Even Challenger players admit she's a problem.
Because resourceless, mobile champions with resets and absurd base damages are balanced.
And that's not factoring in her absurdly high skill floor, skill cap and resource manage....oh.
Myrddin10 voteshttps://youtu.be/XJkm0b1wBrM?t=8m10s
that's not what he says at all
Neo Cyrus10 votesLMAO! "She'll probably get crushed in lane considering how weak her E is now" - SaintVicious
Nice try OP.
AMYS GRAVE5 votes"... she's even pretty dangerous at some high elo games and she's pretty easy to play too ..."
you need to present both fragments of the quote or else you're just as guilty of mis-quoting him as the OP is.
bonfire104 votesThe easy to play argument is kind of irrelevant at that point. If we're considering "high elo games", people are probably playing champions they're already comfortable with and fairly close to their skill caps. I would think the novelty of individual champion difficulty would stop mattering so much at Plat elo.
The people who are succeeding with katarina in masters and challenger, probably aren't just doing so because "lol she's so easy to play faceroll".
Although the point is certainly valid at lower elo.
AMYS GRAVE6 votesfair point, but even still the fact that she can remain dangerous at high elo means that her counterplay is challenging enough to be worked around and the view that a little hard cc makes her totally useless is overly simplistic.
bonfire103 votesAgreed, which is the "she's even pretty dangerous at some high elo games" aspect. She'll still stomp a team that isn't equipped to handle her if someone last picks her in a favorable situation. But with the current meta, that situation is rarer than ever.
aaronautumn6 votesi read that as saintdelicious.
Edge of Daybreak6 votesYeah she is a problem sometimes. Why do you equate sometimes to all the time?
DropFill6 votesInsane base damages? Sorry, only her ult. That has a 2.5s channel
YumaS2Astral9 votesHer abilities alone have poor base damage but due to their cast animation, you can usually cast all them at same time, and they end up dealing insane amounts of damage even without a lot of AP.
bonfire102 votesIf by "insane amounts of damage" you mean less damage than every other assassin in the game. It doesn't matter if her burst happens .5 seconds faster than talon's or leblanc's or zed's or fizz's if the burst isn't enough to kill, and it isn't unless fed because her base damages and ratios are objectively sub par.
Earl Eulrich5 votesBecause her dmg is still way too frontloaded...there´s no stopping a good kata that only requires 0,7sec to get her first kill and then snowballs through the fight, CC doesn´t affect her all that much at all unfortunatelly (at least if she doesn´t suck).
bonfire102 votesWhy would kat be close enough to a squishy target to kill them in 0.7 seconds? That's on your team if their positioning is shit. She's an assassin, if a leblanc jumped out and did the same thing would it still not be the squishy's fault for being caught out of position?
Earl Eulrich1 votesbecause they had vision control? because her team got a good engage? because the frontline did die to fast and she got the reset to jump into the backline? This game is not played 1v5 (at least most of the times).
bonfire103 votesIf any of those conditions are true, your team already lost the fight. If your frontline is taken out in a 4v5 with no ap carry, kat isn't the issue, it's the fact that your team is losing without kat even engaging; then when she does engage you're just looking for a scapegoat to call op and blame your loss on because you won't admit it was you and your team's fault.
The scenario wouldn't play out any differently if it was any other ap carry or assassin. They might not have resets, but a lost fight is a lost fight. Katarina above all other assassins might snowball a lost fight into a bigger loss, but she's also equally worse when not given the opportunity to do that.
She either falls flat on her face or cleans up, but people only like to remember the times when she cleans up because otherwise they'd have to admit they played poorly.
Earl Eulrich1 votesthe main difference is...you always have to focus all your efforts into shutting down kata first in every fight, no matter if there is a vayne on the rampage or a rumble burning right through you. you can´t really play around her in any way, either you catch and kill her or she´ll get the fight going in her favour eventually. a good kata falls flat off her face only if her whole team gets outperformed.
bonfire103 votesa good kata falls flat off her face only if her whole team gets outperformed.
I agree, but my point is most people don't want to admit that they need to outperform her whole team. They do somewhat well against them and as kat comes in to cleanup they scream op because in their minds the fight was going well and was roughly even. When in reality, a huge powersource was contributing maybe 5% of her damage potential and saving the rest for the optimal time. If the enemy team isn't outperforming kat's team entirely in a 4v5, where katarina can contribute no more than ranged Q damage on the front line, they've already lost the fight, and they would have lost even more so if the team had a conventional ap carry who could provide even more safe damage than katarina.
