The problem with Enchanters

chipndip1··10 votes·2,534 views

As we all know, support as a role is...lacking. A lot. Honestly, I blame the enchanter class for it.

Short version:

Enchanters don't have interactive game play, and support itemization encourages even less interaction between players and opponents. This is boring to most video game players, let alone LoL players. Given that most supports are enchanters, and problems this class has effects the role as a whole more, that's a major why support is unpopular.

Long version:

Now, in the support role, we have more enchanters than we do anything else. That means that if there's something that doesn't feel too compelling about enchanter gameplay in general, then the majority of champs in the role aren't compelling as a result. This is where I feel the issue has really taken hold. Enchanter game play is generally lacking since many of LoL's enchanters are rather stale and bland in how they work in the game in comparison to newer champs.

Now, in order to iron out the issue here, I'm going to reference a little something I remember from back when I was playing fighting games competitively with my friends. Namely..."fireballs" (name for nearly any projectile in a fighting game, even if it's not on fire). Basically, the reason why projectiles in fighting games are so important, especially 2-D fighting games, is because it keeps players engaged in the match. In 3D fighters, backwards mobility is rather sluggish in comparison to forward mobility, so turtling is just naturally hard. This isn't the case (as much) in 2D fighting games, and the screen stretching backwards allows for players to back up a decent ways from the enemy. To keep players interacting even when they aren't in range to interact, projectile attacks serve as a constant threat that players can use against opponents.

With that said, the takeaway from that is "interaction". The action is exciting and appreciable when your character interacts with the opponent. So why am I calling out enchanters here? Because tank supports, as melee champs, naturally interact with opponents up-close and personal the minute they do anything. Braum blocking shots with his body. Leona hooking squishy backliners. Blitz pulling the wrong damn dude again. Nautilus forcing someone to stand still for 3 seconds. Most of the things tank supports do immediately promote player interaction between them and the opponent in some fashion. With this in mind, I think most of the tank supports, if not all of them, are well designed champs. They have appreciable, noticeable game play that incorporates enemies and allies alike and involves counter-play.

So now with THAT done, I can contrast that with enchanters. The problem is that enchanter game play is usually less "well done" in comparison to the tank supports. Nami and Bard are pretty aight, but then again those are the latest 2 enchanters made, save Ivern, if I'm not mistaken, and Ivern doesn't count for this. The "problem enchanters", as far as I see it, fall into one of these categories:

  • They're someone like Janna or Soraka where their core game play is nothing but mashing your cock block button(s) from within a bush.

  • They're someone like Sona, Karma, or Lulu where itemization encourages you to play like Janna or Soraka sooner or later anyway, because we haven't found a single other good stat, active, or passive for enchanters to build in their items outside of shields and heals.

Basically, the game takes the thought of "interacting with opponents" and chunks it out the window. Think of top/mid/jg, right? Top is melee vs. melee usually, where people are close-ranged scrapping it out until someone brings Quinn and the other guy's not having fun. Mid lane's ranged vs. ranged usually, where people are lining up shots and dodging attacks. Jungle has been changed for the sole sake of having players not pve so they'd go meet n' greet their fellow enemies. Riot themselves are clearly on record stating that they wanted more pvp going on in the game a while back. It's pretty clear that the point here is that when we're actually interacting with the enemy, the game's generally more fun. Yet, with enchanters, their kits are kind of the flip-side of this, and if it isn't, we're more than ready to make them play like it is anyway. For people that are about to say otherwise, do note that itemization changes your approach to a game. If you're building shields and heals, you're going to play into shields and heals. If there's nothing else to build into for an alternative approach to the game, the ONLY thing you're going to play into is shields and heals. Not interactive = not fun = less appeal = less support players.

That's my take on the issue with enchanters.

39 Comments

IxtaliKing4 votes

I hope Riot does an Enchanter update next, I think it would do a lot more for the game than a Diver update.

