Why Shyvana is a good champion and why she isn't

Mira Arya Enthe··36 votes·6,108 views

Disclaimer. I am silver, this is my opinions. If you disagree make an argument, and actual argument. Not rank calling.

Good things about Shyvana's design: 1: There is no ability on Shyvana that it feels bad to level. A lot of champions suffer from this "Damn... I am forced to put a point in hawk shot." Thing. With Shyvana, people can argue the value of every single ability choice. Her E is a bit iffy for maxing second but it still doesn't feel bad leveling it.

2: All of her active abilities feel impactful and fun to use. Her E isn't just on hit %HP magic damage, it is a skillshot ability that does initial damage as well. This makes it more interactive and fun, it makes you feel like you are doing something. It isn't just a passive that provides a buff, you actively cause the buff. Her Q feels great every time it hits, I just love this ability, regardless of build, it makes any on hit effects or AD feel amazing, it is both good for chunking and DPS. Her W is great, movement speed and AoE damage feels fun and good, but more than that, it rewards actually hitting with melee attacks by providing flat, on hit magic damage. Lastly, her ultimate! Oh my goodness is this amazing. I can leap through the air, turn into a dragon, get AoE on my E and Q, get a minor singed trail on my W, plus I get a huge buff to defensive stats, a free increase of 10/15/20 armor and MR. Feels good.

3: She isn't that hard to balance. She requires tuning here and there, and any buffs/nerfs to on hit and AS items do affect her. But as her kit doesn't have a million random active effects and complex mechanics, it is easy to keep her at a medium balance by tuning numbers. She has shined at times(devourer) and hurt at times. But overall there isn't the hate fest that people have towards Riot over champions like Azir, where he is useless when nerfed in some levels of play, overpowered in other levels of play when buffed.

4: Quick farm junglers can be fun and interactive. It's just less about ganking, and more about securing early dragons, counter jungler the enemy, stealing camps, and using your superior dueling power to counter gank better ganking junglers.

5: Hybrid damage. We have so few hybrid damage champions left, but my goodness does it feel good. Sure, it means you cannot itemize heavily into penetration, but it also makes you hard to itemize against, meaning you can invest in damage and tanking items instead. Shyvana is also fairly versatile in her builds due to this.

6: Medium item flexibility. Shyvana has good item flexibility. Not too much like some champions who can build anything but succeed, but she also isn't a one trick pony of one item. She can viably build any of the following stats: Attack Speed, Movement Speed, AD, Magic pen, On hit effects, HP, Armor, MR, utility, active mitigation, lifesteal, critical strike chance and HP regen. AP, Armor pen and Crit damage are more questionable on her but usable. Only Mana is truly useless on her. Unlike the bruisers who build Black Cleaver, Deadmans, Spirit Visage and the other same 3 items every single game, her build can vary, even her jungle item. Warrior for CDR, early game dueling power and scaling on W? Bloodrazor because Attack Speed and On hit are so good for her? Cinderhulk for survivability when you are behind or against heavy burst teams without HP stackers? Runic echoes isn't the best option but... it's possible. Overall, flexible champion, but not too flexible.

7: Dragon, rawr.


Bad things about Shyvana as a champion: 1: Her buggy, wonky hit box ultimate, which has a hard to read mechanic, people have been complaining about since her release. Also the lack of unstoppable status during her ult(which people like Vi, Sion and Hecarim get) just feels awful. Jumping through the air as a massive dragon only to be stopped by the first pebble thrown your way is just... ugh... it destroys her post 6 ganking potential against anybody with mild CC and it feels just bad during team fights.

2: Her passive is not very interactive. This is questionable. Her passive use to be on her ultimate. The CDR on her Q, the extended duration of her W and the on hit damage of her E use to be on her passive and instead her passive was on her ult. But the new system puts the passive for her abilities on the abilities, and made the MR and Armor from her ult her passive, letting her benefit from it from lvl1. I can argue both sides. She needs it to retain her early game strength and already has a lot of passive power, so just adding it to her base stats and giving her a new passive could be bad. But also it isn't interactive other than being doubled during Dragon's Descent so it isn't 'fun' to use. But it overall is a good, solid design, so changing it just to add another 3 hit passive, shield or other popular Riot passive, might not be a good idea either.

