Where do melee champions go if not top?

Mira Arya Enthe··13 votes·1,201 views

Yes, this is another thread regarding ranged champion dominance and ranged top laners. But unlike the others I am addressing detractors directly. Specifically one thing. Now before I get into this, let us clarify. By ranged champions people are NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST BASIC ATTACKS, we are aware for example that Rumble is 'melee'. He also has ranged spells and poke out the butt. Ranged basic attacks just make the matter even worse. We are talking about ranged harass. This post isn't about solutions or individual champion balance(such as bloated ranged champion problems). It is about one statement.

"Range top laners is for diversity, top doesn't belong to melee champions."

So three points:

1: Why not? Bottom belongs to ranged ADC and a large portion of supports are ranged. Mid almost completely belongs to ranged champions, even the 'melee' champions usually have ranged poke, like Zed or Diana. Again we are talking about RANGED HARASS, not just basic attacks. So why can't top belong to melee champions? If there are two lanes almost completely dedicated to ranged poke and harass(which is what we are talking about, not just ranged AAs), what is wrong with ONE lane being dedicated to melee? Even a large portion of meta junglers have ranged harass such as Nid, Elise, Gragas and Graves.

2: There is a difference between having diversity and having a complete reversal. In the past almost all top laners were melee, now it isn't 50/50, the amount of top laners who have ranged AAs and poke is now the large majority. That isn't diversity, it is simply a shift to the opposite.

3: Where else are the melee champions suppose to go? This is what people are not answering. Sure, SOME can migrate to jungle Shyvana. But a ton of the melee only top laners cannot go anywhere else. They cannot effectively mid, bot pretty much must be ADC and support due to the meta, and many of them have no jungle clear. Where else are they suppose to go?

To clarify, I am a former Teemo main and played a lot of Jayce too. I also love Quinn as a champion even though I do not play her much. I hate champions like Darius, Garen, Mundo and Renekton from past PTSD(This is humor, not serious). But at this point and time, I actually feel sorry for anybody who mains these champions, because beyond low levels of play where they can get by because people don't know how to lane, gank and close out games, they don't stand a chance. And even if they win, it is after an utterly miserable 10-20 minutes of...

Teemo poke... Jayce poke... Gnar poke... Quinn poke... Rumble poke... Gangplank poke... Swain poke... Kennen poke... Pantheon poke... Kayle poke... Vladimir poke...

DISCLAIMER: Again, I don't play melee tops, no bias here. I also realize SOME melees can thrive in top. But the ones who do are mostly champions who were already designed with ranged enemies in mind, for example Ekko and Yasuo were designed to go mid against mages so they can work top, not always but they can(Also they even have ranged poke of their own, not as much, but some). Irelia Is a special exception, she is always at least somewhat viable just due to her kit design. I also am not saying ranged top laners should not exist, they always have. It just wasn't ever this miserable.

The PRIMARY victim top laners being addressed here are: Darius Tryndamere Olaf Shyvana Garen Jax Riven Nasus Renekton Poppy Sion Shen Trundle XinZhao DrMundo Forgive me if I forgot any particular champions for either side of the matter. Or if one or two of these are more viable than I am making it out to be. I'm tired and just getting this typed out as quickly as possible.

27 Comments

Big Lincoln12 votes

they either get relegated to jungle or become useless

riot's balancing is pretty atrocious when it comes to managing ranged vs melee, always has been

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

The baseline problem is just that range is superior. If you can kill an enemy from a foot away or a hundred feet away, a hundred feet is better. Thus why we use guns, missiles, bombs, etc in war in real life. Which means in fantasy and games melee characters have to be much stronger when in range and have tools to get in range to make sure they are valid against range. Some champions just aren't getting that, meanwhile ranged top laners are only getting more overloaded and meta.

Big Lincoln12 votes

problem is Riot has for some reason decided ADCs should be the highest DPS rather than the safest so you get fervor of battle to make attack speed scale even harder, plus crit, plus item 3036 because just having the DPS needed to kill a tank isn't enough, you need to get bonus damage to punish them for building correctly. They also get strong self-peel and are usually mobile, with a good number of them offering a lot of utility to their team

this is basically why melee carries and juggernauts are flawed in league; riot is way more conservative about handing them anything more than damage. They've got very little utility, almost no CC, and in juggernaut cases, no mobility. It's a very poorly drawn line in the sand and I think we need to see more utilitarian purposes for both classes if Riot wants them to be worth picking in the future

Nimble Manta1 votes

Melee ADCs have more dps than ranged ADCs.

Astôlfo3 votes

Both can go full crit/AS. But... Ranged can build Runaan's. Ranged has range to kite from. Ranged also includes Kog with his 5.0 AS.

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

Ranged also includes Kog with his 5.0 AS.

That was reverted.

Astôlfo2 votes

The rest of it still holds. And Kog was an exception anyways.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Riot gave ranged even more safety and other buffs . . . item 3094 Oh what's that, even more range & mobility & burst in one item. item 3046 More movement speed when close to an enemy champion, making them harder to catch by proximity. item 3508 As if their mana costs weren't negligible enough, and even more cdr they didn't need. item 3147 An assassin item, that riot refused to make melee only; and was subsequently abused my marksmen, as predicted.

ItsOrval9 votes

Into the dumpster

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

One solution is to put more bushes top and/or make them smaller patches instead of a long strip.

That way you cannot ward all of them, and melees can duck and weave inside of them to avoid ranged harass.

The beauty is that melees couldnt care less becuase they want to get up close to hurt people. So whag if they facecheck another melee. Let the games begin.

Ralanr2 votes

Idk. I don't want more Rengar top.

