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I don't get it about people's hate for CT

chipndip1··11 votes·1,056 views

You guys say he makes bad champion designs, but he clearly doesn't:

  • All his champs feel like they're valuable picks, even when they're blatantly not. With a 48% Diamond win rate, Yasuo is generally the worst bet for a top lane skirmisher pick AFTER being buffed. Before now, he had like a 46% win rate, and people STILL loathed his "op kit". Zoe's general win rate only breaks even (50%) in Diamond, but I have low elo players constantly complaining about her E, or her Q, or her R of all things, or whatever. If part of the point of champion design is that your champ should feel good and strong in the minds of the players, CT's champs do this in spades.

  • You guys remember the baby raging Sona mains? How her even dropping a smudge in win rate causes the hive of 7 players to get razzed up? Well, Meddler said this 2 years ago

{quoted}

  1. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.
  2. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

CT's kits don't have this issue. Many of them are dependent on landing skill shots and his newer ones, like Yasuo, Zoe, and Thresh, have clear tells that let you know "Hey, she just sent her burst damage tool way out backwards. I bet she's gonna send it right at me in a moment." Or "Hey, he's winding up his hook. I better not walk in a straight line." Because of this clear communication between players and these elements of variance, CT's champs are allowed to feel the way they do. Meanwhile, Sona players get riled up nearly any time she's nerfed, or even just drops in win rate. I'd know, since I'm (or maybe I used to be. I play a bit of Nami now) one of them.

  • For all the assholes that downplay my achievement of D3 this year because I got it playing Sona when I'm a Sona 1-trick of two years, you guys have a lot of crying to do when it comes to Thresh high skill champ champions Zoe two-stepping on your corpse Yasuo. I thought we LOVE high skill cap champs around here? Don't we hate the Janna face rollers that can get nerfed and bubble back to being one of the highest win rate champs in the game without even interacting with lane opponents Janna? All of CT's champs require both the player and the opponent to actually focus in on the interactions between themselves if that side wants to come out on top.

  • CT has designed champs with the most dedicated player bases in this game, period, between Yasuo and Thresh. If Zoe goes well, then she may be added to that list, too. Meanwhile, how's Skarner doing? How about Mordekaiser? By the bye, I definitely sometimes forget Ivern is a character in the game. Not even being sarcastic. CT has yet to land a champion that does that bad in popularity (unless I'm mistaken, but I don't think I am). His designs don't even have to be strong to be adored by tons of players willing to grind it out on those champs because they feel impactful and fun, despite their potential weaknesses. Like, my friends can whine about wanting peel from divers and shit, but the support on the team picked Thresh. I'm sitting there like "Well, Thresh is a play maker. His defensive tools are "alright", but you should have picked a Warden or Enchanter support if peel is gonna be our issue". People don't realize it though since people feel like Thresh is THAT GUY in the bot lane in almost any meta.

  • Lastly, some REAL haters come up with the "his champs aren't unique" gig, and I'm just at a loss of words for it. Like, someone actually tried to say that Yasuo was a rip-off of Riven. I don't remember Yasuo having an AD scaling shield. I don't remember Riven having a line skill shot. I don't remember Riven needing a knock-up to use her ult, and I don't remember Yasuo having the ability to dash without minions.

I don't even play CT's champs. I just like being fair. The circle jerk against CT's champs, especially Zoe, is unfair.

46 Comments

HalcyonDweller5 votes

It's not a matter of balance with his champions. It is that their kits tend to have mechanics that are extremely frustrating to play against.

His champions could be garbage tier and completely worthless to pick but people would still hate them the same. It's because of how frustrating the mechanics are that he implements.

Here's something somebody else wrote on the subject. I'd like to highlight their example of gameplay in a Zoe VS Xerath match-up.

The degree to which a champion can outplay their weaknesses is the main issue in his champion designs. With his champions it's honestly not difficult and they can completely negate any weaknesses that they would've otherwise had to deal with. Most champions can deal with their weaknesses with a very large amount of work put in, but they never get rid of them completely.

