Please, Riot, tell us what you're doing with Zilean

Lil Soybean·5/15/2015, 10:19:59 AM·123 votes·5,412 views

Please don't let this be another Rework that guts the champion and leaves them to die

Please don't make Zilean the next Olaf

So much of the rework sounded super flashy and awesome then turned out to be bullshit

Q -> less reliable, because it's a skillshot, but can have a powerful stun now

**The hidden cost: **Went from being the most reliable damage in the game to being one of the most impossible to land skillshots in the game (you don't actually land it, you just have to hope they fuck up and stand still/step towards it) Furthermore, you can't reliably have a teammate be a kamikaze bomber because you have to aim it even at your own allies now.

W -> No longer affects your ultimate

Compensation: Ultimate cooldown lowered...but it still doesn't get quite as low as it used to before (Overall, it was a nerf for no justifiable reason.)

E -> Speed/slow from 55% to 99% at max rank; duration down from 5.5s at max rank to 2.5s at all ranks RANGE REDUCED The hidden cost: You failed to mention how the diminishing returns calculation on movement speed means that 99% actually barely makes more of a difference than the 55% did before, because they both make you hit the speed cap.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, you took away his ability to stay perma-sped, which was the funnest part of his kit (at max rank in W and E, with 40% CDR, you used to be able to stay perma-sped...now you have to do it in staggered bursts of speed)

MOST IMPORTANTLY, YOU MADE THE E RANGE SO LOW THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN DOUBLE-E AN ALLY IF YOU SPEED THEM ONCE, BECAUSE THEY'LL BE TOO FAR FROM YOU. You said it was to prevent his Q from being too reliable. In reality, the effect was, "if you want to land your Q, you have to use your E; if you want to use your E, you now have to walk up into suicide range and stand still long enough to double-cast your new bomb skillshot."

And this is the part that really bothers me. The ability to stay permanently sped was so fun. It was so core to his playstyle. IT WAS HIS END-GAME FANTASY. After maxing out both E and W, and then building 40% CDR, you finally achieved it. And you removed that. Yes, it'd be a bit stronger with his new E speed. But not much, because - again - the movespeed cap makes that buff nearly negligible.

R -> Cooldown lowered, but actually ends up effectively longer than before (because W no longer effects it); duration reduced from 7s to 5s

Here's the most insulting thing about this, Riot. You know what the mark does now? It makes your ally stop running after about 2s, then say, "oh, shit, I have Zilean's ultimate...uh..." and then spend the next 3 seconds desperately trying to get close enough to the enemies to die. And they do. They get there just in time to be killed as his mark runs out, because you lowered the duration. YOU LITERALLY TOOK AN ABILITY THAT SERVES NO PURPOSE BUT TO SAVE YOUR OWN OR AN ALLIES LIFE, AND MADE IT SO IT OCCASIONALLY KILLS YOUR TEAMMATES.

His kit is so, so, so fun. You did a great job on that. But the numbers are shit. You gave him a stun and an increase on his E's effectiveness, but it turns out the E buff was incredibly insignificant because of the movement speed cap, and the range nerf nearly gutted the ability. The bomb was only strong because it was guaranteed damage, and you made it one of the most unreliable damage sources in the game. His ultimate was reliable because it saved allies, and so you had to make it less effective at that to - oh, and increase the cooldown by a bit just 'cause, why not?

Basically, you gave him two small buffs, and made him funner to play, and then gutted him.

My suggestions involve increasing the E range so it can ACTUALLY be used to land Q's reliably without going into instant-death range, but at the heavy mana cost of using E->Q->W->Q just to get your basic damage cycle off. Furthermore, it'd actually be able to reach allies you're trying desperately to reach again. You nerfed the range to prevent bombs from being too reliable to land, but you also made it harder to help your team.

And trust me, you could give Zilean a lot of help before people ever consider him a reliably strong pick like Blitzcrank or Morgana instead of just a trollpick.

It's really hard to justify picking Zilean when your entire botlane experience consists of, "Because I'm arbitrarily one of the squishiest champions in the game, if I ever get hit by a single CC skillshot, I die instantly, absolutely 100% guaranteed," with a little dash of, "I'm out of mana incredibly quickly if I try to contribute at all."

