Dear Team mates: Shaco. Is. Not. An. Early. Game. Champion. Any. More.

ChickenWrap·Feb 1, 2017·6 votes·3,146 views

Seriously. Stop acting like I have Kha'Zix or Rengar or Graves or Vi or Hecarim levels of burst damage.

I don't.

I scale, like Jax or Vayne or Tristana or Yi. I can't easily gank for you at level 3 -- My stealth lasts one second. I can't invade the enemy Jungler -- There are very few match-ups I win at low levels. I need my Jungle gold -- I scale with items. It's just as frustrating for me as it is for you that I can't gank the Poppy or Jayce when they have a few kills. It's just as frustrating for me that Graves and Lee have 700 damage burst at level 6 while mine is half of that. But if you let me get gold, at 35 minutes into the game, I can promise you I'll be able to do my job as an assassin. But I need gold, and I need your patience to let me get there. Sure, I can help, but I won't be much of one, not until I can do damage.

47 Comments

DreadlocksFeb 1, 20175 votes

you must not be very good at shaco if u feel this way lol

ChickenWrapFeb 1, 20173 votes

It looks like you play FoTM Junglers and avoid Shaco, so you're literally the exact kind of person I'm addressing in this post.

NiamhNyxFeb 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}

It looks like you play FoTM Junglers and avoid Shaco, so you're literally the exact kind of person I'm addressing in this post.

You know, from the shaco mains i have seen, they all shit on other players early game. just saying.

ChickenWrapFeb 1, 20173 votes

Not me, but I suppose Diamond play and Silver play are different.

I've talked to and witnessed many other high level Shaco's play and they say the same thing. Shaco is not any sort of early-game champion.

ChickenWrapFeb 1, 20171 votes

And let's go into details on why you're wrong:

Shaco's Backstab deals 120% damage. 80% reduced from 200%. It scales up to be 145% damage. 55% reduced from 200% of a crit. Once you get IE, it's 195% damage, 5% reduced from 200% of a crit. The only time you get a full 250% damage crit is if your crit takes place of backstab -- negating the ability completely.

Shaco's Q max is mandatory to gank It's damage scaling is paltry (+20 to +80). It is the damage of an auto-attack + 20 that has some AP scaling so AP Shaco can feel good about using it.

Jack In The Box is not maxed because it's useless for burst damage and only useful for ganking -- assuming your enemy doesn't turn around and run away or kill it before the 2 second arm time is up. Its fear is .5 seconds long, scaling up to 1.5 seconds and is a trap -- only really useful if you get someone to walk into it but still able to be used on occasion.

Shaco's E may scale off total AD, but its damage starts at 5, scaling up to 125. Its execution damage is paltry and has no place even being on the spell. 3% to 8%? Sure. Shaco's shiv can make your auto-attacks slow, but only if you don't throw it. I guess that's why the execute damage is there?

Shaco's R has the AD Shaco has but less. Literally. It's just a less damaging vesrion of Shaco. Needs AD to do damage.

So you tell me where in his kit Shaco has any form of early game dominance.

DreadlocksFeb 2, 20174 votes

I play FoTM junglers? and avoid Shaco? Shaco is 1 of the best junglers in the game lol.. I 1 tricked Rengar for 2 seasons and barely play him after the rework, and now i play graves?

http://www.champion.gg/champion/Shaco

HMMMMMM?

http://www.champion.gg/champion/Graves

Yeah totally playing a busted champ.

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

Graves, Rengar, Lee, Vi, Hecarim...

Shaco is not one of the best Junglers in the game, lol. Not for someone who's not good with him.

Don't you even TRY to sit there and tell me "Graves is balanced", rofl.

DreadlocksFeb 2, 20174 votes

Far more balanced than shaco at the moment!! thats for damn sure. And ive been playing lee sin since i started back in season 4, because hes fun. rotfl.

And guess what, you play vi, hecarim, warwick, ziggs, CAMILLE, KHA'ZIX???? yeah bud.. you have such a strong argument over champion choice.

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

When did Warwick become FoTM?

I play Ziggs mid, done it since his release, you'll notice I play the odd game with him here and there.

