Watched a friend play vs a Zed

Chris Chiaki·Mar 9, 2015·77 votes·5,469 views

He's low Silver and complains about Zed/LB/Ahri constantly.

He was playing .

Didn't take

Was building a instead of a .

Both teams fought at dragon, trading 1v1 but he got chunked out to like 40% while his lane opponent was almost unscathed. He returns to return to lane and gets dove by the Zed. The Zed plays the dive fucking horribly, wasting his shadow and landing his E+Q but forgetting his Cuitlass.

But you know what? Brand played it worse because he had no armor (30ish), missed his Stun and no Exhaust and decided to stay when he was low.

It's why I can't take Zed QQers seriously. Because it's people like this who choose not to take a great SS to counter him, refuse to build resistances, fuck up in the actual game and just blame the champ.

108 Comments

Sona PingMar 9, 201561 votes

Because everyone is low silver on OCE and is your friend, right?

Very Hard EngageMar 9, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWE7bOpB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-09T12:14:56.159+0000)

Because everyone is low silver on OCE and is your friend, right?

this ^

DivewingMar 9, 201522 votes

I agree with this, my only gripe with zed is his lane phase is perhaps safer than it needs to be, give him a legitimate cost on his q early that returns to normal late and we are groovy

JefftiffyMar 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I agree with this, my only gripe with zed is his lane phase is perhaps safer than it needs to be, give him a legitimate cost on his q early that returns to normal late and we are groovy

The thing is no energy champ has real costs if they use their kit correctly. Zed is no different. When I have forced Zed to be defensive or even baited out his abilities he runs out of energy nonstop.

DarthSpectrumMar 9, 201514 votes

I understand why people think OP exaggerated; however, I can attest that this scenario does happen, and quite frequently too.

As a somewhat-frequent Zed player myself, most of my kills come not from my own ability, but instead from my opponents screwing up. It is difficult to spot one's own mistakes while playing the game, so OP's friend probably was not even aware of how much he misplayed.

When laning against Zed, get a Zhonyas early, don't push to his wave, and don't waste mana.

A Zhonyas can negate his entire combo, allowing you to turn the fight. Staying within tower range means that he has to have ult in order to kill you, and conserving mana will allow you fight back when he all-ins you.

AbiwonKenabiMar 9, 20153 votes

Good post. There is no reason not to get Zhonya's early against a Zed. Its already a coveted item for any AP user. Normally champions wouldn't want to build it first because the armor stat isn't helpful in lane phase against an AP opponent, but Zed is AD, so its ideal.

Even if the player wants to rush some mana sustain first(like a Morellonomicon), I still think its a good idea to at least get Seeker's and finish Zhonya's second ASAP.

Vegas DadMar 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Good post. There is no reason not to get Zhonya's early against a Zed. Its already a coveted item for any AP user. Normally champions wouldn't want to build it first because the armor stat isn't helpful in lane phase against an AP opponent, but Zed is AD, so its ideal.

Even if the player wants to rush some mana sustain first(like a Morellonomicon), I still think its a good idea to at least get Seeker's and finish Zhonya's second ASAP.

Ya my problem with this line of thinking is that you always put the burden on everyone else....why isnt the zed having to rush a sub optimal defensive item as well? I mean shouldnt zed have to rush a Qss because of brands stun? Oh wait no he doesnt he just derps out building as much dmg as possible because in the end muh kit is OP so i get EZ mode and everyone gets to argue about how how the entire playerbase should have to build and play around me because i am broken.

Cool he is labeled an "assasin" you know what no champs are labelled "victims" this isnt hunter vs hunted so stop pretending the title assasins means you are automatically top of the food chain.

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 20154 votes

Most mages, unfortunately, have to use mana to waveclear safely against a Zed, and rushing Seeker's, while a great defensive strategy, really hinders your ability to push back your lane, something Zed can do almost for free.

Kuroi86Mar 9, 20151 votes

Not an ideal item, but item 3070 720 gold, fairly easy to get and quickly makes mana problems a thing of the past. Only issue is not an ideal item on all mages. It does however help with the wave clear issue, then getting a seekers helps with defense, and once Luden's Echo comes out, wave clear issues really will be a lot less of an issue.

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 20152 votes

Wait, so am I supposed to get item 3070 or item 3191 against Zed? After all, that together is 1920 gold... by that point Zed already has item 3144 item 1001

Kuroi86Mar 9, 20151 votes

You don't have to. But it is an option. If you don't feel you can keep Zed harassed out of going in and trying to trade or poke you down while you cs, then it's definitely an decent option.