WoonStruck2 votes

No it wouldn't do a lot more for the game, but its arguably as important as a Diver update.

Divers are a much more glaring issue at the moment, so I'd personally rather have a Diver update sooner than later.

IxtaliKing6 votes

My reason behind saying Enchanters is because like the op said, they make up most of the support role. Support has been the most unpopular position for such a long time and it would be nice to see that change.

But fair enough, maybe because I don't really play Divers I'm a bit ignorant to their glaring issues, what's their big issues?

Spoofghoul2 votes

not much besides them being mobile juggernauts basically

i think an enchanter update is more important

i think half the diver issues will actually be addressed by the vanguard update

IxtaliKing1 votes

i think half the diver issues will actually be addressed by the vanguard update

This is what I was assuming, the Diver issue seems to be more of a game health one which could be partially solved by the Tank update. I mean, I'd love to see a proper Aatrox rework, but surely he can get a standalone update. I think solving the support issue would have a much larger impact on the game as a whole.

Spoofghoul1 votes

You know, speaking of Aatrox he should be a fighter/enchanter or maybe a juggernaut/enchanter

Similar to how Sion is a juggernaut/tank

Sion is more of a crossbreed between a juggernaut and tank

They should make Aatrox have some enchanter qualities it would fit his lore

IxtaliKing1 votes

I agree that he should have some team utility, but he can have that without the Enchanter label like Flora, she is a Skirmisher with an AoE heal. I think Aatrox would be cool as a Diver/Skirmisher hybrid, with a utility ult for his team.

Edit: I think Skirmisher is a good fit for him because they tend to have a lot outplay and duelling potential in their kits, and his lore paints him to be some graceful warrior whose sword techniques are stylish and hypnotic. Sounds very Skirmisher-like.

WoonStruck2 votes

Its more playing AGAINST divers, as well as diversity among them in general.

Their interaction with itemization vs either assassins, skirmishers, tanks, or juggernauts is a bit out of line.

It leads to a lot of stat-check situations that are much like old Assassins...but tanky.

Once that's addressed, enchanters will be in a better place to receive adjustments, tbh. Divers lower their chances of succeeding in the 'support' role right now and make CC+damage a better option for the most part.

IxtaliKing2 votes

The tank item changes might put Divers in a more reasonable place though. We'll have to see, I guess. I wouldn't mind, but I'd just prefer to see an Enchanter update and an independent Aatrox rework.

An Enchanter update would have much wider implications for the game as a whole. If Riot were to meaningfully address the support issues and make the role more attractive, more people would be willing to learn the role.

Could probably even reduce queue times since more people would want to play Support. Idk, all I know is that the support role in this game is really poor and unsatisfying, and has been for too long.

WoonStruck1 votes

Enchanters won't be extremely useful until damage is tuned down and offensive supports aren't as obscene.

Pressure is always more effective than denying it, so if its an option, it will always be the superior option for supports. That needs to be addressed before Enchanters can approach a decent design.

Healing/shielding more than offensive supports deal isn't the answer, and that's about all they can do to make enchanters equal to or better than offensive mage supports, currently.

I would love an enchanter update, personally, but I feel it would be largely wasted with the state the game is currently in.

The fact that enchanters aren't 'viable' right now shows how bad the state of the game is in.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I think more Enchanters need better offensive tools and deeper kits so they aren't completely dependant on a marksman.

Passive playstyles tend to be boring, and they're especially horrible when you're forced into it. Healing/Shielding is cool base a champ around, but not an entire class, it's just boring.

I also feel like more Enchanters should be given solo lane flexibility.

WoonStruck1 votes

I feel like supports need to be redesigned as a whole, tbh.

Push each toward a specific goal. Engaging, peeling, disengaging, etc, but in a way that actually has trade-offs for that potential.

It being done in a way that can't solo-carry, but in a way that enables her team without simply providing stat-check or absurd utility.

Alistar is a good example of this.