If that vayne or rumble are fed, your mid lane should be just as equally ahead considering they laned against a katarina. Katarina has a huge reliance on her teammates to be ahead because she requires them to whittle down the enemies without her help. If they're already ahead, yes it's an issue because she can be a threat even when shutdown. But if her team isn't significantly ahead already and can't stand on their own, she won't be as effective, even if she herself is ahead.
That's why I generally try to give away as many kills as possible on katarina. I don't need kills, my team does. That way the power is distributed and harder to shutdown, which is a reasonable strategy for any assassin, not just katarina.
Kazaashi1 votesI agree, but my point is most people don't want to admit that they need to outperform her whole team. They do somewhat well against them and as kat comes in to cleanup they scream op because in their minds the fight was going well and was roughly even. When in reality, a huge powersource was contributing maybe 5% of her damage potential and saving the rest for the optimal time. If the enemy team isn't outperforming kat's team entirely in a 4v5, where katarina can contribute no more than ranged Q damage on the front line, they've already lost the fight, and they would have lost even more so if the team had a conventional ap carry who could provide even more safe damage than katarina.
If that vayne or rumble are fed, your mid lane should be just as equally ahead considering they laned against a katarina. Katarina has a huge reliance on her teammates to be ahead because she requires them to whittle down the enemies without her help. If they're already ahead, yes it's an issue because she can be a threat even when shutdown. But if her team isn't significantly ahead already and can't stand on their own, she won't be as effective, even if she herself is ahead.
That's why I generally try to give away as many kills as possible on katarina. I don't need kills, my team does. That way the power is distributed and harder to shutdown, which is a reasonable strategy for any assassin, not just katarina.
Nice point. Everyone looks at the thing that killed them, not the 10 decisions they made that led them to getting killed.
bonfire102 votesThanks, I agree that the approach for shutting down katarina in teamfights might be counter-intuitive. I just feel like most people don't take the time to even try to learn what they did wrong and just blame the last thing that happened as the only reason they lost.
Rinky Dinky2 votesLeblanc does not assassinate entire teams
bonfire102 votesNeither does katarina when the enemy team doesn't give her the opportunity. The difference is when kat is denied she gets nothing or dies trying. When leblanc gets denied she still has great burst and escape potential.
Rinky Dinky1 votesOh, I also feel the need to mention how idiotic your claim that she has no escape truly was. Even if she doesn't get the reset, if she zhonya's, provided she has at least 10% cdr, she will be able to shunpo again to safety
bonfire102 votesKarthus just needs to build like 30% cdr and he can ult every 10 seconds.
That's the equivalent of the exaggeration you are making and the math to prove it is in my response to that original statement.
Knight SoIaire 2 votessorry but i would like to highlight something
why isnt that the best argument to everything
lb destroys everything she finds ... why is she close enough for her to hit you
jinx hit you with her global ult .. why was you close enough for her to hit you
someone flashes dashes and maulss you ... why didnt you just randomly teleport to your fountain to get out of his range ?
the game goes on and katarina will have opportunities, you cant deny her gameplay
i dont realy try to either defend or hate her here but as a poster you should make arguments that make sence
bonfire102 votesWell at high level play that literally is the solution.
lb destroys everything she finds ... why is she close enough for her to hit you
this is true, you should not be in a place where leblanc could be close enough to you to jump on you. You either safely get vision or back off.
jinx hit you with her global ult .. why was you close enough for her to hit you
This is a bit of a different issue because skillshots are dodgeable. Unless you had no vision of it coming or had your movement impaired, it shouldn't hit either. Skillshots are less a matter of closeness and more a matter of cc, missile speed, and predictability.
someone flashes dashes and mauls you ... why didn't you just randomly teleport to your fountain to get out of his range ?
The solution would be to not be in range of their flash dash. That might seem unreasonable, but it's honestly what you have to do. If I'm playing with a lower level friend and he's playing a squishy character and steps close enough for a talon to Flash + E him, I yell at him to move back because he's way overextended.