3: She is heavily item reliant. While she can itemize a lot of choices, she is far too affected by any changes to her stat sticks. As seen when devourer was removed, she lost a lot of power. The reason? Because she is an AA based champion with an AA reset double hit. I don't know how to fix this, but it is an issue she suffers from.

4: She lacks any pre-6 ganking power. Yes, she CAN gank with red buff and chilling smite or Exhaust. And she can counter jungle. And she can counter gank well. But if for any reason the enemy team organizes against her counter jungling, wards well, or the enemy jungler 'counters' her counter jungling. She has a bit of a lost purpose until late game. This could be good or bad, but it should be looked into, just to see where she could use some changes.

5: Her W has too much power and her E and Q too little early game. Making lvling W first the only option.

6: She can no longer be played top. She is one of those few junglers who can literally only be played in one role.

7: She has a low skill ceiling. This isn't necessarily bad, she still saw LCS play in 2012-2015. And there are plenty of high level players who play her. And after all, people could argue many champions have a low skill ceiling like Udyr or Nasus, and say that makes them bad in high levels. Trick2G would say otherwise. These champions, like Shyvana are about map control not mechanical outplays. But all the same, to encourage more people to invest in playing these champions and building skill, map control and strategy with them. I think we could work to find some way to give her a higher skill cap and more map interactivity, without of course destroying her base playstyle and fantasy.


Summary: Shyvana is a solid and fun champion. And any rework on her would have to be VERY careful to keep the core things people love about her; high dueling power, quick jungle clear, high map control, very in your face punchy gameplay, dragon, split pushing and hybrid damage. Maybe even keep in her ability to sort-of build AP. The last thing we need is a Mord/Skarner style rework, that changes her identity and base playstyle. Still, the champion could use some work, and some quality of life changes(especially to her ultimate), in order to keep her valid, and a fun investment for current players.

Thank you for reading.

85 Comments

Keti6 votes

Shyvana doesn't have the damage anymore to justfiy how shitty she is at everything else. Especially with how absurd kiting has gotten, Playing as shyvana vs cassiopeia for example quickly becomes minion simulator 2016.

Riot should be putting her at the end of the rework line around now, and in the meantime make her ult unstoppable to at least throw her a bone.

Weiner the Pooh3 votes

Wait, you're saying that you dont like that if you're not playing a melee with three dashes youre gonna get kited till you wanna afk?

flibitydoo2 votes

I item 3116 love Ashe thisGnar kiteitem 3022 meta

Weiner the Pooh6 votes

Oh yeah me too, especially Rylais, what a healthy and fair item it is. I'm so glad champs who already have 500 range on me can now perma slow me. Looooooooooooooooooove it.

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TR4 votes

On your first positive and 5th negative, back when she was still playable top (and I'd argue you still could do alright there now, but it's definitely very sub optimal), I used to love maxing her E against champions that I couldn't actually fight because when you rank it first the poke can add up pretty quick. Otherwise pretty spot on, though some of your listed "bad things" I see more as intended weaknesses rather than mistakes that need to be fixed, like not being a great ganker without her ultimate. If she could gank super effectively she'd be utterly busted.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

My favorite good thing is No. 7.

Edited because I finally have time for a proper post:

I have a special place for Shyvana in my heart. She was the first champion I heard of when my friend would tell me about the game back in preseason 6. When I finally started my first mains were Garen and Lux. I thought these champs were the protagonists of League and it felt good to play them. When I found out that they were siblings and were part of the "good" nation of Demacia, I was stoked. I made it my mission then to learn every Demacian champion.

I was already hyped to play Shyvana, and when I learned that she was Demacian, I was even more eager to play her. I saved up my IP till I finally bought her. I devoured all the guides I could find on her, made a item page for her, spammed bots on her, spent long nights studying tactics on how to play her.

