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@Meddler: Please say Rengar is on the watchlist

darkdill··21 votes·1,851 views

It is completely anti-fun to be the victim of a rampaging Rengar. The moment you see that "!" over your head, you need to get peeled or you're automatically dead with no chance of survival. Even if you set a pink ward at your feet, he'll probably have already jumped onto you, not caring that you could detect him. And even if he dies, he's probably taken one of your number with him and inflicted serious damage on another.

Add on that Ferocity Q with a high-crit build, and I've seen Rengar's LITERALLY one-hit-kill an ADC. That cannot continue. Rengar cannot be allowed to outburst someone like Talon (who's supposed to have the highest burst of AD assassins) when he has far better tactical fighting capability as well.

The thing that's made him recently broken? The inability to use Oracle's to target him while he's stealthed, and the impracticality of every team member carrying around pink wards in the late-game. Do you want every team member to only have 5 items and leave a slot open for pinks just to have the slightest chance of handling him?

Every Rengar I've fought for the last few weeks, he always wins because we can't keep him from deleting someone. It's become fucking obnoxious at this point, and I must request that he be given the nerf bat.

50 Comments

Dusk Mane Rengar6 votes

http://i.imgflip.com/v9mtq.jpg

darkdill1 votes

item 3102 hardcounters Leblanc

She also can't crit or use lifesteal, both which Rengar can use while still one-shotting a target.

Finally, Rengar has better utility than Leblanc thanks to the vision his ult provides and his ability to slow/snare someone. Leblanc's is more conditional.

Chespin20131 votes

what is stopping you from buying armor against a rengar?

darkdill1 votes

The fact that squishies cannot generally afford the amount it would require to survive a Rengar's attack. That'd require more than one slot.

Dusk Mane Rengar1 votes

Actually item 3143 can easily fuck rengar, combined with item 3046 you should be able survive him. Also item 3102 will stop part of his combo. Dont forget item 3812 . And if that is not enough you can buy this item 2043 for the price of 75g

yay nibbers5 votes

I know this doesn't always apply, but build Zhonya's. Obviously not on AD champs (though it's pretty funny to do), but whenever appropriate. Rengar jumping out of stealth onto a golden you statue for no damage is always super funny and very satisfying if your team is nearby to kill him.

Sir Yamazuki4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TMyrcKrc,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-05T09:02:43.246+0000)

I know this doesn't always apply, but build Zhonya's. Obviously not on AD champs (though it's pretty funny to do), but whenever appropriate. Rengar jumping out of stealth onto a golden you statue for no damage is always super funny and very satisfying if your team is nearby to kill him.

If he has enough items, or is ahead, his damage is dealt roughly as quickly as it takes for an average person to even respond, so you won't use it in time unless you're scripting it. He can kill people before his leap animation even completes, and that's without having to be fed as some people like to claim.

yay nibbers3 votes

Unless he's right on top of you when he jumps, you have more than enough time to hit Zhonya's. No, he can't kill you before he reaches you. He might hurt a bit if he throws his bola mid-air but you won't be popping until his Q-augmented auto attack slaps you across the face at the end of the leap. I know this all from experience. I've played as Rengar, I've played against Rengar, I've been there and done that. His jump isn't so fast that you can't react to it. Especially since you should know it's coming thanks to the handy dandy '!' indicator that appears above your head when he's in a certain, rather large, range. You have more than enough time to press the one button it takes to activate Zhonya's unless you aren't paying attention. And if you aren't paying attention, well...

Sir Yamazuki1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TMyrcKrc,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-12-05T10:31:18.675+0000)

Unless he's right on top of you when he jumps, you have more than enough time to hit Zhonya's. No, he can't kill you before he reaches you. He might hurt a bit if he throws his bola mid-air but you won't be popping until his Q-augmented auto attack slaps you across the face at the end of the leap. I know this all from experience. I've played as Rengar, I've played against Rengar, I've been there and done that. His jump isn't so fast that you can't react to it. Especially since you should know it's coming thanks to the handy dandy '!' indicator that appears above your head when he's in a certain, rather large, range. You have more than enough time to press the one button it takes to activate Zhonya's unless you aren't paying attention. And if you aren't paying attention, well...

Yeah, lets completely ignore the videos that show otherwise.