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 20152 votes

Well my point was that most mages (other than those who have some mana regain in their kit -- Malzahar Lissandra Xerath TwistedFate ) would ordinarily go for a mana or mana-regen item first, because since the nerfs, those items are necessary in laning phase. Often a item 3114 or item 3070 .

Against a Zed, it's risky if you don't buy a item 3191 and rush it into a item 3157 .

TF can rush Zhonya's, but most mages cannot, or they won't be able to compete with Zed's waveclear. And either way, while the mage is spending 2000g on these necessary defensive/mana items, Zed is free to rush his BOTRK and his Brutalizer.

Kuroi86Mar 10, 20153 votes

It pushes home a point that many people seem to not realize. Mages are meh in laning phase. Assassins are meh in lane until they get their ults, at which point they gain significant dueling potential which mages simply aren't designed to be able to counter.

Short of playing safe, harassing from a distance and csing near perfectly, a mage is simply going to struggle against an assassin in lane by sheer virtue of how their kits work. Shy of gutting all assassins or overbuffing mages to the point of being godly, there's not much you can really do against this.

High5Mar 10, 20151 votes

Well, that's assuming that you don't have a mobile mage ... Ahri Fizz Leblanc

Kuroi86Mar 10, 20152 votes

LB and Fizz could be considered mages due to their AoE, but truthfully they fulfill the assassin archetype much better.

Ahri is good, she's a lot safer against assassins due to her mobility, though it's really a skill match up as to whether she would simply survive lane or get kills on any assassin opponent.

GnomeDigestMar 9, 201514 votes

The fact that Zed forces opponents to itemize in very specific fashion (zhonyas) and practically forces you to take exhaust just to survive laning vs him speaks volumes. Its hard to think of any other champion that mandates such choices vs them. And thats just to survive the lane lol, not even win it.

These are not arguments to make if you want to claim that Zed is balanced. You are actually making the case he is Op.

Battlecast SonaMar 9, 20157 votes

Characters I take exh against mid (as squishy immobile casters like Xerath):

Annie, Veigar (rip though), Yasuo, Zed, Diana, Ahri, Kennen... And that's just off the top of my head. Exhaust is a great summoner spell when you're playing against an assassin or burst mage, as it prevents them from being able to safely all-in you early on in the game. It's not that Zed is so overpowered that you HAVE to take exhaust, it's that squishy immobile casters HAVE to take a defensive summoner spell to fight against assassins and burst mages in mid at the moment.

Kuroi86Mar 9, 20155 votes

Zhonya's being a choice item against him doesn't mean it's a requirement. A good mid can focus more on csing and harass and prevent Zed from ever getting into a good spot to ult in the first place. Taking Exhaust over Ignite says you're not worried about kills, but focused on getting your gold and pushing for the mid game where mages excel at team fights. It's also worth pointing out, this game is meant to be played strategically, meaning you should adjust your play style and build for EVERY opponent. The fact that Zed forces people to play in a specific fashion, the fact that they can't simply rush Morello then deathcap then stacking AP like they would against countless other match ups speaks to the level of strategy that Zed forces people to use. If more champs could force you to actually think on the fly, adjust your strategy and plan out your build instead of rushing the same build every match, then this game would be so much better.

AblogqwerMar 9, 201513 votes

The problem people have with zed isn't his OH HE JUMPED ON ME AND KILLED ME WHILE HE WAS 27/0.

It's because he has: Cheap escapes Good waveclear Fast regen/infinite energy (so ability use is continual) Cheap harrass Easy dives Easy escapes AND the ability to blow up a single squishy target

The combination results in a champion that can push, waveclear, and poke all at the same time despite being melee, can't be ganked by the jungler to punish for pushing, and once he gets you low enough can just turret dive you with his ult... and then walk away from it.

It's the same reason people complain about lee-it's not because of any single item in his kit, it's the overloading combination that results in a champion that's overpowered and is painfully obvious.

Drunk RummateMar 9, 201511 votes

just because some silver friend of yours plays like an idiot versus zed does not mean the champion is "fine"

what about all the people who DO take exhaust/barrier versus zed and lose lane anyways? what about all the people who DO build seekers versus zed and lose lane anyways?

I'm sure you've heard it a million times, which is why you're making this thread, but his 1300 range manaless poke is pretty fucking infuriating to deal with no matter who you are.

insaiyanbaccaMar 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I'm sure you've heard it a million times, which is why you're making this thread, but his 1300 range manaless poke is pretty fucking infuriating to deal with no matter who you are.

malz deals with it just fine, and i have yet to see someone take exhaust against zed and lose lane

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 20155 votes

Malz is one of his hardest counters. That's like saying "well Galio deals with Leblanc just fine."

insaiyanbaccaMar 9, 20153 votes

well you said is infuriating no matter who you are i stated someone who its not infuriating to

SaiannaMar 9, 20159 votes

It's sad that everyone has to build to survive vs Zed, while Zed can proceed with his casual face melting build.