Finally I tried some normal games. (Back when I still played Blind pick.) I learned something very important.

I suck at Jungling, and I suck at Shyvana. :(

But that was a while ago when I was unranked. Now that I'm a Silver IV and actually have some knowledge of the game, this post rehyped me to give Shyvana another chance.

The LVL100 Baka3 votes

Go for it! Her clears are easy so there shouldn't be a problem there. Maybe try building Talisman over Machete as well. If you're still struggling, you can chuck me any questions here.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Hey thanks, I will! I actually have some questions right now.

  1. Do i farm and only farm, or should I at least try to gank if the enemy laners are getting a little too aggressive?

  2. If I see one of my laners being ganked, should I keep farming or stop what I'm doing and go farm their jungle? Or even countergank?

  3. When is it a good idea to grab the warding smite over the chilling smite?

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

Hey thanks, I will! I actually have some questions right now.

  1. Do i farm and only farm, or should I at least try to gank if the enemy laners are getting a little too aggressive?

  2. If I see one of my laners being ganked, should I keep farming or stop what I'm doing and go farm their jungle? Or even countergank?

  3. When is it a good idea to grab the warding smite over the chilling smite?

You have a few options for ganking. Chilling smite and red buff combined. Taking exhaust, which will also let you went counter jungling duels against anybody. But either way, you still only gank as Shyvana if the enemies are overextended. Otherwise you should focus on getting a massive gold advantage with your clear times. You can also do counter jungling well due to how easy you clear, and you can counter gank due to superior dueling power. For full information, here is a pretty good Shyvana guide to use as a starting point.

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/6-17-shyvana-jungle-total-guide-the-most-in-depth-427599 The guy knows her well, he has SOME bias in some of his opinions on how to play her. But reading this is a great place to start.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Hey thanks, this guide has every answer I could ever want. Thanks for the link!

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

Hey thanks, this guide has every answer I could ever want. Thanks for the link!

No problemo friend. Have a good day!

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Took me a few games of practice, but I finally got her down to a competent level.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2296997554/233261828?tab=overview

I know it isn't stellar, but I'm proud regardless. This was probably my best Shyvana game ever and it's all thanks to that guide and you for linking me. Thanks again!

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

Took me a few games of practice, but I finally got her down to a competent level.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2296997554/233261828?tab=overview

I know it isn't stellar, but I'm proud regardless. This was probably my best Shyvana game ever and it's all thanks to that guide and you for linking me. Thanks again!

Woohoo! Great job!

Skaiserus2 votes

Let me put down a question he might ask later. How am I to gank effectively without CC or a good gap-closer pre-6? How can I influence a game without being able to gank?

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

{quoted}

Let me put down a question he might ask later. How am I to gank effectively without CC or a good gap-closer pre-6? How can I influence a game without being able to gank?

You have a few options for ganking. Chilling smite and red buff combined. Taking exhaust, which will also let you went counter jungling duels against anybody. But either way, you still only gank as Shyvana if the enemies are overextended. Otherwise you should focus on getting a massive gold advantage with your clear times. You can also do counter jungling well due to how easy you clear, and you can counter gank due to superior dueling power. For full information, here is a pretty good Shyvana guide to use as a starting point.

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/6-17-shyvana-jungle-total-guide-the-most-in-depth-427599 The guy knows her well, he has SOME bias in some of his opinions on how to play her. But reading this is a great place to start.

Dealth2 votes

I don't see why people like Shyvana. She's just like Skarner. A boring, auto-attack champion that just soaks up damage.

edit: downvoted for expressing opinion on an internet forum, sorry I'm not a part of your shyvana circlejerk

Mira Arya Enthe12 votes

{quoted}

I don't see why people like Shyvana. She's just like Skarner. A boring, auto-attack champion that just soaks up damage.

Dragon, rawr

Dealth2 votes

She doesn't really deliver on the fantasy of a dragon either. She looks like one, sure, but it doesn't really change her play style at all.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

{quoted}

She doesn't really deliver on the fantasy of a dragon either. She looks like one, sure, but it doesn't really change her play style at all.