Dusk Mane Rengar1 votes

After Rengar Rework he is NOT able to kill you before he reaches you like the guy above explained. But if you have one in which he does that pls link it i would like to watch it.

yay nibbers2 votes

Videos I'd love to see if you'd produce them. Because I've seen no such videos.

Obscuration2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TMyrcKrc,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-12-05T09:56:38.442+0000)

If he has enough items, or is ahead, his damage is dealt roughly as quickly as it takes for an average person to even respond, so you won't use it in time unless you're scripting it. He can kill people before his leap animation even completes, and that's without having to be fed as some people like to claim.

preach son

Llanite4 votes

Assassins suiciding for a kill? Sound exactly what they normally do.

darkdill4 votes

In Rengar's case, you can't really make him fail.

KONO RUBICK DA4 votes

{quoted}

In Rengar's case, you can't really make him fail.

you know someone else like him? xin zhao. If he flashes on you and dash he will knock you up ASAP and kill you in 2 sec if he has devourer black cleaver or some items

but then, xin zhao dies and can kill only one target

why xin zhao isn't on the watch list meddler?

Lady Hammerlock4 votes

{quoted}

Assassins suiciding for a kill? Sound exactly what they normally do.

are you sure? i mean there's always Ahri

iainB854 votes

The thing is, if Regnar doesn't get to the critical point where he can 1 shot a carry he's pretty useless. Total feast or famine champion. Not sure how they could fix without a total rework.

darkdill1 votes

Even if not fed, he can still snare someone or at least provide tactical vision for his team with his ult.

iainB851 votes

True, but a single target snare and some vision isn't enough unless the team is carrying him already. Just look at the passive on his bone tooth necklace (I think that's the name).

It grants him HUGE buffs in power based on the amount of kills he's gotten in game (longer jump distance, longer stealth ultimate timer). If he doesn't get these bonuses by mid/late game he's extremely lackluster compared to if he had them... if that's not a feast or famine mechanic I don't know what is.

darkdill1 votes

Compare that with Talon, though. Talon is 100% feast-or-famine, as he provides little else besides damage.

iainB851 votes

Same with Kha'Zix... I guess he has a slow, but again, pretty much useless if he falls behind. The nature of assassins I guess. To have the power to insta-kill people you can't have much utility as well without being a must pick/ban.

I can agree that Regnar has more utility than the average assassin.

It really feels like Riot has yet to figure out what a "healthy for the game" assassin is.

darkdill1 votes

Well, Rengar has that insta-kill power AND utility, so by your logic, he should be pick/ban.

iainB851 votes

He's probably not because he is gated by his ferocity resource. He can't pull off his 1-shot combo at any time. I know he can charge it pretty easily in the jungle, but it's still significant... as opposed to someone like Talon who really doesn't have anything to consider other than "do I have enough mana to cast my spells".

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

I think that's the point. He needs a rework. He can kill full health squishies in well under .25 seconds if played by a good rengar player, even without being farmed or fed. Other assasins give more reaction time or require to be more fed to 100 to 0 their target. I think a rework could make him more useful when behind while not able to oneshot people so quickly.

Ackelope2 votes

Maybe when he's made visible while in his ultimate, he can be made unable to jump/the range on the jump lessened? Not sure, that may be a little too severe.

darkdill1 votes

Nah, it should be that when he's ulting, it's more like Eve's stealth rather than common stealth. He'd still be able to jump at you if you see him, but you'd at least know his attack angle once he gets close enough to jump you.

Ackelope1 votes

I doubt that'd help, that's the same position you're in currently, when you place a pink ward sure, you can see him, but you can't prevent him from jumping without cc or escapes of some kind.

darkdill2 votes

The issue is that later on, you can't carry pinks because you'll have full slots.

ZLbSwAR23I2 votes

Sweeping Lens = Lol hi Rengar

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Rengar would be much cooler has a sneaky, easily kitable, high sustained damage/low burst damage juggernaut than a 0-counterplay assassin.

Coming from someone who LOVES Rengar.