I feel like there's almost an arrogance of carries to think they should be safe wherever they go as long as they aren't within attack range of an assassin. The point of being a carry is you need constant protection and peel, and even that might not be enough if you don't react defensively fast enough.
Adcs aren't likely to kill you within a second of entering their space; assassins are. It's what they're designed to do. But staying out of that space means that champion is contributing no damage. This is why that line of thinking is effective against assassins. They are the ones that need to make the first move in order to be useful. They have to be proactive in dealing damage where you can control them reactively by not giving them that opportunity.
I would summarize my point as this:
Killing the assassin is no where near as important as not letting the assassin kill you. Removing the assassin from the game doesn't help your team as much as him removing you from the game helps his team. So just focus on not dieing and you'll shutdown the assassin more consistently than you would if you were actively trying to kill him.
BeatzBoyFTW5 votesAnd dumb people around the world be like "Just CC her"
And that doesn't explain much of how she still has a ridiculously high winrate......
Sinlaire2 votes70% of the league community comprises gold ELO and below.
Would you like to take a guess at which ELO ranges Katarina is likely to carry the hardest?
would you also like to take a guess at which ELO ranks might have a greater impact on the average winrate of a champ across the board?
if 50% of all games are played by players most likely to get face rolled by her (exaggerating for a point) then maybe the numbers arent as relevant as you might hope.
bonfire103 votesThis^ look at her winrate in diamond + compared to other midlaners. Only baddies have a problem with her, and the only reason she's even somewhat of a threat at high elo is because of coordination issues. Which sucks when a champion is being nerfed with the thought of capping their damage vs an unorganized team instead of balancing them around optimal play.
Earl Eulrich2 voteshttp://champion.gg/champion/Katarina
strangly enough she´s at ~53%winrate in plat+ aswell. It´s the quality of the Kata-player that decides the game. Good Katas are almost impossible to shut down, no matter the elo.
Kazaashi2 votesAnd dumb people around the world be like "Just CC her"
And that doesn't explain much of how she still has a ridiculously high winrate......
I attribute that to people not understanding how to play against her, not the champ itself. She has sooooo many counters.
Knight SoIaire 1 votescounters are a bad argument
the games of league are meant to be won by skill you can represent in game not in champion select
Kazaashi2 votes[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TO1Zchxw,comment-id=000800010000,timestamp=2015-06-10T14:29:27.005+0000)
counters are a bad argument
the games of league are meant to be won by skill you can represent in game not in champion select
Part of the skill of the game is countering your opponents. Just because your favorite champion has a bad matchup with Kat, doesn't mean she's OP.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesim just saying that counterpicking is a bad argument because games are meant to be won by players not champions
Kazaashi2 votes[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TO1Zchxw,comment-id=00080001000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-10T16:17:55.160+0000)
im just saying that counterpicking is a bad argument because games are meant to be won by players not champions
You can say it all you want, but ignoring the facts just makes it an invalid argument.
Counter picking a champion doesn't guarantee a win. You still have to understand the match up and how to play against her. By counter picking her, though, you set yourself up with a higher chance of winning against her because you will have the necessary tools to do it. It is still up to you to use the tools correctly.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesi think that im getting misunderstood at every step
what you described is how counterpicking works
but what is the problem that sometimes this applies to a further extent than it should
then its a ballance problem
you said that people dont know how to play vs kata ... and then called out that she has many counters
not some particular weaknes ... strategy ... or whatever, you called counterpicking
if all that you can do to kata is counterpicking otherwise you face sewere consequences and pray for luck, then its a ballance problem of katarina not having her gameplay adjusted propertly
if champion is owerly reliant on matchup to either win as said champion or to win againts said champion then it is a ballance problem
Kazaashi2 votes[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TO1Zchxw,comment-id=0008000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-10T21:24:45.189+0000)
i think that im getting misunderstood at every step
what you described is how counterpicking works
but what is the problem that sometimes this applies to a further extent than it should
then its a ballance problem
you said that people dont know how to play vs kata ... and then called out that she has many counters
not some particular weaknes ... strategy ... or whatever, you called counterpicking
if all that you can do to kata is counterpicking otherwise you face sewere consequences and pray for luck, then its a ballance problem of katarina not having her gameplay adjusted propertly
if champion is owerly reliant on matchup to either win as said champion or to win againts said champion then it is a ballance problem
For her weakness and strategy against her, I direct you to Bonfire10's posts. Those pretty much sum it up.
bonfire101 votes:D
FooDang4 votesQQ kat thread...
he said she can be a problem Sometimes
It depends on the comp she is going against. A last pick Kat will probably do better than a first pick Kat.