An ADC never has been and never should be equal to an assassin in a 1v1. If the ADC player is clearly head and shoulders above his opponent then he can do something, but if the Assassin is of a similar skill level or at the very least does not make major mistakes then they won't lose.

Zoe? It's disgusting seeing floods and floods of clips coming in where the people playing her can literally screw up every single part of her kit and still come out ahead. If played properly then "weaknesses" were never a factor in the first place.

An example from today was a clip of G2 Perkz VS a Xerath in a 1v1 duel. Perkz Q ulties in and misses the Q then E's before blinking back. This SHOULD be a situation where Zoe is punished for screwing up 2 separate abilities, but instead her Q is already back up again by the time the sleep CC takes effect. Perkz does a simple short range Q and is rewarded for his "skilled" gameplay by shaving off a solid 70%+ of the Xeraths HP. And surprise surprise his ulty is already back up and he goes in for another combo.

Xerath wins in the end, but only because Perkz once again missed a Q ulty combo and then his E. It was really sad that considering how badly Perkz played that it came so close to the Xerath dying.

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

It's not a matter of balance with his champions. It is that their kits tend to have mechanics that are extremely frustrating to play against.

His champions could be garbage tier and completely worthless to pick but people would still hate them the same. It's because of how frustrating the mechanics are that he implements.

Here's something somebody else wrote on the subject. I'd like to highlight their example of gameplay in a Zoe VS Xerath match-up.

If he lost in the end, your quote is moot.

Xerath got punished for getting hit by Zoe's confirm by losing a good deal of his health. Zoe got punished for playing like a moron by dying. Also, Xerath is meant to be way far away from champs like Zoe in the first place. Xerath's an artillery mage. RANGE is his advantage. There are other mages that do better in close range scraps than a Xerath can, and he still won because Zoe played that badly even after getting in Xerath's range, where she should have advantage.

What's the problem? A burst mage can't burst a squishy target now?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

If he lost in the end, your quote is moot.

Xerath got punished for getting hit by Zoe's confirm by losing a good deal of his health. Zoe got punished for playing like a moron by dying. Also, Xerath is meant to be way far away from champs like Zoe in the first place. Xerath's an artillery mage. RANGE is his advantage. There are other mages that do better in close range scraps than a Xerath can, and he still won because Zoe played that badly even after getting in Xerath's range, where she should have advantage.

What's the problem? A burst mage can't burst a squishy target now?

...

"If he lost in the end, your quote is moot." "What's the problem? A burst mage can't burst a squishy target now?"

Are you being willfully ignorant? Because this looks like you are intentionally ignoring points and cherry picking the example to make it easier to dismiss.

Zoe shouldn't be able to fuck up a trade and still manage to chunk the enemy for 70%. Either her sleep has too long of a duration or her Q is on too short of a cooldown. Something needs to be changed so that it's not possible for her to re-engage for free like that.

And don't try to say it wasn't "free" because it was, she only died because she fucked up again in the NEXT trade after that.

"Xerath's an artillery mage. RANGE is his advantage."

How the fuck is Xerath supposed to stay out of Zoe's range? From the looks of the example, he was out of range until she ulted in. What did you expect a Xerath player to do, play patty-cake with his second turret?

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

...

Are you being willfully ignorant? Because this looks like you are intentionally ignoring points and cherry picking the example to make it easier to dismiss.

Zoe shouldn't be able to fuck up a trade and still manage to chunk the enemy for 70%. Either her sleep has too long of a duration or her Q is on too short of a cooldown. Something needs to be changed so that it's not possible for her to re-engage for free like that.

And don't try to say it wasn't "free" because it was, she only died because she fucked up again in the NEXT trade after that.

How the fuck is Xerath supposed to stay out of Zoe's range? From the looks of the example, he was out of range until she ulted in. What did you expect a Xerath player to do, play patty-cake with his second turret?