Not exactly fair.

And then you have for example Rammus. Full armor & hp build lost vs Zed in melee fight (no spells used, just punch...punch...punch). That makes me wonder how braindead Riot balancing team is.

insaiyanbaccaMar 9, 20154 votes

{quoted}

And then you have for example Rammus. Full armor & hp build lost vs Zed in melee fight (no spells used, just punch...punch...punch).

that your problem here rammus doesnt use autoattacks to do a lot of his damage its mainly in his oponents attacking him when he has his thornmail on and in his ult so of course rammus is gonna lose an autoattack fight even with the armor to ad passive

SaiannaMar 9, 20155 votes

Oh well.. I might have wrote it wrong...

Rammus did had Thronmail. But Zed didn't even lose health when hitting.

Sorry mate, but as an "assassin" there's no friggin way that tank would become "free kill" In old seasons if assassin was dumb enough to get into tanks range, he was heavily punished. Right now Tanks are just as squishy as back line they try to protect.

That is NOT OK. (and btw, we are talking about zed vs tank, but all assassins rotfl-stomp tanks now)

RikariMar 9, 20158 votes

but... exhaust doesn't counter zed. Zhonyas takes forever,and by the time a silver gets it its almost pointless. seems like when we play against zed the option is more of surviving him instead of killing him LOL although i must admit this guy sounds pretty bad lol

JJ H0GMar 9, 201522 votes

lolwut. As long as you exhaust before the ult pops, zed's damage gets gimped hard.

FeathermaneMar 9, 201550 votes

What is the cooldown on Exhaust? What is the cooldown on Zed's ult?

This is akin to taking Cleanse to counter Taric.

ImHerVoiceMar 9, 20154 votes

nothing wrong with cleanse kiddo. People used to take cleanse to counter hard CC supports/ganks all the time. Heal is just broken as shit and has been since it gives an MS buff

DrCyanideMar 9, 201511 votes

And yet, Veigar "compensation" happened.

AbiwonKenabiMar 9, 201513 votes

With one point in his ult, Death Mark is 120 second cooldown. Exhaust's cooldown is 210 seconds. So you can use Exhaust on Zed once every other ult up-time. And while this seems bad that you'll only be able to use it half the time on him, its better than nothing. A good Zed will try and kill his low-mobility opponent shortly after he hits 6, and if you have exhaust, that's going to pretty much shut down his attempt. Its not like any other option would be better, ignite doesn't help you defensively, especially this early in the game when no one has much life steal. Heal is going to be cut by Zed's exhaust(EDIT: sorry, meant Zed's Ignite). Exhaust is a good option, especially considering you probably won't have much besides Doran's Ring and maybe a Seeker's arm guard if you are farming well.

tl;dr: Exhaust helps against the early aggression Zed is capable of once he has his ult. If you are playing a squishy, immobile mage and you aren't confident, Exhaust can help you out. Its better than the alternatives Ignite and Heal. It cuts Zed's ult damage tremendously.

youngjake93Mar 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

With one point in his ult, Death Mark is 120 second cooldown. Exhaust's cooldown is 210 seconds. So you can use Exhaust on Zed once every other ult up-time. And while this seems bad that you'll only be able to use it half the time on him, its better than nothing. A good Zed will try and kill his low-mobility opponent shortly after he hits 6, and if you have exhaust, that's going to pretty much shut down his attempt. Its not like any other option would be better, ignite doesn't help you defensively, especially this early in the game when no one has much life steal. Heal is going to be cut by Zed's exhaust. Exhaust is a good option, especially considering you probably won't have much besides Doran's Ring and maybe a Seeker's arm guard if you are farming well.

tl;dr: Exhaust helps against the early aggression Zed is capable of once he has his ult. If you are playing a squishy, immobile mage and you aren't confident, Exhaust can help you out. Its better than the alternatives Ignite and Heal. It cuts Zed's ult damage tremendously.

Not to mention they probably won't use the ult on cooldown which gives your exhaust a little more time.

Meep ManMar 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What is the cooldown on Exhaust? What is the cooldown on Zed's ult?

This is akin to taking Cleanse to counter Taric.