If I see Katarina picked I will instalock 
because....you know...cow nips OP...
Demonsolder211 votesHeh cow nips xD HAHAHAHAHA
Vincent Lucius1 votesWhat can we say? She can't milk those tits.
Der Lindwurm4 votesabsurd base damages
I LOL'd. Her Q/W/E base damages have already been nerfed into the ground. There's seriously nowhere else to go.
Rinky Dinky2 votes"Nah just cc her duh"
Someone list the flaws in that being the sole argument for me pls.
Specifcally considering the kind of champion kat is (Assassinates entire teams in under 3 seconds)
bonfire105 votesThe flaw is that's what bronze players say the solution is because bronze kats just jump in regardless of timing and start ulting. So cc works for them.
The real answer is positioning. Katarina should be able to 1 shot your carries late game. She's an assassin after all. The issue is she has no escape like all other assassins: talon, zed, leblanc, fizz, even akali has unreliable invisibility and multiple jumps. So katarina can't ever half commit like other assassins, she can only enter the fight if she's guaranteed a kill. If you don't give her that opening to guarantee a kill, the fight is essentially a 4v5.
Your carries should also have shields, heals, banshees, zhonyas, flash, Guardian Angels, and other defensive options against katarina to prevent her dive from resulting in a kill and a reset. And this pretty much kills her because she's now behind enemy lines, didn't get the reset, likely had to flash to even get in range of your carries (and if she didn't that's even worse positioning on their part considering how close they'd have to be), and she's now being locked down with cc with no escapes left. And if you're carry can't react within 0.7 seconds, they probably shouldn't be playing league, because that's a pretty long window for reaction time.
Rinky Dinky6 votesSorry but no.
Katarina doesn't have an escape? Sorry.... what?
That obvious blunder aside, you also imply katarina only assassinates one target than leaves.
Again.... What?
There are really just too many stupid things for me to nitpick, but your argument really is awful, and honestly just misleading.
You katarina humpers act like Katarina doesn't have a team that is backing her up. Sure, if she just jumps in, cc her, no problem. But thats not how this game works. If she goes in, she's following up on an intiation.
Now, tell me, do you know what happens when an amumu, sejuani, or malphite land four, three, even two man ult with a katarina on their side?
Pentakill.
Provided the rest of their team follows up of course. Because once you lose those two teamates, do you know what happens? Katarina's team chases you down, and katarina cleans you up.
Oh and also, 0.7 seconds? If your a carry with less than 2 defensive items, Katarina doesn't even give you that buddy, if you knew what you were talking about, you would know that.
Edit: Oh, I also feel the need to mention how idiotic your claim that she has no escape truly was. Even if she doesn't get the reset, if she zhonya's, provided she has at least 10% cdr, she will be able to shunpo again to safety.
Thats the entire problem with katarina. She is a champion designed to get resets, yet she has some of the lowest cooldowns in the game? What in the actual fuck.
No really, that is totally contradicting. She doesn't even need her resets to function, and that is why she is always going to be a balance problem.
She is by design, broken. She is an assassin who is ment to kill not one target, not two, but five. In under 5 seconds.
All she needs is a tank. Just one smart person on her team. Just. One. and she gets a pentakill.
bonfire104 votesKatarina doesn't have an escape? Sorry.... what? That obvious blunder aside, you also imply katarina only assassinates one target than leaves. Again.... What?
"katarina can't ever half commit like other assassins, she can only enter the fight if she's guaranteed a kill."
I literally said she has no escape provided a kill doesn't happen. This isn't saying a kill isn't likely to happen, it's saying that she is unable to commit before a guaranteed kill because, unlike most other assassins, she can't disengage from within the middle of a team unless she first gets a kill.
You katarina humpers act like Katarina doesn't have a team that is backing her up. Sure, if she just jumps in, cc her, no problem. But thats not how this game works. If she goes in, she's following up on an intiation. Now, tell me, do you know what happens when an amumu, sejuani, or malphite land four, three, even two man ult with a katarina on their side? Pentakill.