No. But she delivers very well on the fantasy of a half dragon. Furious, flaming, fast attacks, moves fast, hits hard, tanks well.

The LVL100 Baka3 votes

Nah, the dragon fantasy is half of why I play her. You fly into a fight, start mauling one target with your claws while AoE to her abilities causes mindless destruction to everyone around you.

Abyssphere1 votes

It doesn't sound to me like you've really given those champions a fair chance given that you are defining Skarner as something he absolutely is not. He is a crowd control pick/peel machine primarily, with a spammable AOE damage tool on top of that. He only has one thing related to autoing in his kit and it's an on-hit stun.

Dealth1 votes

I have rank 5 on skarner, and I can confirm that all he does is spam qweqweqweqwe in a fight, and sometimes ults a squishy target.

Shyvana also spams qweqweqweqwe in a fight, and her ult is just a glorified gragas e.

majulito1 votes

what champ doesn't spam their moves in a fight besides adcs? And even some adcs spam their moves in a fight like lucian.

Dealth1 votes

Most champions you have to aim their moves or atleast think about them. Apart from their e's (which are super easy to land) they don't have to aim anything to put any thought into their moves.

Abyssphere1 votes

He didn't say anything about spamming abilities, he said he was an "auto attack champion". I'm not trying to make out that Skarner is skillful or anything, but it's unfair to lump him in with auto attack fighters damage-based fighters when he does have some level of purpose. He's not Aatrox.

Shyvana is more accurately described by the words he used, yes.

Captain Aishi2 votes

top lane shyv main here,... playing at high plat-low diamond elo (i can guarantee that she's still viable toplane at this ELO still) to your points 1 and 5- E max 1st is something that is viable for farming in hard lane matchups still, and otherwise you max it 2nd (with CDR from triforce and runes you get to permanently mark someone with E so it's way better than Q max for DPS)

and I don't think she has a low skill ceiling at all, teamfighting with her requires insanely good positioning and prediction ability, because you don't have a lot of time to dodge all the skillshots thrown at you from point blank, you have to anticipate them since your role is not to soak them for your team

shyvana toplane is my counterpick to stuff like illaoi and darius, you wreck them in lane the moment they make 1 positioning mistake and you transition into teamfights in a similar role to theirs

recently my item build has been triforce-steraks-GA-frozen mallet-ZZ'rot, the early triforce allows you to murder stuff really fast (with steraks too, your Q hits for almost 700) and the health and resists (+ the revive passive) allow you to transition into a powerfui teamfighter later on (once you'Ve splitpushed top and bot's outer and inner towers, for example)

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TORZXAMk,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-09-17T22:13:39.260+0000)

top lane shyv main here,... playing at high plat-low diamond elo (i can guarantee that she's still viable toplane at this ELO still) to your points 1 and 5- E max 1st is something that is viable for farming in hard lane matchups still, and otherwise you max it 2nd (with CDR from triforce and runes you get to permanently mark someone with E so it's way better than Q max for DPS)

and I don't think she has a low skill ceiling at all, teamfighting with her requires insanely good positioning and prediction ability, because you don't have a lot of time to dodge all the skillshots thrown at you from point blank, you have to anticipate them since your role is not to soak them for your team

shyvana toplane is my counterpick to stuff like illaoi and darius, you wreck them in lane the moment they make 1 positioning mistake and you transition into teamfights in a similar role to theirs

recently my item build has been triforce-steraks-GA-frozen mallet-ZZ'rot, the early triforce allows you to murder stuff really fast (with steraks too, your Q hits for almost 700) and the health and resists (+ the revive passive) allow you to transition into a powerfui teamfighter later on (once you'Ve splitpushed top and bot's outer and inner towers, for example)

Us mains will make anything work on the champion we love. Still her top lane is lacking so much that it's not even a displayed role on .gg

Not saying it cannot work. Just saying that you make it work be being very good at her.