Achieving that for enchanters with current design would be a tad difficult, though.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I agree with increasing and diversifying their specialisations, as long as it's increasing their interactivity and allowing them to being better champs in their own right.

I don't think its a good idea to have a class of champs who are entirely dependent on a having a marksman to function. Until that's addressed, mages will always be more attractive picks as support.

WoonStruck2 votes

Having marksmen to function? No.

Being able to support their team in a very specific way, which may or may not include babysitting the marksman? yes.

I'm for getting rid of the duo-bot set-up entirely. I think multiple setups should be viable, similar to DotA.

However, Riot nerfs anything else that comes up, so that probably wouldn't go over very well. Hell, the bans against counter-jungle nunu support prove this very well.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I agree entirely

Nymzo2 votes

The only divers that need changes are Aatrox and Irelia.

The rest only needs to be nerf a little bit.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Aatrox Diana MonkeyKing and maybe Elise or Hecarim would probably be the big targets in a Diver update. The rest of the Divers are either fine or are on the tier 1 VGU list Irelia Pantheon XinZhao .

novac37213 votes

I think this is pretty accurate, when the new gold items became a thing a while back I took up support and loved it, especially Thresh . I tried picking up new supports, and was more drawn to champions like Galio Leona Lux Poppy Nautilus Shen Velkoz and even Zac . And the more I look at it, it's because those champs let me have a real impact on how my lane did. playing champs like Soraka just felt like I wasn't doing anything.

There's nothing wrong with shields and heals, but the fact that you're just a buff machine makes the experience feel lackluster. When I play support, I can feel proud to land a hook, or a stun. pressing the shield button isn't rewarding.

maybe the solution to this is to require more interaction in order to use the abilities. ex: an ability where you target an ally, and if you then succeed doing X, they are healed/shielded?

just my thoughts as a support player.

chipndip13 votes

THIS is the type of discussion I want to push with this thread. I definitely feel like basing an entire champ around mashing a button rather than really digging into the LoL experience is a problem with the enchanter sub-class. Something needs to be done about it.

WoonStruck1 votes

Spot on. That goes for your OP as well.

This is why I absolutely hate the new Taric.

They changed him from a support-bruiser who could potentially 1v1 AD champs at various points of the game, to a boring, generic heal/shield-spam with the occasional CC thrown in.

The ONLY positive change with his rework, as far as gameplay, was his E.

Teridax682 votes

I can agree with this, a long-standing issue with many classic supports is that their core playstyle amounts to hanging back and preventing the marksman from dying, which could be fine if it were on just one or two champions, but which becomes a problem when everyone in the subclass ends up doing the same. I agree that part of the issue is with support items giving a stat that focuses exclusively on heals and shields, which means that the support's offensive abilities don't get to grow as much, thereby ushering even more aggressive supports like Karma, Lulu or Sona into more passive playstyles.

I think part of the solution should be through support itemization, which should aim to enhance all utility, rather than just defensive abilities. AP is not a good support stat, but the bonus heals/shields passives only boost a portion of support abilities, and only the defensive portion at that. I'd like to itemize in such a way that Janna gives her shielded target more AD, Lulu gives her allies more attack speed, and Sona provides more on-hit damage with her aura. On top of that, though, several supports need gameplay changes to encourage more aggressive playstyles: Lulu and Sona are prime candidates, and I think even Janna and Soraka could use a few tweaks so that they'd put themselves at greater risk. Soraka, for example, is too good at poking from a distance and healing herself and her ally passively, and I think it would be better for her to revert back to her instant self-heal, but instead have much shorter range on her Q and E, so that she wouldn't be able to do anything unless she legitimately put herself at risk.

LankPants2 votes

They're someone like Janna or Soraka where their core game play is nothing but mashing your cock block button(s) from within a bush.