True, but if you have Exhaust up to counter the first Zed ultimate, you can punish him hard and, if you can get the kill, you can snowball off of it and Zed becomes much less powerful. Its about taking full advantage of the advantage gained from when you do successfully pull it off and possibly kill Zed. It also gives you time to build an item that hard counter him such as Zhonyas or QSS if you are AD since it can reduce some damage taken from his passive and all of his ultimate.

Baron of BreadMar 9, 20153 votes

I don't see how that exhaust is going to kill Zed if he still has a shadow up to escape. I think you are basically only going to get that if Zed jumped on you when your jungler was sitting in the brush right there with some nice hard cc.

RikariMar 9, 20156 votes

then it counters his ultimate. not like he isnt going to outrange/outpoke/outsustain/outtrade/outrun you to the point where the situation is favorable for him.

DestructoDaveMar 9, 20157 votes

People dont understand that rushing seeker's gimps the vast majority of AP mids in the game, and while it may help you survive the poke, you are probably going to lose the lane because Zed will just out-sustain your mana pool. The only way seeker's really helps is if your jungler watches enough LCS to give you the 2nd blue like the pro's, so you dont need an early morello or athene's. But, you dont generally get a blue in solo Q, and then you are at an extreme disadvantage vs zed with maybe a doran's ring for mana sustain.

I think more people watch LCS than play the game, and just talk out of their ass about balance issues. Hell, even in LCS Zed has like a 80% win-rate, and they get the 2nd blues every single time to pretty much make rushing armguard the smartest thing to do. Then, your average silver player goes into ranked, rushes armguard, has zero mana regen, gets bullied and pushed in by zed and doesnt have the ability to clear the waves, eats more poke, doesnt have the mana to fight back, and loses lane just as horribly, but slower than rushing seekers.

The bottom line is you shouldnt have to rush a seekers and completely gimp your entire early game just because its Zed, while Zed NEVER has to rush, say a hexdrinker, and generally does his same build regardless of what he is facing or doing. It might be different if seekers countered zed, but it doesn't.

AbiwonKenabiMar 10, 20151 votes

So rush a Haunting Guise instead? I'm guessing the Brand in OP already had a mana item and still wasn't building Seeker's. There's having to get a mana regen item early, and then there's already having it and still not buying a great counter to Zed.

And yes, I said counter, because while Seeker's only gives you the armor, Zhonya's is the real prize. Zhonya's active can completely negate the damage from Zed's ult with good timing. Add to that the armor and AP you get, and its a really nice item for any mage to have.

DestructoDaveMar 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So rush a Haunting Guise instead? I'm guessing the Brand in OP already had a mana item and still wasn't building Seeker's. There's having to get a mana regen item early, and then there's already having it and still not buying a great counter to Zed.

And yes, I said counter, because while Seeker's only gives you the armor, Zhonya's is the real prize. Zhonya's active can completely negate the damage from Zed's ult with good timing. Add to that the armor and AP you get, and its a really nice item for any mage to have.

Hell Death cap is a nice item to have; void staff is a nice item to have, I can go on and on. That doesn't mean rushing it is a helpful thing to do. And zhonya's doenst keep zed from killing you. It just keeps death mark from gibbing you. I dunno why people think zed can't kill people 1on1 without death mark; once he gets a few items he can kill them without it.

I dont agree with rushing a haunting guise, but thats besides the point. My point is rushing a seekers puts you at a disadvantage in lane, unless you are getting blue buffs ala LCS, and we all know you aren't getting any early blue buffs in ranked.

And it doesnt counter zed. Why the hell do you people keep thinking seeker's counters zed? It just makes him deal a little less damage to you; that pissy amount of armor doesn't counter anything; it just lets you not get poked out and all-in'd as fast. Every zed gets an early brutalizer anyways. Seekers is still a damned if you do, damned if you dont item. You dont counter anything he does with a seekers. You slightly mitigate it, at the cost of being able to clear waves/fight back, which has its own set of problems.

No one is arguing that zhonyas isnt a required item vs zed, or a great item for any mage. Having to rush it when facing a basically resourceless champion like zed, on what are typically mana-gated champs, basically sucks. Again, this is mitigated by getting blue buffs, but you never get blue buffs in solo Q. You have all these selfish trick2g "this is my jungle" wannabe's running around hogging up all the buffs for 35 minutes, and you are put at a disadvantage.

AbiwonKenabiMar 11, 20151 votes

I direct you to a comment I made earlier elsewhere on this thread:

{quoted}

Good post. There is no reason not to get Zhonya's early against a Zed. Its already a coveted item for any AP user. Normally champions wouldn't want to build it first because the armor stat isn't helpful in lane phase against an AP opponent, but Zed is AD, so its ideal.