Bouncemaster Zac2 votes

Brokengar is completely unacceptable the way he is now. There's exactly no counterplay to the way his kit currently functions. So long as his ult, which has no cost and no cooldown is up (i.e. always), the enemy adc may as well be afk because they cannot be saved. The ! that shows up to indicate he's near technically has a longer range than his leap, but with his ults bonus MS, plus mobis, plus Youmuu's, plus whatever else he'll be moving so fast that by the time the ! appears he's already mid-leap; there may as well be no indicator at all. Sweeper is useless because it's basically melee range, and pinks are useless because if he hits it while far away he'll just back off and wait the 30 seconds for his ult to be back up, and if you drop it defensively then again, it's already too late because he is already mid-leap. You simply aren't allowed to react to Rengar until after he's done upwards of 4k damage in under a second (quite literally, that isn't an exaggeration in the slightest) to you.

On top of all that he gets free resistances + self-heal to make it so you can't just kill him first, and a snare to set up his allies in the nearly nonexistent scenarios where he cant go in on his own. His base stats on top of utility and resourcelessness are so horrendously broken that you can literally troll-build on him and still wipe people with ease. He needs nerfed, in to the point of unplayability, before he's anywhere near acceptable.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

how bout kha zix. isn't it really the same thing? i mean imo its the same thing when kha zix goes on a rampage and his burst is even higher than rengar

WalkingInACircle1 votes

Rengrr*

ggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

N3mO061 votes

For your pleasure they are doing in ternal tetst to nerf him. The problem is that Rengar can only do this ( as an engager there are too many champs which do this better, having a way more utility and being less situational ). Rengar needs a REAL REWORK, not a nerf. he lacks of mechanics......

Widder883 votes

{quoted}

For your pleasure they are doing in ternal tetst to nerf him. The problem is that Rengar can only do this ( as an engager there are too many champs which do this better, having a way more utility and being less situational ). Rengar needs a REAL REWORK, not a nerf. he lacks of mechanics......

I would like a rework. But a nerf would be fine too. Nerf his tankyness, nerf his snare and nerf his base damage. Squishy and without utility like Master Yi he would be more healthy.

Rework idea:

  • Let him jump whenever he is not seen (undetected stealth, brush without vision, fog of war!), disable his jump whenever he is seen (pink ward, warded brush etc.)
  • Rengar can see where the enemy has vision and where not. So he knows if he can jump on a opponent or not.
  • Rengar gets stealthed after 2 seconds in a brush, as long as he is in the brush. (So he can jump out of brush, even if it is warded)
  • Q resets AA and gives Attack speed instead of bonus damage on next attack. Empowered Q gives Attack speed and bonus damage (unchanged), but works on towers too.
  • E scales with AP instead of AD.
  • R unchanged, but exclamation mark removed.
Taarki1 votes

That exclamation mark removed on his R would buff him to the point of no return, even if you nerf his ability to jump a little bit.

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

That exclamation mark removed on his R would buff him to the point of no return, even if you nerf his ability to jump a little bit.

Q would give Attack speed instead of bonus damage, and E would not scale with AD, so his burst would be reduced (or his overall damage output if he goes AP). Stealth combined with DPS is less toxic than stealth combined with burst. Jumping on people from stealth is what makes Rengar fun, so he should be able to do it more often, but it should be less deadly than now. And it should have more counterplay, so pink wards would take his ability to jump away when he ults, but if the enemy would see a exclamation mark, it would be way too easy to make his ult completely useless.

The exclamation mark like it is now means: We failed to balance Rengar, so we need to alert the opponent at least. My idea is to make him balanced, so you don't have to alert the opponent (like in the case of every other stealth champion).

Taarki1 votes

I understand that he would have less burst, but with the added AS, his DPS would be be as bursy as a fed draven throwing his Q at a sona and it criting to do 2k damage (I have done this). So his DPS kind of turns into burst. But since the ! is gone, we would have NO idea where he is and if he is about to DPS burst you down.

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

I understand that he would have less burst, but with the added AS, his DPS would be be as bursy as a fed draven throwing his Q at a sona and it criting to do 2k damage (I have done this). So his DPS kind of turns into burst. But since the ! is gone, we would have NO idea where he is and if he is about to DPS burst you down.

My intention is not to buff his burst, so if it is too strong, it should be nerfed. I don't like the exclamation mark, because it is an excuse too give him an overloaded kit with too much burst and utility, and placing a pink ward doesn't even stop him from jumping on somebody.