I'd actually disagree that this applies to Janna. Janna actually does interact with her enemies heavily abet in a non-traditional way. With the exception of her E all of her abilities are enemy affecting. She's a peel specialist, it's something that's always going to be niche in terms of appeal but it's not really uninteractive. Maybe it's uninteractive in as much as it makes you as a player against a Janna not want to interact with her as much, but she's certainly not just sitting back and being a potion for her carry like Soraka is.

For Soraka I'd certainly agree. I have no idea what to do about this though, as long as her core is "the healer" this will always be a problem.

They're someone like Sona, Karma, or Lulu where itemization encourages you to play like Janna or Soraka sooner or later anyway, because we haven't found a single other good stat, active, or passive for enchanters to build in their items outside of shields and heals.

I think Lulu's in a pretty good spot right now, all of her abilities sans Q encourage you to consider whether the ally cast or enemy cast is more useful, in R's case whether you use more for HP or knockup. She's probably one of the best examples in the class right now, it's probably between her and Bard.

The problem with Karma is that she shouldn't even be an enchanter. The complete list of ally interacting abilities she has is her E. Right now she just has too much power focused in her E and not enough in Q/W. Ideally she should be 67% mage and 33% support, right now there's so much power in her E that it's more like 33% mage and 67% support.

Sona's problem is that Riot seem to have designated her as "super simple beginner champ" and refuse to let her kit have any real depth. A consequence of this is that Sona can't really be relevant in high level play, even when she was at a 58% win rate in solo queue she was a well bellow average competitive pick. I think there's 2 things that should be done about this. Firstly her Q should just be a skillshot, there's just not much place for such heavily targeted ranged champions in LoL at this point IMO. The second thing Riot should do is add some depth into the choices she makes on her passive. I think the current 1 of "3" passive where you either Q for damage or E for slow is just too simple, I'd like to see it changed to be based off of the last 3 spells you cast rather than just 1, I've heard this concept referred to as "Invoker Sona", but I certainly wouldn't want to see Riot go as far as Invoker where her passive ends up feeling like 9 completely distinct spells, rather I'd like to see her passive feel like the effects of her spells stack, the more Qs you have the more damage you deal, the more Ws you have the more you impair the enemies damage and the more Es you have the more you impair enemy movement. I think this would have a lot more depth than her current auras, which end up being "are you winning? OK, win harder".

Nami and Bard are pretty aight, but then again those are the latest 2 enchanters made, save Ivern, if I'm not mistaken, and Ivern doesn't count for this. The "problem enchanters", as far as I see it, fall into one of these categories:

I'm surprised you list Nami as alright, outside of Soraka she's probably the worst of the enchanter class. Her E is just brain dead "slap on the carry". Her W is effective in roughly the same way regardless of her target and her Q and R seem to be only usable as followup due to just how slow they are.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Lulu, Karma and Sona used to be played as carries.

chipndip17 votes

I mean...that only reinforces what I said about itemization making them play more like passive shield bots now...

The MechE1 votes

Healing supports work fine in Heroes of The Storm and they are interactive enough.

Maybe League is just too different though since things die so fast.

50000000000000001 votes

Is designing to make them focused on interacting with allies particularly a bad design? Maybe the buffs are mostly too simplistic (heals/shields and movement speed increase, mostly), or the way buffs are applied are too reliable and simple.

chipndip12 votes

It isn't necessarily objectively bad, but focusing them around that as hard as this game does sure is fucking boring.

And yes, the buffs are too simplistic. Also, Riot doesn't do debuffs for some reason. Just makes matters worse.

50000000000000001 votes

I'm not really suggesting debuffs, although in moderation they can be good (like Sona's W power chord) and feel impactful for both sides.

I mean things more like Nami's heal which rewards trading with enemies together (healing or damaging two targets), or Taric's heal which can potentially heal all 5 teammates at once. Compare this to Soraka, whose healing abilities are all targeted. Sure, she needs to land Qs to empower the healing, but the reward is fairly small.

chipndip12 votes

I mean, look at what other games do for support-style characters:

  • Damage buffs/Debuffs
  • Defense buffs/Debuffs
  • Healing
  • Shielding
  • Soft/Hard crowd control

This game?