You take like 2-3 sentences out of an entire reply and don't respond to anything in the middle that clearly explains why those few sentences exist?

One more reason why I find it hard to take people seriously around here.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

{quoted}

You take like 2-3 sentences out of an entire reply and don't respond to anything in the middle that clearly explains why those few sentences exist?

One more reason why I find it hard to take people seriously around here.

The entirety of the reply was like, 4 sentences maybe. I responded to the parts that made me angry. Maybe next time you want a reasonable response don't start your comment off by saying, "well your entire argument is moot..." and then oversimplifying the entire situation.

The example was obviously not about the Xerath getting the kill. It was about how Zoe's mechanics allowed her to fail a trade, then re-engage to chunk the enemy despite failing before. Don't change the goalpost by saying stuff like "in the end" because I'm not talking about in the end, I'm talking about that one fucking trade.

I've seen you around before, and generally I respect you, but I take issue with it when people move the goalposts on me. You're using fallacies and dodging the point. And that bothers me.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

The entirety of the reply was like, 4 sentences maybe. I responded to the parts that made me angry. Maybe next time you want a reasonable response don't start your comment off by saying, "well your entire argument is moot..." and then oversimplifying the entire situation.

I had an opening sentence, an entire paragraph, and an ending sentence. You literally replied to the first and last sentences with literally 0 context when the paragraph had the entire substance of my reply.

The example was obviously not about the Xerath getting the kill. It was about how Zoe's mechanics allowed her to fail a trade, then re-engage to chunk the enemy despite failing before. Don't change the goalpost by saying stuff like "in the end" because I'm not talking about in the end, I'm talking about that one fucking trade.

The entire game has a ton of different types of champs. If Zoe wasn't gonna be a burst mage with low cds, someone else was going to later.

I also have no context about either of the players. Their exp, gold, builds...nada.

I've seen you around before, and generally I respect you, but I take issue with it when people move the goalposts on me. You're using fallacies and dodging the point. And that bothers me.

I'm not moving a goalpost. Xerath got hit, but Zoe died. Why? Cause Zoe played worse. What's the problem?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

I had an opening sentence, an entire paragraph, and an ending sentence. You literally replied to the first and last sentences with literally 0 context when the paragraph had the entire substance of my reply.

Looking back at it, I see what you're talking about. But no, I was responding to more than just the opening and closing statements. just because I didn't quote it didn't mean I didn't address it. This bit was in reply to your paragraph about the example:

"Zoe shouldn't be able to fuck up a trade and still manage to chunk the enemy for 70%. Either her sleep has too long of a duration or her Q is on too short of a cooldown. Something needs to be changed so that it's not possible for her to re-engage for free like that."

The entire game has a ton of different types of champs. If Zoe wasn't gonna be a burst mage with low cds, someone else was going to later.

You're still missing the point, this isn't about a burst mage existing. I don't have issues with mages that 100-0 people. I just have problems with mages who can miss half their skills and still be rewarded by 100-30 their opponents despite missing those skills. Zoe's Rotation is not on a long enough cooldown for the damage it gives her. Kits are supposed to have meaningful windows of power that opponents can take advantage of, and Zoe fails at least somewhat in that department.

I also have no context about either of the players. Their exp, gold, builds...nada.

I'm not moving a goalpost. Xerath got hit, but Zoe died. Why? Cause Zoe played worse. What's the problem?

See the quoted bit that I put in italics above.

I feel like I need to clarify some things, because so far it seems we're setting ourselves up on opposite sides of a very messy mud-fight.

  1. I don't hate CertainlyT and I would never call for him to be fired. I think that people who call for him to be fired are acting like entitled little brats and I have no patience for them. So if you're arguing with me because you think I just hate CertainlyT and everything he represents, please stop. I don't hate him.

  2. I still have issues with a number his champions, and their kits have agency issues. It is my perception of the champions that they do often have a lot more agency over what happens than their opponents do. They can out-play their counterplay. Which by itself isn't a bad thing, but when their opponent doesn't have any similar benefit for their own counterplay, it becomes vastly unfair.