Twitch for example can DPS burst an entire team, but he has no hard CC and no tankyness. In my opinion Rengars W gives too much tankyness, and Rengars E gives too much CC and damage at the same time. If he uses the empowered E he should lose a lot of damage. His ult should give 5 ferocity instantly, but no ferocity afterwards. It is annoying that you have to get 5 ferocity before you ult, but it is overpowered, that you get 5 ferocity for free after your ult, so you can use an empowered Q shortly afterwards, even if you got the snare from the empowered E before. If he uses his empowered E he should depend on DPS.

But high DPS is something you can't take away from any champion if he builds AD. Other champions can do it too, and I don't want to make Rengar a completely useless champion. It is just that he has too much burst, hard CC and tankyness at the same time. Other stealth champions have no instant hard CC and not the same tankynesss, and they need no exclamation mark. Maybe give Rengars ult a global sound when it starts instead, if it is really necessary.

Taarki1 votes

Okay, but if you are going to remove his ! when he stealths you will have to hit him VERY hard, like taking away his jump out of his ultimate, or taking away the snare on his E or the heal on his W. Something in his kit has to be nerfed very heavily for you to buff a champion such as rengar, who can delete a person in less than a second, to the point where there is litteraly 0 counterplay besides reacting at super human speed.

Widder881 votes

{quoted}

Okay, but if you are going to remove his ! when he stealths you will have to hit him VERY hard, like taking away his jump out of his ultimate, or taking away the snare on his E or the heal on his W. Something in his kit has to be nerfed very heavily for you to buff a champion such as rengar, who can delete a person in less than a second, to the point where there is litteraly 0 counterplay besides reacting at super human speed.

Something like this:

Q: Bonus damage 150 (+20% AD) removed. Grants attack speed now. Empowered Q: Grants still the bonus damage and attack speed but no increased AD anymore. W: Damage reduced to 100 (+50% AP) from 170 (+80 AP) Empowered W: Damage reduced to 200 (+100% AP) from 250 (+80% AP) E: Damage reduced to 100 (+50% AP) from 250 (+70% Bonus AD) Empowered E: Damage reduced to 200 (+100% AP) from 340 (+70% Bonus AD)

So the Empowered Q-Q-E-W combo damage would be reduced to 440 (+250% AD)(+100% AP) from 810 (+340% AD)(+80% AP). And the Empowered E-Q-E-W combo damage would be reduced to 400 (+100% AD)(+200% AP) from 910 (+240% AD)(+80% AP).

So Rengar would lose a lot of burst, expecially if he uses his hard CC. And I would nerf the base value of his heal too and add an AP ratio. He really had to chose between damage and utility in the choice of his empowered ability and in his item choice. Therefore his jumping ability from stealth could be buffed. The exclamation buff removal is not even the biggest buff. He could jump out of the fog of war. He could jump from behind every corner if it is not warded. Whenever he is not seen. But wards and pink wards, would add real counterplay, because he could not jump if he is seen.

It is just an idea. A Rengar who jumps out of nowhere very often, but has to do damage as a Meele Adc with constant AAs instead of bursting from 100 to 0 in one second. If it is not balanced, you can change the numbers a little bit.

Taarki1 votes

Okay, I could get behind this. I must not have read your previous posts very well because I didn't think you were proposing to nerf his base damages that much. Even tho a few people might agree with this, Riot will never implement this without almost a full rework.

Tyroneology1 votes

I've never understood why people make all these posts about being upset about a 1 shot. Rengar is an ASSASSIN that is what they are made to do.

darkdill1 votes

The fact that Rengar's much much harder to counter. He's more durable than other assassins thanks to his W, and thanks to his stealth you never can tell the EXACT moment when he'll jump and will have a hellish time telling WHERE he's coming from.

Br4ndon1 votes

The thing i hate about rengar is when he's picked you need to make sure at least 2 carries are very fed. He will always instantly kill 1. He basically makes the game a 4v5 unless he many levels and items behind.

When youre going a carry or support role into rengar you know its going to be miserable because he's so hard to prevent from killing you in under half a second from stealth.

And Im Limp1 votes

Not to mention how Rengar is a god at camping you in your jungle camps at the beginning of the game making it impossible to level up with your team and making him so strong you end up surrendering xD

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