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

Or Nidalee/Teemo since both love abusing bushes or maybe even Caitlyn top [slayer-jinx-wink]

Nuparu1 votes

I mean... top Rengar is healthier and more skill reliant than jungle Rengar...

Ralanr1 votes

I don't like jump cat in top.

Ben Sharpio5 votes

i used to play top sion but then ranged opponents and carry top laners became more popular after tank meta and now i play jungle all the time time to move on top lane is getting worse and worse just become a jungle main and your quality of life will be much better and these new plant changes will encourage new people to try jungle and make more champions viable in the jungle

Catastrop4 votes

Here's the thing though, Darius Gnar Illaoi Gangplank Rumble are pretty much why ranged top laners became a necessity in the first place. Like I get where you're coming from, people are acting like melee champions were all innocent in this.

Astôlfo2 votes

Gnar is pseudo-ranged. GP is pseudo-ranged. Rumble is pseudo-ranged.

Darius/Illaoi are like any other juggernaut in toplane. It requires smarter playing and is advantaged towards juggernaut because they're better against melee matchups. It's hardly anything like 'forcing' or a 'necessity' for ranged to come top at all.

Catastrop2 votes

You realize you're just helping me prove my point right? That same pseudo range is what forces a ranged top lane in the first place, otherwise they have a very big advantage over melees. Smarter play is good and all, but why bother with that when you have a much easier time just picking someone they'll never be able to hit, than take the risk with a melee who's objectively going to have a much harder time?

Astôlfo2 votes

Uh no, they are essentially ranged for all that matters. That's like saying Jayce isn't ranged. They are the problem in the first place.

Because a juggernaut has a better laning phase, but a worse post-laning phase?

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TRALYWmu,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-15T03:38:34.154+0000)

The PRIMARY victim top laners being addressed here are: Darius Tryndamere Olaf Shyvana Garen Jax Riven Nasus Renekton Poppy Sion Shen Trundle XinZhao DrMundo Forgive me if I forgot any particular champions for either side of the matter. Or if one or two of these are more viable than I am making it out to be. I'm tired and just getting this typed out as quickly as possible.

I gonna play devils advocate here as I play ranged top a lot and melee top some and think the problem tends to be grossly overstated on these forums because it can feels annoying to play against even if it's balanced because people don't want to adapt their habits and playstyles to work against ranged.

Darius Garen Nasus are suppose to be countered by range kinda of working as intended since that's the whole juggernaut gimmick because of how strong they are in melee vs melee match ups, and forcibly removing ranged from the lane somehow would make them probably OP and in need of nerfs. Also Nasus technically has ranged harass with spirit fire.

Tryndamere needs a rework tbh

Olaf DrMundo both have a lot of ranged harass which they common max first, why are they on this list? Additionally both can jungle decently, Olaf especially been showing up at worlds a fair bit as a jungler.

Shyvana riot seems fine forcing her into the jungle and has done nothing to help her lane with their changes to her jungle performance, so riot should probably just buff her jungle to actually be good again.

XinZhao has been a jungler for a long long long time, not sure why he's listed here.

Riven Jax Renekton do better against ranged than a lot of melees due to their kits sure they aren't Irelia but they can play decently well into ranged match ups, imo. Also Jax is a decent jungler.

Poppy Trundle Shen Sion are generally durable enough that can shrug off ranged harass for most champions not named gnar, sure the poke is annoying for them, but they can definitely survive enough to be more relevant in the midgame than their opponent Plus besides Shen, the other 3 play off & on in the support & jungle role.

Finally where would this leave the ranged AA/spell harassing champions who are only really successful/viable in top lane because you're concerned about these melee without thinking where you'd push the ranged to exactly?

Notably Quinn Teemo Gnar Kennen Jayce Rumble Illaoi Urgot Malphite Pantheon none of who really function that well in any lane outside of top lane currently. You could argue to shift Quinn Teemo Kennen Jayce Urgot into midlaners (I prefer Quinn as midlaner but don't find it as viable as top currently), but I am have no idea how you'd balance them w/o making them worth playing in top again. But making Gnar Illaoi work somewhere outside of top lane is unimaginable for riot to pull that off frankly.

EminenceVoid2 votes

DONT YOU DARE FORGET ABOUT MY BABY, FIORA

ZED G0D1 votes

Well, Jungle theres Amumu Ekko Fizz Hecarim KhazixNocturne Pantheon Rammus RekSai Rengar Sejuani Shaco Shyvana Skarner Trundle Udyr Vi Volibear XinZhao ZacWarwickMasterYiJax ...

Mid lane you have Zed Yasuo Talon Katarina Fizz Illaoi Ekko

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

I am not entirely convinced you red the post through. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

ZED G0D1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TRALYWmu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-10-15T03:58:05.980+0000)

I am not entirely convinced you red the post through. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

TL;DR 100%

ZED G0D1 votes

Bot lane really is a good lane to stay ranged..simply because you DONT want to charge at the ADC and the support in the laning phase and not be able to kit your way out of it...so as far as bot its best to stay ranged

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TRALYWmu,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-15T03:38:34.154+0000)

1: Why not? Bottom belongs to ranged ADC and a large portion of supports are ranged.

bot and top should belong to both ranged and melee.

Boulderox1 votes

Aatrox the jungle isn't the greatest for him either, he is so item reliant on high ticket items that he needs to be uber fed. Also we need to throw in the fact that these top ranged laners mostly have ways to self peel in bad situations, which just adds to the bigger problem. http://img08.deviantart.net/7244/i/2014/185/b/0/aatrox_by_alimika-d7p9jjo.png

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