Captain Aishi5 votes

that's how I envision every balanced champion though, having to be good at them to make them work :P

that's why I think my other main (Renekton) is balanced too, because everytime I see an inexperienced toplaner pick renekton, it usually ends in disaster

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TORZXAMk,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-09-17T22:35:46.471+0000)

that's how I envision every balanced champion though, having to be good at them to make them work :P

that's why I think my other main (Renekton) is balanced too, because everytime I see an inexperienced toplaner pick renekton, it usually ends in disaster

Perhaps. I would still like to see her top lane power receive some love. Maybe a mild early game base damage increase to her E or second hit damage on her Q early levels. That wouldn't effect her jungling too much.

Captain Aishi3 votes

Her early game damage is among the highest of any toplaner I know (rivaled only by Xin Zhao and Volibear) so increasing that might not be the best Idea. Since her problem is that she has trouble even farming against a number of ranged matchups, maybe lowering the cooldown on her E at lower ranks so she can send more of those to secure last hits would be nice, something like 10 to 8 instead of 12 to 8, decreasing by .5sec instead of 1 per point in it, so she wouldn't be gold starved as much in matchups like teemo or karma

Forhonor3212 votes

This literally points out everything I've ever wanted to say about her. The good and unfortunately the bad but never the less still saying that she is good. Thank you so much for this.

LordGeovanni2 votes

If you read riots arguements on whats hard to balance its champions that dont have 7 things on 1 ability instead oft he ones that do . its seems like the cause is that riot doesnt like numbers that dont end in 1234 6789

Umbra Ionia2 votes

I would like if Shyvana in dragon form has wings and if she lands the W she become to fly. That would be so cool. And more epic transform.

NasodianLord2 votes

So what I've gathered from comments is be more objective based rather than gank to get my team fed, ive transitioned into heavy cc junglers with the start of preseason 6 but before hand i would ignore the team and have every dragon on spawn, so i need to ignore my need to be a major team player and instead help them by getting drags and setting the enemy jungler behind

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

{quoted}

So what I've gathered from comments is be more objective based rather than gank to get my team fed, ive transitioned into heavy cc junglers with the start of preseason 6 but before hand i would ignore the team and have every dragon on spawn, so i need to ignore my need to be a major team player and instead help them by getting drags and setting the enemy jungler behind

Being a team player has multiple meanings. My jungler is Shyvana, but I also play Sej. If my team NEEDS CC badly I play Sej. Otherwise I play Shyvana. While Sej ganks well and tanks well. Shyvana clears the jungle, gets a gold advantage, puts the enemy jungler behind, gets easy dragons, split pushes lane, and provides Garen style teamfight AoE damage. So she serves a bit of a different role.

NasodianLord1 votes

so essentially i have to return to my roots of jungling

ADepressedLeona2 votes

Also she's easily kitable. She has the Nasus/Udyr syndrome in that the only way to get to her enemies is running at them, but even Nasus and Udyr are better off considering Nasus has the strongest slow in the game and Udyr has an on hit stun.

Her out helps, but as you said, any CC completely stops it

La Barbotte1 votes

i've been playing for four years, and in all that time, i've seen only one shyvana win, period, in my games, lol so unless she gets reworked to me she's forever garbage XD

NineTailedMystic1 votes

I just hate how she eats her jungle so fast she eats the enemies jungle and ends up massively ahead due to jungle experience and gold while starving the other jungler.

The Blue Rajah2 votes

It's so fun though!

Also, nunu does the same thing, but even harder.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Except Shyvana actually does things in teamfights.

FallenSeruvim2 votes

Nunu does just enough "little" in the team fight to not make him a priority, allowing him to slow and attack speed slow your adc or skirmisher, as well as HOPEFULLY building a Frozen Heart, standing in the middle of your team slowing their AS even more, and ulting creating a huge AOE slow on the team as well as a massive base dmg aoe burst, allowing his team to have much more opportunity to kill you, as well as giving one of his carries move speed and attack speed steroid... How again does Nunu contribute nothing to a team?