PLEASE DON'T LEAVE HIM LIKE THIS. Please just talk to us about what you're going to do and when. And please, please, please don't just give us the "he has hidden power" excuse and then leave him Tristana'd. Please. There are players who love to play this champion, but make their teams suffer because their chances of winning drop dramatically because they're not picking something you kept strong like Thresh.

77 Comments

Old Man Teeto5/15/2015, 11:28:20 AM35 votes

Riot saw Zilean in competitive play.

Destroyed it mercilessly.

I am zdark fist5/16/2015, 1:30:37 AM24 votes

His kit feels clunky as hell, it needs several improvements.

For example, make his Q lock in on allies like Bard.

Bard 's W can be placed or locked in on allies, it's already very difficult for allies to predict bomb explosion time when picking them off the ground. It's also hell for Zilean to drop a bomb on a sped up ally, let alone put the second one on the same target in a teamfight. Give it a "lock in" function on a target affected by E?

Or you know, you could give him a real passive. If the target takes 2 auto attacks from Zilean; he gets a debuff that allows you to lock Q on him, dealing bonus damage. Champions with low reliability usually have threatening auto attacks to force the target to react ( every ADC ever, TwistedFate Orianna LuluThresh Blitzcrank Bard Kennen Yasuo ); Zilean has no way of controlling a duel whatsoever.

Lovely Pants5/15/2015, 2:00:48 PM19 votes

I love the reworked Zilean kit, honestly, and there were a lot of people who did when it first came out, but I'm not playing him right now because it's just a little too frustrating to be useful in lane with him. I think the one thing that everyone who loved or hated the rework can agree on is that his Double bomb _feels _ super unreliable when used against anyone with a minimal sense of spatial awareness and we anted to see something done about that.

I would like to see them try just one change which I think would boost Zil's reliability and satisfaction to play without much detriment to the counterplay options which were the intention of the rework: Make it so the double bomb explosion quickening and stun works when placed on two directly adjacent units.

Even if the damage is kept within the radius of each bomb or it doesn't work if it just lands on the ground instead of sticking a unit, this would be a huge improvement to reliability, instead of feeling half the time like the game is cheating you out of rightfully earned time booms.

Svddenly5/15/2015, 10:40:12 AM14 votes

I just want my zoom zoom zil zil back.

item 3070 Zilean item 3070

Ghiefelstein5/15/2015, 12:00:27 PM11 votes

One of Zilean's problems is that other champions do his job, but better. He is only going to get picked if he is numerically stronger than them. For example, try replacing 'Zilean' with 'Lulu' in the description below:

Zilean is a champion that can be played as a solo laner or a support. In early laning he relies on his Q for poke damage. Q is a skillshot, but is significantly easier to land if you use E on the enemy first. His damage falls of later in the game, but this champion has plenty of utility to make up for it. The ult can save any any important ally and the combination of massive speed boosts and slows helps with kiting.

Zilean Lulu

Waawee5/15/2015, 3:00:44 PM7 votes

The most fun I had with old zilean, when I used to play him support, was the 40% cdr 5.5 second long speed buff with e. It was hilariously fun speeding up your allied udyr and watch him wreck the enemy team. Instead, we are left with this poor excuse for a speed buff. I hate it. As soon as I saw the nerf on the pbe, I knew I would no longer have fun with this champion. Give us back the old e.

Relevant video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNdvZjEer6g

Drukyul5/15/2015, 10:36:57 PM6 votes

I wonder how Zilean would be if they just made his mana costs so insignificant that he could spam away and make the reliability issues not matter so much. I don't think that's the best way to buff him, but it'd be better than nothing.

Nucleophilic atk5/16/2015, 3:20:22 AM5 votes

He could beat Zed. Should tell you what rito's plans for him were.

Mister Beane5/15/2015, 3:33:44 PM5 votes

Dear board and rioters,

When I first joined the league ( on my old account ) Zilean was my go-to support and is still the support I use most on this, my new account. In spite of having been "gutted" he still is although I admit I've read many good points thus far in both the initial post and the comments. With that said I'm not against the majority of the changes as I believe they separate the average Zilean player from those who actually are skilled with him. With that said, there are a few things I'd change and a few things I like which I'll be going over.