  3. Just to be clear, I think we are on the same side here. CertainlyT shouldn't be fired. But I also recognize that people's complaints about the champions he designs are valid - to some degree. And it is wrong to simply discount their complaints.

For example, Zoe has powerful poke and long CC, so she can attempt to poke, fail but land her CC and then she can just try to poke again and she gets to chunk the opponent anyway. That doesn't seem fair, other burst or poke mages who miss their skills have to wait a while to be able to pull their rotations off again. Why should Zoe get to cheat her way out of that rule?

And Yasuo places too much of a burden of knowledge on people to EVER be fair. In order to play as or against Yasuo you have to learn his mechanics and kit thoroughly, and you have to work hard to get there (leading to low skill players feeding and high skill players dominating - both playing and opposing him).

Realistically players at lower skill levels are never going to be able to put the time into learning everything you must do as or against Yasuo. It takes too much time and effort for them. And this is precisely why Yasuo stomps lower levels and sucks at higher levels of play. The pros have put the time into the game and they have all of that advanced knowledge for how to beat him. While lower level players cannot possibly be expected to learn that much.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Looking back at it, I see what you're talking about. But no, I was responding to more than just the opening and closing statements. just because I didn't quote it didn't mean I didn't address it. This bit was in reply to your paragraph about the example:

"Zoe shouldn't be able to fuck up a trade and still manage to chunk the enemy for 70%. Either her sleep has too long of a duration or her Q is on too short of a cooldown. Something needs to be changed so that it's not possible for her to re-engage for free like that."

Once again: If she wasn't going to be able to, someone was going to eventually. Vlad has low cds for prolonged fights. Cass has 'em. Azir has 'em, save his dash. Zoe has Q, because she can't activate W freely, R is temporary re-positioning with no damage, and E is a confirm for Q, her only actual damage move as a burst mage. Increasing Q's cd means not only nerfing her ability to fight champs, but also her ability to clear waves and farm, which is already lack luster.

Also, you said he "missed and got to 100 -> 30 someone". No, he missed, then hit his ability after he missed when it came up again. Also, once again, I have no information on the logistics of this. Nothing on items, the distance traveled on Q, levels, nothing.

You're still missing the point, this isn't about a burst mage existing. I don't have issues with mages that 100-0 people. I just have problems with mages who can miss half their skills and still be rewarded by 100-30 their opponents despite missing those skills.

She landed Q. Not the first time, but she eventually did. Q is also her main damage. It's like taking 70% of my health from Syndra's R.

Now, you'd say "Syndra's R has a long cd", but Syndra's R doesn't miss. It's guaranteed massive burst, and Syndra herself has 2 forms of cc in her kit to boot to help get prep an entire combo for it. Zoe's Q can be dodged, and since it has to be prepared via distance traveled, the more damage it's going to do, the longer it's been out, telling everyone that it's coming and that they should dodge.

Zoe's Rotation is not on a long enough cooldown for the damage it gives her. Kits are supposed to have meaningful windows of power that opponents can take advantage of, and Zoe fails at least somewhat in that department.

A LOT of mages have low cds these days. Also, Zoe's kit is high damage, low utility. You guys wanna know why we have this "cc creep" that's been fucking melees over? Because Riot realizes that people hate getting bursted, so they bleed out some of the damage a kit would do and add slows, stuns, shields, roots, and whatever else into it. Zoe has 1 cc for 1 person that releases when they're hit by 1 move. That's all her in-kit cc she can reliably access. That said, a lot of Zoe's power budget is in raw damage. Syndra? Has a stun and a slow. Lux? Snare for 2 + aoe slow field + shield for up to 5 twice + vision. Veigar? Aoe stun you can't dash/jump through. Orianna? Slow field + shield that buffs resistances + pull (her ult is a pull towards the ball). A ton of other mages have a good deal of utility over Zoe. Zoe is the most single-target damage oriented burst mage we got in the game atm, and that's honestly what she's laser-focused into.