Camille plays right into the fantasy of champion I enjoy most -- So does Kha'Zix, whom you'll also notice I've been playing since his release.

But I'd like to point your attention to this:

https://gyazo.com/61f3fe75f3f2f8cd2fd8e23a7adf6a91.jpg

Shaco: 103 Played Camille (next most games played): 5

So are you going to sit there ad tell me that I frequently play FoTM champions and call me a hypocrite?

I have 29 games played total across every single one combined. You have 56 between just Vi Rengar and Lee.

Graves has the burst damage of an assassin and the tankiness of a bruiser with the added benefit of being a ranged champion with a ridiculous execute.

Shaco's burst at 6 is about 350. Graves' burst is about 700 and he does it in the blink of an eye.

Just because you main Graves doesn't mean he's suddenly more balanced.

DreadlocksFeb 2, 20171 votes

ur also picking 2 champions in my line up that I have mained for years so I don't see ur point. Shaco is FoTM so quit trying to deny that.

let's not forget that when ur not playing shaco, u are picking FoTM champs.

PermabannedGarenFeb 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Graves, Rengar, Lee, Vi, Hecarim...

Shaco is not one of the best Junglers in the game, lol. Not for someone who's not good with him.

Don't you even TRY to sit there and tell me "Graves is balanced", rofl.

Graves may not be balanced, but he is not as strong as Shaco right now.

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

Let me guess. "Shaco is strong because I don't know how to play the game in early/mid and it's stifling!"

Graves does literally everything relating to juggling better than Shaco does for most of the game until Shaco gets tons of gold and starts being able to actually kill people on his own.

PermabannedGarenFeb 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Let me guess. "Shaco is strong because I don't know how to play the game in early/mid and it's stifling!"

Graves does literally everything relating to juggling better than Shaco does for most of the game until Shaco gets tons of gold and starts being able to actually kill people on his own.

Not at all, I can't remember the last time I personally saw a Shaco.

That might be true, but whatever it is Shaco does, it makes him better than Graves.

God Shaco players are so whiny.

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

Shaco is a better late game carry than Graves but Graves does everything up until that point better than him and you're saying that makes Shaco better than Graves?

We've been a subject of insult and ridicule for years and nobody actually understands our champion except when he starts to finally get a little good, people scream bloody murder even though they still don't understand our champion. Whiny? Nah. Defensive over our favourite champion that people don't understand but still make assumptions over? Sure.

PermabannedGarenFeb 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Shaco is a better late game carry than Graves but Graves does everything up until that point better than him and you're saying that makes Shaco better than Graves?

If he's performing better than Graves due to those reasons? Absolutely.

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Shaco/Jungle/

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Graves/Jungle/

And while Graves is hardly performing poorly, Shaco is in fact performing better than Graves.

We've been a subject of insult and ridicule for years and nobody actually understands our champion except when he starts to finally get a little good, people scream bloody murder even though they still don't understand our champion. Whiny? Nah. Defensive over our favourite champion that people don't understand but still make assumptions over? Sure.

Holy shit the victim complex on you. I'm a fucking Yasuo main, don't even try to talk to me about people hating and ridiculing you LOL.

I'm not even hating on Shaco as a champion, just saying that currently he is overtuned and needs some power stripped off. And he does.

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

WIn/Loss statistics have literally nothing to do with champion strengths and performance

Ryze is broken as all hell and his win ratio is below 45%. http://lolalytics.com/champion/Ryze/ For example, of course.

Yasuo? Yeah but people dislike Yasuo but people dislike Shaco literally just as much. He is not overtuned, he was, for one patch, then Riot took a baseball bat to his knees and he hasn't been that strong since. He went from great early/mid, OK late to bad early, great mid/late, to bad early/mid, great late.

His AP build is no longer viable at all and the best way to build him is as a tank/bruiser because he can't reliably do his job as an assassin anymore. When Riot fucks your champion so hard that his best build is as a bruiser instead of his intended role of assassin not because it's OP but because it's the only way to do damage? Then you have a problem, and that's literally what Riot did and people are still sitting here saying "Shaco's best at early game and he's OP" because they don't understand how he works.