  • Healing
  • Shielding
  • Soft/Hard crowd control

Save for very fringe cases, anyway. It's unimaginative. It's repetitive. It gets old. Worst of all, it contributes to LoL's balancing issues where we just cycle the top picks rather than champs having actual niches since everyone does a variant of the same thing.

50000000000000001 votes

Damage buffs are actually not uncommon in League enchanters. Just off the top of my head, I can think of Nami, Janna, and Sona, for increasing damage. There's also several enchanters who can increase DPS by increasing attack speed.

Defense buff is definitely uncommon though. I think only Taric has one, but as a passive. I guess Orianna has one too, although she seems irrelevant to this discussion since the topic is support position, and Orianna support is a very rare pick. That's a design space.

That said, I'm not sure if we're on the same page. I'm saying that heals/shields/hastes are fine, as long as how they're applied is different. I mean, all the artillery mages offer some variants of long range magic damage, and all tanks offer some variants of hard CC, but there's definitely a lot of in-class variety there.

Enchanters as a class is about buffing allies, and so they're going to have heals, shields, hastes (MS increase) as well as various CC (I mean, pretty much every champion has some CC in their kit or core build). But if how they apply those effects varies, that could create strategic niches. Now enchanters in League don't have much diversity as a class, but that isn't just because they all give heals, shields, and hastes. It's partly due to itemization, but also because everything is targeted.

chipndip12 votes

Sona gives one on-hit to AAs. Nami gives 3. That's different from just straight buffing damage stats. Only Janna does that. Everyone else's buff is marksman-specific, and that's not what I'm saying.

Anywho, we're somewhat on the same page, as we usually are, seeing how our ideas sort of intertwine save the overall destination, where you want itemization for a brand new stat and I want new itemization that caters to the gap Riot left in supports since before I even began playing this game. I think that heals/shields/hastes/cc is fine, but this is too shallow to have on this many bot lane enchanters and counting(?). They're all repeats of themselves, so the best variant for the week is the one you see. It's too lazy and too "safe". There are more ideas one could use for what a support-oriented champ can bring to the game.

Also, I think enchanters shouldn't all be pushed into the same heal/shield corner so hard. There needs to be options. Sometimes I may want to take that approach, but if I want to be more hands-on in fights, I literally...LITERALLY am told to not play support anymore. Other classes have defensive itemization for offensive classes, and offensive itemization for defensive classes, for whenever the need arises. Enchanters are told to go play mid lane or sit for 30 minutes pinching pennies for a Luden's. Too bad no one cares enough to address these issues.

Aptest1 votes

yes. buffs, shields and heals are by nature bad design, IF the player you wish to attract is me.

interacting with allies is by nature reactive, with very few exemptions (kalista's R, thresh lantern, bard tunnel, TK's R and W mostly). The optimal use case in soloQ is you responding to something your allies do or something your opponents do by deploying the buff. in each of those cases your allies or opponents make the decisions and cause the actions, and you are a secondary actor influencing the results that other players decide on.

Kalista's R is an exemption because you are forcing your ally into an action. thereby you are the decision maker. Thresh and Bard, TK's R are exemptions because instead of you interacting with allies, you give your allies the option of interacting with you. Which naturally puts you in the lead position.

Zone of Endless1 votes

Support don't always have to interact with their enemies to be fun. Most people find that fun because they can see the immediate effect of it which is what Riot wants for their LCS. Interacting with your team through abilities and save them in clutch moment is what is fun for me and that's why I like to support. I want to save teammates and follow up on an engage with my heal/buffs to ensure that we win fights and eventually the game.