I feel like I need to clarify some things, because so far it seems we're setting ourselves up on opposite sides of a very messy mud-fight.

  1. I don't hate CertainlyT and I would never call for him to be fired. I think that people who call for him to be fired are acting like entitled little brats and I have no patience for them. So if you're arguing with me because you think I just hate CertainlyT and everything he represents, please stop. I don't hate him.

Nice to clarify.

  1. I still have issues with a number his champions, and their kits have agency issues. It is my perception of the champions that they do often have a lot more agency over what happens than their opponents do. They can out-play their counterplay. Which by itself isn't a bad thing, but when their opponent doesn't have any similar benefit for their own counterplay, it becomes vastly unfair.

Turns out the guy that made Ezreal, a champion that not only doesn't stay balanced but also warps game balance around him, also made champs like Teemo. People dislike CT more because he's more visible, but he's far from making the most egregious designs in the game.

Also, his champs have tools to let them attempt to slide through tricky situations, but people act like "now there's no counter-play! Q_Q". Zoe still hates getting ran up on. Darius still hates range. Thresh doesn't like the late game. Yasuo's still crying if he steps in glue and still needs a party to dash through otherwise he's completely immobile. They're "frustrating", but that's because they force you to play through it (more or less) than, say, Syndra just sending you back to fountain off a massive ult so you can vent to yourself, or MF just clean sweeping half a team by pressing a button in a direction. I'd rather have the agency to play around a CT champ than just get clean cucked n' fucked by someone like Master Yi charging in at me (assuming he's on enough items to get to this point) or Veigar pressing "R" once.

  1. Just to be clear, I think we are on the same side here. CertainlyT shouldn't be fired. But I also recognize that people's complaints about the champions he designs are valid - to some degree. And it is wrong to simply discount their complaints.

To some degree? Maybe.

But, honestly, most of it is low elo whining that you simply can't work with. Like, the hell are we gonna do with the complaints about Yasuo? You can't change the kit into something else because whatever you compensate his changes with will once again be complained about, anyway.

For example, Zoe has powerful poke and long CC, so she can attempt to poke, fail but land her CC and then she can just try to poke again and she gets to chunk the opponent anyway. That doesn't seem fair, other burst or poke mages who miss their skills have to wait a while to be able to pull their rotations off again. Why should Zoe get to cheat her way out of that rule?

Because other burst mages bring way more utility and fight at sustained long ranges better than Zoe does, whereas Zoe has to constantly dip in and out of people's ranges while her main confirm spell can be easily counter-built, leaving her wide open for anyone that pressures her after cleansing it. It's also easy to dodge if you see it coming, and has shit range unless it goes through terrain. That is Zoe's main damage confirm and only line of defense in a tight situation. Many other mages have many other answers, but their offensive ability doesn't spike as hard as Zoe's does.

And Yasuo places too much of a burden of knowledge on people to EVER be fair. In order to play as or against Yasuo you have to learn his mechanics and kit thoroughly, and you have to work hard to get there (leading to low skill players feeding and high skill players dominating - both playing and opposing him).

So just fuck high skill cap champs? It's the same for any high skill champ. You learn their tricks because they have more of them. Azir...Ryze...Yasuo...Thresh...Riven...like, what, dumb the game down? You're advocating to dumb the game down?

Realistically players at lower skill levels are never going to be able to put the time into learning everything you must do as or against Yasuo.

...it's a hardcore game. There's a point where you simply need to just learn the game or get dealt the hand you're dealt.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Removed some stuff from the quote, that stuff is things that I understood or agreed with and had no response for.

{quoted}

-snip-

Turns out the guy that made Ezreal, a champion that not only doesn't stay balanced but also warps game balance around him, also made champs like Teemo. People dislike CT more because he's more visible, but he's far from making the most egregious designs in the game.

I'm not saying it is okay to single out CertainlyT, but I'm saying that player's frustrations with his champions are fair. People still hate Teemo and Ezreal, they just don't know that they share the same designer.