PermabannedGarenFeb 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

WIn/Loss statistics have literally nothing to do with champion strengths and performance

What a mind-numbingly stupid statement.

Ryze is broken as all hell and his win ratio is below 45%. http://lolalytics.com/champion/Ryze/ For example, of course.

Ryze is very strong once mastered.

Shaco is also much stronger than most champions when mastered, and also happens to be performing much better in general.

Yasuo? Yeah but people dislike Yasuo but people dislike Shaco literally just as much.

No they don't. That's just your whiny victim complex talking. Your champion does not have dozens of threads on the boards asking for nerfs when he's not even that strong. Shaco is objectively much stronger than Yasuo was last patch, much less now, and I can't remember the last "Nerf Shaco!" post I saw.

He is not overtuned, he was, for one patch, then Riot took a baseball bat to his knees and he hasn't been that strong since. He went from great early/mid, OK late to bad early, great mid/late, to bad early/mid, great late.

He hasn't been "that strong since" in the sense that he is no longer the undisputed best champion in the game, sure.

His AP build is no longer viable at all and the best way to build him is as a tank/bruiser because he can't reliably do his job as an assassin anymore. When Riot fucks your champion so hard that his best build is as a bruiser instead of his intended role of assassin not because it's OP but because it's the only way to do damage? Then you have a problem, and that's literally what Riot did and people are still sitting here saying "Shaco's best at early game and he's OP" because they don't understand how he works.

Yet he's statistically performing extremely well with high damage items like duskblade, triforce, shiv, IE, ravenous hydra, etc.

Now, if you want to complain to Riot that Shaco isn't fulfilling his champion identity properly by building like a bruiser, fine, go ahead. But no matter his build, he is still one of the best junglers in the game right now. Sorry if this bothers you.

IA9hRfpP5qFeb 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TRcJ8J9i,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-01T21:29:35.410+0000)

you must not be very good at shaco if u feel this way lol

LOL XD DESTROYED THE CHICKENWRAP

TheHappyReaperzFeb 1, 20173 votes

You have a second of invis, combined with a fairly large blink.

ChickenWrapFeb 1, 20172 votes

You mean a spell with less range than flash?

Yeah sure, if you say so I guess.

So when he uses his less-than-flash + 1 second of invis to reach you, how does he keep you from walking away while he deals zero damage to you?

TheHappyReaperzFeb 2, 20172 votes

The CC in his kit? Whoever is getting ganked assisting with some form of CC? Also, Shaco's blink has 400 range. Flash has 425.

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20172 votes

So like I literally just said, "less range than flash"? Thanks for confirming that for me.

The CC in his kit that takes 2 seconds to arm that he can't realistically set with 1 second of invisibility available to him?

You imply that everyone has CC that they'll land.

You're just proving my point that Shaco is not an early game champion at all.

TheHappyReaperzFeb 2, 20172 votes

You stated that his blink was less then flash, as if it was a severe reduction. However, it is a minor difference of 25 units.

Regardless, Shaco also has an innate slow in his AA, which you should be able to land.

While it is true that champs often have unreliable CC, as a proficient jungler, you should be able to understand which lanes you should and should not gank.

PhifeFeb 2, 20173 votes

Shaco is straight up garbage in the jungle, play him top.

TeemodanegroFeb 2, 20171 votes

This^^^^

Shaco is only good as a AP top laner right now. shouldn't be playing him in the jungle at all, They just nerfed camps hard for champs without clear speed and Shaco can't even clear red side of jungle...

TequilaZombieFeb 2, 20171 votes

Only if you go AP. You can get Wolves, Blue, and Gromp at the same time and proceed to either do a lv 3 gank while the laners are barely reaching level 2, or you can go Red, and then Krugs.

Going for AS or AP Marks helps quite a lot with clearing, as well as an early Tiamat. Now, if you want to take a full AP champion with no AoE or sustain to the jungle and expect it to work, you're in for some trouble.

TeemodanegroFeb 2, 20171 votes

you're delusional.