The single biggest problem with enchanter is they have AP scaling on their abilities. Because Riot added AP scaling they had to reduce the base stats. Enchanters dont want to have offensive items to bolster their defensive/utility skills. They want to stack utility items on top of their kit. Not to mention their AP scaling is so terrible that most of the AP they build is wasted on them. So then they face the problem of having a decent numbers for building AP, or terrible numbers for building utility. This make them weaker overall at all stages through the game.

chipndip12 votes

What a few people like isn't what the majority like. Some people just like playing passive in competitive games. That's not the norm. If it was often enough, I wouldn't have to make this thread.

Zone of Endless1 votes

{quoted}

What a few people like isn't what the majority like. Some people just like playing passive in competitive games. That's not the norm. If it was often enough, I wouldn't have to make this thread.

Yeah. I know the kind of play style i like isn't liked by many. Which suck a lot because Riot is changing that just for LCS.

Aptest1 votes

I am more enjoying the game when i am the one that causes the team fight to happen, that chooses the targets and that forces the targets to die to my team mates. this is a much more enjoyable experience for me than the one who is dedicated to preventing my allies from suffering this fate.

i like utility items very much... just not the ones that shield and heal. I enjoy purchasing and using FQC and shurelia's reverie. I used to purchase ZZrot every game before it got trashed. I like the gameplay around knight's vow.

On the topic of interacting with opponents (on enchanters):

The problem is tank supports and their access to sustain. In order to make them endure the harass that such an approach entails, the harass has to be ineffective.

that's a problem because as an enchanter facing a tank, i have to thread very carefully with my harass or else. A tank's single combo with his ADC deletes me, whereas I have to fire 10 combos to deal with him. since the harass is not effective enough anyway i'll just not level my damaging abilities and focus on buffing allies.

but if you make me have effective harass with spells or rewarding harass with AAs (rewarding = removing 15%+ of the enemy tank support's max hp), the tank players will QQ like ther's no tomorrow.

i don't have the solution here.

Zone of Endless1 votes

{quoted}

I am more enjoying the game when i am the one that causes the team fight to happen, that chooses the targets and that forces the targets to die to my team mates. this is a much more enjoyable experience for me than the one who is dedicated to preventing my allies from suffering this fate.

i like utility items very much... just not the ones that shield and heal. I enjoy purchasing and using FQC and shurelia's reverie. I used to purchase ZZrot every game before it got trashed. I like the gameplay around knight's vow.

On the topic of interacting with opponents (on enchanters):

The problem is tank supports and their access to sustain. In order to make them endure the harass that such an approach entails, the harass has to be ineffective.

that's a problem because as an enchanter facing a tank, i have to thread very carefully with my harass or else. A tank's single combo with his ADC deletes me, whereas I have to fire 10 combos to deal with him. since the harass is not effective enough anyway i'll just not level my damaging abilities and focus on buffing allies.

but if you make me have effective harass with spells or rewarding harass with AAs (rewarding = removing 15%+ of the enemy tank support's max hp), the tank players will QQ like ther's no tomorrow.

i don't have the solution here.

If that makes it more fun for you to play the game/support role then that's fine. I just don't like that one way of playing support in this game is being stifled.

The only solution to this problem is to remove AP scaling and increasing the base stat of those enchanters for them to be good again.

They are not the type of champion to build AP and their scaling is terrible. If we increase their base by removing AP scaling then they have a niche they can fill in the team as a real support that can buff and heal teammates to keep them alive instead of being mediocre at everything.

I guess that's the problem. They're generalist and Riot don't like that.

Aptest1 votes

i don't know whether this is going to be good or bad. i can't see the whole of the picture i feel.

Zone of Endless1 votes

{quoted}

i don't know whether this is going to be good or bad. i can't see the whole of the picture i feel.

If they have higher base stat then they can scale better as the game progresses. They're trading AP scaling for better base number so that they can build utility items without their kit feeling gimped.

Right now with AP scaling they either build utility items and have terrible skill stats, or build AP and have an okay power on their abilities.

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