Hakuna Matatah1 votes

I would say she is a hyper carry tank, so that would explain why she is item reliant. In order to fix that, then there would need to be changes to her kit and scaling.

FallenSeruvim2 votes

She is labeled as a juggernaut in Riot's updated champion subclass list.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hakuna Matatah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TORZXAMk,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-09-18T05:40:22.136+0000)

I would say she is a hyper carry tank, so that would explain why she is item reliant. In order to fix that, then there would need to be changes to her kit and scaling.

A hyper carry tank is known as a Juggernaut.

Shyvana's current purpose is not a true tank however, she has zero CC and only her passive for tanking mitigation.

Her purposes are: Map pressure, split pushing, objective control, early dragons, killing carries, being a threat in teamfights and soaking damage, dueling other champions who are out of position and dealing large AoE damage. Like all fighter champions, she needs to be somewhat tanky to accomplish this. But 1-2 items plus the jungle mastery are usually enough for this.

She synchronizes with Attack Speed and on hit. Thus she builds bloodrazor, blade of the ruined king, wit's end(due to her immense magic damage) and titanic hydra. These are common items for her. Her 'tanking' items are juggernaut items, such as deadman's plat, titanic hydra, spirit visage/banshees veil, wit's end, etc. But she should never build pure tank, or she won't be a threat to anybody. As she needs damage to be a threat, and has zero lockdown.

Hakuna Matatah1 votes

whatever term you want to use lmao idc. Regardless, You missed my point. I said to fix the problem of being "item reliant" there needs to be changes to her kit or her scaling. Also, her ult is a form of CC but I don't really find it amazing CC. I personally don't play the champion. I play carry junglers usually. Shyv has insane counter jungling potential though and the speed is unreal.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hakuna Matatah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TORZXAMk,comment-id=000d00010000,timestamp=2016-09-18T05:53:55.551+0000)

whatever term you want to use lmao idc. Regardless, You missed my point. I said to fix the problem of being "item reliant" there needs to be changes to her kit or her scaling. Also, her ult is a form of CC but I don't really find it amazing CC. I personally don't play the champion. I play carry junglers usually. Shyv has insane counter jungling potential though and the speed is unreal.

Her ult is an unreliable knock back that has been buggy since release. It is a form of CC, but is not even close to what a tank needs(see Sejuani). Shyvana is a great counter jungler with good damage and great clear speeds. I am merely explaining to somebody else in this thread, that her weakness isn't her damage, it is that she is one of the most easily kited champions in League who brings no form of utility for her team.

I love Shyvana, but why play Shyvana when you can play Lee Sin, Sejuani, Trundle or other people who jungle well but have much more utility.

Hakuna Matatah2 votes

Oh sorry. Yeah, I don't make a lot of posts...so that's my fault. So basically you're pushing for a rework on her?

FallenSeruvim2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hakuna Matatah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TORZXAMk,comment-id=000d0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-18T06:00:34.540+0000)

Oh sorry. Yeah, I don't make a lot of posts...so that's my fault. So basically you're pushing for a rework on her?

Don't waste much time on this guy. Look at our conversation below that developed in to an argument because this guy literally down votes anything that isn't the EXACT thing he is typing. Even when I'm agreeing with him. He refuses to adhere to logic in any of this thread =/. LUL he even downvoted my reponse quote to you xD.

FallenSeruvim2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TORZXAMk,comment-id=000d000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-18T05:57:05.407+0000)

Her ult is an unreliable knock back that has been buggy since release. It is a form of CC, but is not even close to what a tank needs(see Sejuani). Shyvana is a great counter jungler with good damage and great clear speeds. I am merely explaining to somebody else in this thread, that her weakness isn't her damage, it is that she is one of the most easily kited champions in League who brings no form of utility for her team.

I love Shyvana, but why play Shyvana when you can play Lee Sin, Sejuani, Trundle or other people who jungle well but have much more utility.

Because other than Trundle, all of those champions are classified under different sub-classes and perform different roles. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

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