Theres no reason for you to pick shaco in the jungle atm. He has 0 appealing things about him that are good for jungle play. They took away the blind which is a huge hit to survivability and beyond that he can only stack boxes on the first spawn. which makes 1st buff easy and you basically lose speed as the jungle catches up to your lvl 3 after clearing the other 2 camps you simply cannot clear.

The jungle is decided on how well you clear and IF YOU CAN CLEAR RAPTORS AND GOLEMS.

If you cannot even kill them, so why are you trying to argue you have a fast clear. They gave shaco 4 abilities that scale off ap, if you're not using AP you might as well be playing ad heimerdinger.

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

This is incorrect.

When I Jungle with Shaco, I can clear the whole jungle with a rejuv bead and get out with most of my health in-tact. Full clear if top side, full clear minus raptors if bot side.

On first back you should have the gold for a Tiamat which leads to being able to clear raptors and krugs without issue. You stack 2 boxes at first buff and 2 at krugs or 1 at gromp 1 at wolves.

One box is enough to clear camps.

TequilaZombieFeb 2, 20171 votes

you're delusional.

I've been a Shaco main for the last 6 years and I have well over 500 games on him. I have a fair notion of what he can do.

Theres no reason for you to pick shaco in the jungle atm. He has 0 appealing things about him that are good for jungle play. They took away the blind which is a huge hit to survivability and beyond that he can only stack boxes on the first spawn. which makes 1st buff easy and you basically lose speed as the jungle catches up to your lvl 3 after clearing the other 2 camps you simply cannot clear.

He still finishes his clear quite healthy if you are playing him AD. The biggest difference now is that a Jungle item might need to be finished if you are not ahead enough to just rush an Ravenous Hydra.

The removal of the blind is not new at all, and has been in place for quite a while even before the rework. What he lost was the AS slow he had against jungle camps, but that was made up for by giving him a full crit on backstabs vs jg monsters, which is about 15% stronger than his old passive (assuming 1.0 AS and no CDR, becomes worse with higher values for AS, better with smaller ones).

The jungle is decided on how well you clear and IF YOU CAN CLEAR RAPTORS AND GOLEMS.

I know for a fact that I can finish my 3 first camps with basicly 100% health. If I'm ok with giving up about 10-20% of my hp, I can even finish those 3 camps with Smite still up. Red Buff is easy and Krugs are not a problem if your Smite is up. The only camp that you shouldn't go to without a Tiamat or enough levels is Raptors.

They gave shaco 4 abilities that scale off ap, if you're not using AP you might as well be playing ad heimerdinger.

He only has 1 AP ability more than pre-rework, while taking quite a hit to his AP cheeses with non-stacking boxes (not that they aren't usable, but cheesing a 4 box nest is almost impossible if the enemy doesn't dash to the middle of it).

Also, take a look at the items built and winrate for it: https://na.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle

AP Items are on the lower end of winrates all the time.

They gave shaco 4 abilities that scale off ap, if you're not using AP you might as well be playing ad heimerdinger.

He still is forced to Auto Attack to use his Passive, his Q, his E scales with AD as well, and his ult literally gives you a 50% damage steroid for your auto attacks AND procs your passive with a different timer.

I'm not sure where Shaco is a bad jungler or a bad AD champion right now. Specially since he's having a 4-5% higher winrate on the jungle than on Top lane. https://na.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Shaco/

EDIT:

The jungle is decided on how well you clear and IF YOU CAN CLEAR RAPTORS AND GOLEMS.

POOR ME! I've always thought it was decided based on lane pressure and objective control!

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

Roflmao you ever notice how every high elo says Shaco is bad right now and every low elo says every high elo is an idiot for saying such?

It's almost like Gameplay and Bronze doesn't know champion balance because they're basing it off their own personal unskilled experiences.

TeemodanegroFeb 2, 20171 votes

Phife is my main acc. Would u like it if i posted on him?

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

Did you literally just make a post and then log onto a secondary account to agree with yourself and then say shit that makes your secondary account look like an idiot?

You're right Shaco isn't that good right now comparatively but I don't think you know how to Jungle with him either.

TeemodanegroFeb 2, 20171 votes

Maybe i did, im bored af.