-snip-

To some degree? Maybe.

But, honestly, most of it is low elo whining that you simply can't work with. Like, the hell are we gonna do with the complaints about Yasuo? You can't change the kit into something else because whatever you compensate his changes with will once again be complained about, anyway.

You can't just rely on calling people low ELO to dismiss their claims. Doing so is not only unhelpful to resolving the issue but it is also inflammatory.

-snip-

So just fuck high skill cap champs? It's the same for any high skill champ. You learn their tricks because they have more of them. Azir...Ryze...Yasuo...Thresh...Riven...like, what, dumb the game down? You're advocating to dumb the game down?

I condensed that paragraph about Yasuo to save space. Let me make it clearer. Yasuo sucks at higher skill levels, and he wrecks at lower skill levels. Now this isn't because of his broken-ness or lack thereof. It is because of the burden of knowledge he places on opponents.

He does so many different things, it is overwhelming for players with less experience against him to track it all and figure out how to do anything to counter it. Skillful players have put the time in to learn all the tricks for dealing with Yasuo, and so he becomes underpowered against them because he can so easily be taken advantage of by them.

With other champions, counterplay is simpler, and you don't have to track as much. Blitzcrank? Main thing you need to do is juke. Syndra? Avoid standing behind her balls to avoid the stun. Olaf and other juggernauts? Stay out of their range. But Yasuo has so much more to keep track of.

You have to worry about poking his passive shield off, you have to worry about wind-wall completely unmaking your champion's power fantasy by eating their ultimate, and you have to worry about being around minions because of how unpredictable his dashes are. All of these things combined make him a lot harder for people to deal with. And that's not fair. Most other champions don't force the opponents to work that hard just to deal with them.

I'm not arguing for nerfing him. I'm arguing for reworking him. He needs a kit that is more skill expressive and less overbearing. Something that functions well at both high and low ranks, and that can be understood and counter-played just as fairly as other champions can be.

...it's a hardcore game. There's a point where you simply need to just learn the game or get dealt the hand you're dealt.

That's not why I've continued arguing with you. I actually subscribe to that ideal as well. I learned much of the things necessary to counter-play yasuo. But that doesn't mean I have to fucking like them.

I've stayed to argue because you relied on rank-shaming to try to kill off dissenting opinions in your thread. That was a dick move. And you should stop doing it.

OurLestrade3 votes

He's always got interesting ideas, it's just that they're always balance nightmares. It's something you enjoy playing but never want to go against.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

He's always got interesting ideas, it's just that they're always balance nightmares. It's something you enjoy playing but never want to go against.

So do you call for the man to lose his position in the company for making champs people love to play more so than any comparable champ in their role?

As a Sona player, I'd love for my champ to not feel like I'm fucking useless. After playing so much Nami, it actually feels bad trying to play Sona again. I might never go back to that champ. Time will tell.

Kivolan3 votes

There are very few people that say he makes "bad" champion designs. The problem is that he makes unhealthy champion designs that reward poor gameplay, lack clear counterplay, or are simply so overloaded that they have no counterplay.

Yasuo is not at a 48% win rate and I'm tired of people using that to justify buffs on him. Yasuo requires several games to master, and those people are sitting at a 54-55% win rate with him. These current PBE buffs are going to put him well over the line, yet again. People need to stop looking at only the overall number and look at other factors about the champion before making judgments.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

There are very few people that say he makes "bad" champion designs.

Lies. The boards are always flooded with it whenever he makes a champion or a champion of his is considered "op", which is quite often.

The problem is that he makes unhealthy champion designs that reward poor gameplay, lack clear counterplay, or are simply so overloaded that they have no counterplay.

Also lies, especially for his newer designs. I'm not gonna sit here and list out the counter-play of each CT champ. Even if I did, I'd have to do it again in an hour or two the next time someone makes that claim. Just note that this is false.