How is the any different from any other aoe ap carry? "If amumu,, sejuani, or malphite land their ults" that's called winning a team fight, and it's gonna happen regardless of the ap carry, that's a shitty enemy team, not an overpowered champion. The difference might be the kills being more spread out as opposed to a penta kill, but that's hardly relevant apart from a dick measuring contest. It's honestly better to have the kills spread out so the there's a distribution of power that's harder to shut down, as opposed to putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak. Those 5 kills are gonna happen in the scenario you mentioned, the only reason you'd complain is because pentakills are flashy and you can claim a single champion as your scapegoat while you're forced to admit you played poorly when the kills are more evenly distributed.
Oh and also, 0.7 seconds? If your a carry with less than 2 defensive items, Katarina doesn't even give you that buddy, if you knew what you were talking about, you would know that.
I've played over 2000 games on katarina over the past 5 and a half years and had an 82% win rate with her last season in diamond.
You're silver 2 with less than 500 wins in total. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you're the one starting with the aggression and insults. I can reasonably state I believe I'm more experienced and knowledgeable on the subject than you are.
No unfed katarina will kill your carry fast enough for them to not be able to react, regardless of the specific time which obviously varies significantly game to game, player to player, and champion to champion.
Even if she doesn't get the reset, if she zhonya's, provided she has at least 10% cdr, she will be able to shunpo again to safety.
lol what?
Katarina doesn't build any cdr items. That's a fact and if she did she'd be sacrificing much needed damage. No high level build is going to contain any cdr items.
She might gets a small %cdr from masteries, but there's no scenario where she should be taking cdr runes over the aternatives.
Katarina doesn't max shunpo first or even second, so even if the rest of these fallacious conditions were true, they would only hold true at level 18
But lets assume all that is false anyway and you have shunpo maxed and 10% cdr somehow.
Shunpo max cd is 6 seconds, so that means it takes 5.4 seconds to come off cd after use. Zhonyas lasts 2 seconds. that's a 3.4 second window to cc and kill katarina. If you're team can't kill a glass cannon assassin in that time, it's your own fault. Especially when her entire kit is extremely predictable. She throws Q and jumps in, you can see the preparation during her Q animation time, so you have plenty of time to prepare for the engage.
Your game knowledge on at least this subject seems very poor and you sound bigoted towards a champion you find frustrating because you refuse to acknowledge their weaknesses and change your own playstyle to exploit them.
EDIT:
She is by design, broken. She is an assassin who is ment to kill not one target, not two, but five. In under 5 seconds.
I don't see a probably with this when the more common path is she gets no kills and is shut down. She doesn't act like most assassins where they can usually guarantee a kill and might die with it or get a few more if they're lucky.
She can't guarantee that first kill because she has major base damage and scaling caps. But if she does get that first kill, her damage potential unlocks and she exceeds all other assassins. The point is, that first kill is harder to get and more dangerous to try to get than on any other assassin. This is where she's balanced, and this is why she's seen less in high level play where players don't make nearly as many mistakes and know how to position properly.
All Skillzz2 votesfirst time i played kat, i was trolling to get into bronze. i built a thornmail sunfire cape and magic pen boots, i still killed the enemy caitlyn and 1 vs 1 a nasus who was trying to take our inhibitor, her base damage is pretty retarded i had no ap and full armor items and killed an adc 1 vs 1 and a nasus with 400+ stacks lol.
NemeBro3 votes[{quoted}](name=All Skillzz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TO1Zchxw,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-06-10T04:15:10.076+0000)
first time i played kat, i was trolling to get into bronze. i built a thornmail sunfire cape and magic pen boots, i still killed the enemy caitlyn and 1 vs 1 a nasus who was trying to take our inhibitor, her base damage is pretty retarded i had no ap and full armor items and killed an adc 1 vs 1 and a nasus with 400+ stacks lol.
I'm moderately certain you're lying to be honest. I've played Nasus with a Kat on the enemy team and proceeded to facetank her ult and kill her.
Silent Pace1 votes[deleted]
OverpoweredSoap11 votes[{quoted}](name=Silent Pace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TO1Zchxw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-06-09T23:36:11.038+0000)
aren't they nerfing her Shunpo ratio/damage?
But who ever uses shunpo for damage?