I'd start by giving Zilean increased auto attack range. Pre-rework it was 600 and was the only tool he could effectively use to harass without putting himself at risk/taking his partner's farm given the cost/power of his Time Bomb/Time Bomb Combo ( Q, W, Q ) which we'll now call T.B.C. Granting him this increased attack range would allow him to poke and harass from a safe distance while preserving mana which would bring his early game to par with other supports given many other supports have skill-shots, that we'll refer to as S.S., that have near equal or longer ranges than Zilean's T.B.C. which has 900 range w/o assistance. Examples of this include Nami whose S.S. are all over 725 range, Braum's Winter Bite/Glacial Fissure have 1000/1250 range, all of Lux's are over 1000 range, Lulu's Glitterlance/Wild Growth have 925/900 range, Janna's Howling Gale/Eye of the storm/Monsoon have 1700/800/725 range and Karma's Inner Flame/Focused Resolve/Inspire have 950/675/800 range.

Zilean's reworked Time Bomb ( Q ) is actually something I really like. While the early-game mana cost of his T.B.C. may be a hassle it is more than fair given how versatile it has become. The big thing I noticed about Zilean pre-rework is that people wouldn't come near you unless they felt they could kill you which allowed you to zone for your lane partner. His reworked Time Bomb now allows you to toss a bomb out behind caster minions, zoning your lane foes unless they feel like risking a stun to get farm. If they attempt to go around your first bomb you always have the option of tossing a second next to it and enchanting your minions or jungler with a bomb is now a great way to zone them from under tower. A lot of risks in Zilean's zoning game are gone even if harassing with him has become brutal due to his lowered attack range.

Zilean's reworked Time Warp ( E ) is still surprisingly effective even with the shortened duration. While "Zoom Zoom Zilean" was always fun being able to stay in that state permanently was a bit over-the-top and I think removing that was good for balance. With that said I now feel this skill is a bit underwhelming and would benefit from getting a cast-range increase to 900 from the current range of 700. I feel increasing the range would help Zilean to slow a foe which is something he currently struggles to do in the lane-phase without a foe being under some form of C.C. He currently takes a lot of damage when he goes in to auto-attack or slow a foe and this change would reduce that damage while bringing him up to par with other supports who, again, have longer S.S. ranges. The fact it would uniform his abilities ( all his skills would have 900 range ) would also be nice in regards to not having to memorize a third cast range for Zilean who currently needs to keep his auto attack ranges and Time Bomb/Ult ranges in mind whenever he plans an action.

TL;DR: I'd only make two changes to ZIlean, both on the P.B.E. I'd first bring his auto-attack range back to 600 to allow him to harass on par with other supports given other supports are able to do this easier due to having more effective abilities. My second action would be to increase his Time Warp cast range to 900 which would allow him to land his slows easier which is something he currently struggles to do in the laning phase. I feel enabling these two actions on the P.B.E. would allow people to test a more balanced Zilean that could be brought to the live game client.

Thanks for reading/please share feedback, Mr. Beane.

frostywontons5/15/2015, 7:01:56 PM5 votes

Zilean's new kil is fine BUT the Q attach radius is laughably minuscule. Anyone with a brain can avoid a bomb, period. There is no mastering of the skill or of Zilean, there is only your opponent being stupid and foolish. Now, you might say that perhaps the "high skillcap" is necessitated by a "high reward" but I hardly ever feel accomplished for landing a stun. Really, all that Zilean needs is a marginal increase to the Q attach radius and he'll be in okay territory.

insaiyanbacca5/15/2015, 7:14:52 PM5 votes

honestly riot needs to stop trying to put him in support and work on making him a utility based mid laner imo he seems outclassed by other supports but when i play him mid he seems to compete on the same level, as for his bombs you just have to predict where your opponent is going to be just like every other skillshot, and the reason for the kinda sorta ult nerf through w was because its basically the revive summoner spell and im pretty sure at lvl 3 ult plus 40% cdr it gets to like 30-40 sec cd. basically i think he needs to be tweaked into mid and out of support but this is just my opinion

thePandev5/15/2015, 7:52:57 PM5 votes

Zilean can point and click Q to enemies or allies affected by his E. Stun is half duration by enemies hit by the point and click double Q's.

Would this be a good change?