Yasuo is not at a 48% win rate and I'm tired of people using that to justify buffs on him. Yasuo requires several games to master, and those people are sitting at a 54-55% win rate with him. These current PBE buffs are going to put him well over the line, yet again. People need to stop looking at only the overall number and look at other factors about the champion before making judgments.

Yes he is on Lolalytics. 48% Diamond.

Anyone that mains a champ is expected to be at about 55% to 57% win rate, anyway, so you're still just bitching over nothing.

Kivolan1 votes

{quoted}

Lies. The boards are always flooded with it whenever he makes a champion or a champion of his is considered "op", which is quite often.

Also lies, especially for his newer designs. I'm not gonna sit here and list out the counter-play of each CT champ. Even if I did, I'd have to do it again in an hour or two the next time someone makes that claim. Just note that this is false.

Yes he is on Lolalytics. 48% Diamond.

Anyone that mains a champ is expected to be at about 55% to 57% win rate, anyway, so you're still just bitching over nothing.

"Yasuo has a win rate 49.48% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Yasuo's are earning a win rate of 57.39% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond III."

Let's compare that to my main:

"Vel'Koz has a win rate 50.50% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Vel'Koz's are earning a win rate of 54.96% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond IV."

As you seem to be fond of saying... "Lies."

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

"Yasuo has a win rate 49.48% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Yasuo's are earning a win rate of 57.39% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond III."

You didn't filter for Diamond, but I was still wrong. He's at 49% Diamond now.

Let's compare that to my main:

"Vel'Koz has a win rate 50.50% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Vel'Koz's are earning a win rate of 54.96% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond IV."

Vel'koz mid still has a higher general win rate than Yasuo mid does, although experienced Yasuo players make it a bit farther up on average than Vel'koz players do. Also, to be fair to Vel'Koz, he makes a great organized play pick, so I imagine you'll transition to "Clash" way easier than a Yasuo player can in one year's time.

Azure Hamster1 votes

{quoted}

There are very few people that say he makes "bad" champion designs. The problem is that he makes unhealthy champion designs that reward poor gameplay, lack clear counterplay, or are simply so overloaded that they have no counterplay.

That's pretty well untrue.

Caitlyn

Salron2 votes

The Yasuo buffs have been live since 7.24b though And his winrate is at 49% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Yasuo/

TheDevice1 votes

{quoted} and those people are sitting at a 54-55% win rate with him.

Same for high playrate rivens and poppys and gangplanks and fizz' and fioras' etc etc

Kivolan1 votes

{quoted}

Same for high playrate rivens and poppys and gangplanks and fizz' and fioras' etc etc

Basic reading comprehension is difficult, isn't it?

You might want to continue reading to the next sentence where I talk about how the current PBE buffs are going to put him at an unreasonable win rate again, which should lead to the conclusion that I don't think he's currently a problem. Toxic kits are difficult to balance, yes, but he's in a perfectly fine spot right now without an additional 20 damage on his Q, range on his ult and extra MR.

TheDevice1 votes

{quoted}

Basic reading comprehension is difficult, isn't it?

You might want to continue reading to the next sentence where I talk about how the current PBE buffs are going to put him at an unreasonable win rate again, which should lead to the conclusion that I don't think he's currently a problem. Toxic kits are difficult to balance, yes, but he's in a perfectly fine spot right now without an additional 20 damage on his Q, range on his ult and extra MR.

Try to not be such a child when you reply to people.

You want to throw a tantrum over a bonus 20 on max rank Q and a slight range increase, be my guest. Maybe it will bring that high playrate winrate up by... 1% gasp then he'll be like riven! I think you're overreacting and in need of a hug or maybe a tampon idk.

Kivolan1 votes

{quoted}

Try to not be such a child when you reply to people.

You want to throw a tantrum over a bonus 20 on max rank Q and a slight range increase, be my guest. Maybe it will bring that high playrate winrate up by... 1% gasp then he'll be like riven! I think you're overreacting and in need of a hug or maybe a tampon idk.