But my statement on shaco stands, there's better picks that do his job better than he does. Sure he may be fun, but if you're wanting to play shaco for fun play him Top. Hes better there anyways.

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

Yes, there are better picks. No, he's not inherently bad at Jungling, you just don't know how to do it.

TeemodanegroFeb 2, 20171 votes

k man sure.

PermabannedGarenFeb 2, 20172 votes

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Shaco/

So it is a statistically verifiable fact that Shaco has a strong early game, he just happens to have a strong late game as well, and a strong mid game.

Because he's overpowered you see.

DreadlocksFeb 2, 20171 votes

exactly..but he mains shaco so he's going to deny it all.

L Psy KongrooFeb 2, 20172 votes

As a fellow Shaco main, I can also attest to his relatively poor early game. The Q nerfs alone mean that it's almost impossible to gank even a semi-competent laner until at least level 4. With only 1.5 seconds of invisibility, Shaco simply cannot close the gap fast enough to get within auto attack range unless the enemy is severely unaware.

For reference, with Shaco's base movement speed of 350, it takes between 2.5 and 3.5 seconds to move from a safe ganking position to the middle of a lane even while utilizing Q. This assumes that the lane is dead center, not pushed towards either side, so it could potentially take more or less time. Even when he gets there, the chances of successfully landing a box fear in this mobility-laden meta is almost nill.

The only way Shaco gets anything done early game is if the enemies are stupid. Now granted, that was true before the changes; but now it is even more so. Shaco has always been the type of champion who thrives on opposing mistakes. And the primary reason people hate Shaco is because they hate admitting when they've fucked up. It's so much easier to say "NERF SHACO, STEALTH OP" rather than look analytically at the situation and think "you know what, that death was entirely my fault". The fact of the matter is Shaco has always had counterplay: proper positioning, map awareness, foresight, adaptive ward placements, and of course the giant orange cloud of smoke whenever he Qs. But because this counterplay doesn't involve mechanics, people cry about Shaco because they actually have to use their brain when fighting him.

Furthermore, with the nerfs to his passive invading is also out of the question; I haven't seen a serious Shaco player invade the enemy jungle before level 6 since he was first changed. With only 1.5 seconds of invisibility, it's far too easy for the enemies to simply collapse on Shaco before he can make it out. And with the other nerfs to his early game damage, he certainly won't be winning any duels (unless, again, the enemy is stupid and fights him around his boxes).

Riot specifically stated that they wanted to tone down Shaco's early game, so I'm not sure why people are arguing that they didn't. They nerfed his Q duration, E damage, and passive damage all in one swoop making him item-reliant as fuck, then nerfed his ult damage for good measure. Currently he's probably the most snowball-oriented assassin in the game. At least Kha and Rengar can be useful when behind. Recovering from a bad early game as Shaco is almost impossible right now.

ChickenWrapFeb 2, 20171 votes

They don't play Shaco, you have to understand. Anything a Shaco main says about Shaco is incorrect because "I have statistics to prove you otherwise! I main Vi!"

duckarpFeb 2, 20172 votes

But if you let me get gold, at 35 minutes into the game, I can promise you I'll be able to do my job as an assassin.

At 35th minute the game is usually already over.

MatakeFeb 1, 20171 votes

Shaco has never EVER been an early game champion.

ChickenWrapFeb 1, 20171 votes

What? He was an early-game champion until his rework. His late-game was still great pre-rework, but he had a really strong early-game too.

Dasdi96Feb 1, 20171 votes

How come every shaco I see on both my team and every team do well early, but end up being useless late. He still falls off hard late game.

ChickenWrapFeb 1, 20171 votes

Probably because you play in Bronze 2 where people can't close games but are really really awful in lane phase.

JefftiffyFeb 2, 20171 votes

His backstab historically did less damage than a crit even the one on his Q. RIP FotM logic.

Also his early game is not bad now. Its about the same just you can't run in and 1v1 the enemy jungle anymore. His early game strength comes from his Q and E power in early ganks. If you get the right time on a lvl 2 gank you can essentially get a free kill if your lane isn't dumb or is good at baiting.