The Ellimiist5/15/2015, 7:58:59 PM4 votes

lol I like riots method of small balance changes for the most part, but when they do these major reworks that they claim are "buffs" they always seem like huge nerfs to already weak champs

FooDang5/15/2015, 2:20:47 PM4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lil Soybean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PrrknuQp,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-15T10:19:59.789+0000)

Please don't make Zilean the next Olaf

Olaf "Hey dude, I'm kind of a big deal"

Supp Hero5/15/2015, 9:58:59 PM3 votes

I used to support Zilean occasionally, but screw trying to play him in a real game after the rework. He was already weak enough.

Gati5/15/2015, 9:48:25 PM2 votes

Rito destroyed the race car Zilian meta, 40% CDR+item 3270

GOTTA GO FAST

ElJanitorFrank5/15/2015, 9:21:14 PM2 votes

I might disagree with the W - R interaction, though. If I remember correctly, it only would have been about a 6-8 second longer cooldown, but that is ONLY if you are spamming W every single time it's up instantly. And I didn't play Zilean hardly at all before the re work, but shouldn't you save your W if you're close to a fight in order to double bomb something or speed up a few people? If, at any point, you hold your W for a combined duration of 6/8 seconds (don't remember which one) his ultimate cooldown actually got buffed.

This is assuming you have 40% cdr.

Rinky Dinky5/15/2015, 9:56:12 PM2 votes

His problem is that he is a support who has non existent poke, no sustain, and non existent hard engage.

Sohleks5/16/2015, 5:07:06 PM2 votes

Beautiful post...

5512025/15/2015, 10:49:38 PM1 votes

His kit is fine imo, what riot did was just a balance change, all is fine. BUT why no1 play him??? Its because he needed a** Visual upgrade** with his kit change to be classed as "UP TO DATE" (like Twitch Sion MasterYi etc) Those up to date champ worth skins.

He kept his old 2009 model and his 9 line quotes, and i know why, i think Riot just stopped upgrading old 2009 champ model because of their price IP/RP (too low). I find that disgusting that a part of the 1st 40 didnt get a visual upgrade because of their price... And like his model was that good, he get a new skin, with his old outdated model and 9 lines quotes...

TL;DR: Give Zilean a visual upgrade

Spacesuit Spiff5/15/2015, 6:28:32 PM1 votes

I'll hand it to rito, landing those bombs feels like an accomplishment (you can get the enemy adc when they stop moving to cs if you're keeping an eye on the wave)... until you realize they do almost nothing, and if you get any sort of retaliation in the process that's half your life gone.

Also, bomb prioritization pls.

Tryhard Mittens5/15/2015, 5:35:15 PM1 votes

The skill shot doesn't seem so terrible when you take into account that you can throw it on a minion twice for the aoe stun. You don't necessarily have to hit the champ to set up a gank or initiation. Could work for a level 2 support all in, but I haven't really tried playing him for some of the reasons mentioned above (troll pick, mana, etc).

Lil Soybean5/23/2015, 10:49:29 PM1 votes

Rito pls

gafratt5/16/2015, 9:51:02 PM1 votes

Zilean "I must go back to stop the rework!"

Bârd5/17/2015, 12:06:48 AM1 votes

Zilean Can still work, kind of. Where before you played him as a high poke AP champion, now you play him as a full utility peel champion. The Slow is pretty damn annoying to tryndameres and the like, and the stun can be landed if you slow them first.

But overall, I agree. He needs to be reverted or buffed or something. Zilean, at this point, is a shitty Janna.

Lil Soybean5/17/2015, 10:50:30 AM1 votes

b

Karcist5/17/2015, 8:01:54 PM1 votes

If nothing else, I just desperately want Zilean's old E back. Even more desperately though, I would like to hear what the current plans for Zilean are from a red.

Lil Soybean5/19/2015, 11:59:36 PM1 votes

Bump in hopes of a Red noticing this thread... :/

qetzel5/15/2015, 9:56:00 PM1 votes

I quite like your analysis. It was an interesting read. The feel of a champion is important.

From seeing other Zileans (I don't play him) what he needs is slightly more reliability on his Q. Not much, but a little more. Perhaps make the second one travel (slightly) faster or something like that?

One question... Could Zilean's... two questions...

Could Zilean's E affect his allies twice before anyway? Is the ultimate cooldown change actually a nerf? I mean, it is a six second cooldown change at max rank, yes, but with the added bonus of not having to constantly spam your W. You can save it for the perfect double bomb opportunity now, can't you? As I don't play Zilean, I am not sure how this change makes him feel, but perhaps you could shed some light?

Also, his passive is shit.