Even if the player wants to rush some mana sustain first(like a Morellonomicon), I still think its a good idea to at least get Seeker's and finish Zhonya's second ASAP.

Some champions will want to get a mana item first. I'll admit that. But why not get Zhonya's second? A Deathcap is an even more valuable purchase when you already have a few AP items, so its ok not to get it second. Void Staff in general is not needed early (sometimes on certain champs you might want to pick it up early, but just in general) and can be bought later, particularly against a Zed, which as many in this thread are saying, doesn't buy a great deal of MR usually.

My main point is (and I think what OP's main point is too) that if you are having trouble vs. a Zed, or think you will have trouble, there are ways to strategize against him. Seeker's and Zhonya's are one of those ways. If I were Brand and I was doing poorly against that Zed, I'd probably want a Seeker's early just so I hopefully wouldn't feed Zed to beyond the point of my team being able to pick up my slack. Its a better strategy than doing nothing and going back to "business as usual" build. More AP is not going to stop me(in any way even slow me) from handing Zed kills. If that Brand is not confident and getting frustrated, he should get a Seeker's or at least the Needlessly Large Rod that will eventually become Zhonya's.

426287Mar 9, 20156 votes

Play malzahar boyz. Everytime i see a zed i demand mid and force zed to rush a qss or die over and over to me. Oh wait, malz isnt meta tho, so you must be trolling if you counterpick zed.

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 20155 votes

Malz hard-counters assassins. I love playing as him.

Kitten of EvilMar 9, 20156 votes

Zed's not unbeatable, just very frustrating to lane against. I was TF recently and started item 1029 item 2003 , and Lee came to gank lane twice... and after two ganks I was still at 2/3 health. I'm lucky TF has some mana regain in his kit, because rushing item 3191 was a lifesaver. Unfortunately, if I had been most other mids, I'd be OOM while Zed gets to waveclear and farm easily... which is really the problem.

If a Kat or LB goes 0/0 or 0/1 in lane, they are considerably less scary. Zed, however, doesn't have to get kills when he can just farm and waveclear just as well as a mage. The real problem with assassins, though, is how easily they stomp solo queue. I can hold my lane without dying, and ping MIAs, and my bot lane will still feed my Leblanc or Zed a double.

Battlecast SonaMar 9, 20153 votes

I actually think TF is a pretty good way to counter Zed - if you rush Zhonya's it doesn't really hurt you cause mana regen on blue cards, and his sustained damage and constant stuns can really make it hard for Zed to all-in. Like, if he gets stunned right after death mark and Q'd and then you zhonya's the mark and he doesn't jump back to shadow and run away (or you didn't run away from his initial shadow, either) and he just gets stunned/combo'd again.

CopelandoMar 9, 20156 votes

what did Zed build? no magic resistance because he doesn't need it?

Ulquiorra995Mar 10, 20153 votes

Zed is a problem. Theoretically, he is a perfect assassin. Lots of mobility and excellent burst, but counter able by many things. In practice... Well, when you have champions who use a meaningful resource for their spells and those who do not in a same lane, it turns out about how'd you expect. So this guy can not only assassinate you, but also outpush, outpoke, outfarm and outsustain you. Just hit his energy costs or minion damage and he's fine.

MadraMar 10, 20153 votes

I would think that a guy who gets +% AD and a damage multiplier on his ultimate would be some slow guy like Darius; not someone that can blip back to under his own turret after facerolling his keyboard; but I'm glad Riot Games proved me otherwise. My only complaint about Zed is how safe he is. I don't think shadows should last as long as they do so that a Zed has to decide faster between securing a kill and making a quick escape.

AndrogenousMar 9, 20152 votes

Well they gutted mordekaiser, who was my number one option when the enemy picked zed.... SO yeah, I will be banning the mofo from now on. We have a champ that has, great split pushing and farming ability, extreme burst damage. Ability to execute people under tower. And on top of all that , good mobility and the ability to escape ganks... He doesn't really have much of a weakness at all. And this is especially true after they nerfed mana mages.

DrakzulMar 10, 20152 votes

But if I get Zhonya's then I can't get Rabadon's and faceroll the early game.... :(

Malix FarwinMar 10, 20152 votes

I could counter-build a Zed all day, doesn't stop him from roaming bot and picking up easy kills. I dont ban Zed in rank though since my ranked elo is so low that 90% of the zed players suck. Really depends on elo i guess. i mean he is annoying to lane against him but i do okay with annie if i rush zhonyas the armor plus her E works well against him however, i dont feel like he should be able to farm as easily and as safely as he does now. Overall, nowhere near the elo to care about Zeds but mechanically i can see how he can do well.