfloor.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

One more thing to consider is ban rates. If a champion has a high ban rate then this can indicate an overloaded kit that is frustrating to play against. I usually like to look at pick, ban, and win rates when evaluating a champ.

Zed for instance has a high pick rate and ban rate with a low win rate. This tells us that his kit is overloaded and unfun to play against (hence the high ban rate) and he can take over games (hence the high pick rate, i mean who doesn't love to control the game). Despite this he is actually underpowered because even though he does so, he doesn't win games.

Lil Soybean1 votes

{quoted}

One more thing to consider is ban rates. If a champion has a high ban rate then this can indicate an overloaded kit that is frustrating to play against. I usually like to look at pick, ban, and win rates when evaluating a champ.

Zed for instance has a high pick rate and ban rate with a low win rate. This tells us that his kit is overloaded and unfun to play against (hence the high ban rate) and he can take over games (hence the high pick rate, i mean who doesn't love to control the game). Despite this he is actually underpowered because even though he does so, he doesn't win games.

It does suggest he's unfun/frustrating to play against, but the low winrate does not suggest he's underpowered, because - again - it's most likely an effect of his high pickrate. (He has a high skillcap, and he's massively popular, hence many people who can't play him well buy him and try to play him.) Isn't he somewhere around 13-2 in the LCS right now? I read that he was called the only safe first-pick for the midlane by pros as well, or something along those lines. The only redeeming factor is that many people at low ELO don't play him to his full, overpowered potential. (I'm only around SIlver right now, trying to climb back to Gold)

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

The high-pickrate argument can be a good one, but even soloq at plat+ he only has a 47-48% winrate, so while it does improve once you get away from low elo it is still a touch low. I am hesitant to use LCS statistics to determine power level because it is only ~100 games out of ~100,000,000 daily games. Either way i'd certainly believe his power level is over 9000 in the LCS because he fits well into the current meta and isn't countered by many things in the meta.

Lil Soybean1 votes

{quoted}

The high-pickrate argument can be a good one, but even soloq at plat+ he only has a 47-48% winrate, so while it does improve once you get away from low elo it is still a touch low. I am hesitant to use LCS statistics to determine power level because it is only ~100 games out of ~100,000,000 daily games. Either way i'd certainly believe his power level is over 9000 in the LCS because he fits well into the current meta and isn't countered by many things in the meta.

That's because he does almost everything and is incredibly safe. Consider the irony that counterpicking him generally means 'you're playing one of the few champions that can ult themselves to survive him' rather than meaning that he actually gets shut down. Even if he does, he still becomes a free-farming, split-pushing monster.

Anyway, I've already addressed the point about the winrate being below 50% even in higher ELOs. I'll re-quote it.

If a diamond player is forced out of their role - which happens often, in all ELOs - who do you think they play?

If a diamond midlane main is forced to play jungle, tell me. Do you think they're more likely to lock in Lee Sin, or...Nocturne?

The one that is considered extremely good is picked by them, regardless of whether they know the champion at all, or even know the role at all. If Nocturne was super popular and considered amazing in the new jungle, the diamond player would be more inclined to try him, and if they failed miserably, Nocturne's winrate would drop. But instead it happens with champions like Lee when forced into the jungle, or Zed when forced into the midlane as someone who doesn't know the champion/doesn't know the role, etc. etc.

Ironically, the people at those higher ELOs might be even more likely to drop the winrates of those champions, because they're more knowledgeable/more "aware" of the metagame in general, and thus know which picks (I.E. Lee Sin, Zed) are supposed to be incredibly reliable and overbearing. As opposed to someone new who might just grab nocturne if forced into jungling, 'cause he's a jungler, why not?

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

That's because he does almost everything and is incredibly safe. Consider the irony that counterpicking him generally means 'you're playing one of the few champions that can ult themselves to survive him' rather than meaning that he actually gets shut down. Even if he does, he still becomes a free-farming, split-pushing monster.

I absolutely, unequivocally, 100%, agree. Zed can shut you down but you can't shut down Zed.

Anyway, I've already addressed the point about the winrate being below 50% even in higher ELOs. I'll re-quote it.

That's an interesting point, but i would argue that at high levels they would be more aware of winrates and be more likely to pick based on that rather than flavor of the month, but maybe that depends on if you are in plat/diamond or master/challenger. But then again maybe I'm just wrong on that point.

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