I pointed out the fact that you hadn't even read my post and you follow it up by calling me "childish" while you simultaneously imply that I'm on my period?

Here, if you want to get nasty, I'll do you one better: someone who is barely out of Bronze shouldn't be commenting on game balance, especially regarding a champion who is strongest in an elo three tiers above theirs.

TheDevice1 votes

{quoted}

I pointed out the fact that you hadn't even read my post and you follow it up by calling me "childish" while you simultaneously imply that I'm on my period?

Here, if you want to get nasty, I'll do you one better: someone who is barely out of Bronze shouldn't be commenting on game balance, especially regarding a champion who is strongest in an elo three tiers above theirs.

I suppose I should be bitching about champions like you instead of getting gud aye? Is that what good players do now? Just complain and cry that a champ is "unfun" Boohoo. Lol you're a joke btw that yas buff already hit December 14. Tell me again what the issue is?

Mordepool2 votes

Ok let's be fucking CLEAR about ONE THING. Mordekaiser's dedicated fanbase existed long before Certainlyt butchered him for an experiment. That fan base is about 50% of what it used to be.

Morde as he is now is the result of the live balance team (GJ btw) with the exception of the W. Which if looked at in-depth the W is a extremely well designed ability. That certainly t made. Can't deny he has skill

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Ok let's be fucking CLEAR about ONE THING. Mordekaiser's dedicated fanbase existed long before Certainlyt butchered him for an experiment. That fan base is about 50% of what it used to be.

Morde as he is now is the result of the live balance team (GJ btw) with the exception of the W. Which if looked at in-depth the W is a extremely well designed ability. That certainly t made. Can't deny he has skill

Morde had a dedicated fan base of you, Malicious, and maybe 2 or 3 other people we're forgetting. He has always been a very fringe champion who rarely saw the light of day. He has a fan base, but it's extremely tiny. He wasn't some super star before now.

RenownedWheat422 votes

Personally, I love playing as the CT champs and don't actually hate playing against them. I don't even actually dislike it that much, either.

ChompyWulf1 votes

Playing against champs are kinda like if someone handed you a 1000 piece puzzle box, but with 500 pieces of another puzzle mixed in. It's possible to deal with it, but incredibly frustrating.

That's not healthy design, especially when his final products are repeatedly balance nightmares that dance on the edge of OP or trash because they are made that way and really need an overall kit rework.

It doesn't help that literally no other designer has a track record half as divisive as him.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Playing against champs are kinda like if someone handed you a 1000 piece puzzle box, but with 500 pieces of another puzzle mixed in. It's possible to deal with it, but incredibly frustrating.

That's not healthy design, especially when his final products are repeatedly balance nightmares that dance on the edge of OP or trash because they are made that way and really need an overall kit rework.

It doesn't help that literally no other designer has a track record half as divisive as him.

No, the issue with CT champs is that they actually require you to truly play around the elements in his champ's kits. If Thresh winds up, he's guessing where you're going and you're trying to change up your trajectory so he doesn't hit you. If Yasuo has his shield up, he's trying to not lose it off a wimpy AA and you're trying to use the least expensive tool you have to remove it. If Zoe winds up Q, she's trying to weave it through minions to you and you're trying to duck and cover. The point of a good champ design is that it offers agency to those on both ends of the equation, but people apparently don't like having that agency because it requires mental effort.

Maybe someone like Master Yi should become super meta for a few patches, just so we can remember how a real toxic kit looks like?

Edit: And if people are gonna downvote without making an actual rebuttal, you're just showing how much of a blind hater you are. Remember, I don't even play CT champs and I can still have this position on his designs.

ChompyWulf1 votes

You're confusing what is toxic in his designs. For starters, Thresh is pretty much the only one of his champs who is a good kit and can be viable without being broken. Yasuo's shield is OK. Being manaless, no actual cool down on said shield, and has a stupid almost no-cooldown damaging dash which allows both aggressive initiations and seamless escapes is the issue. Zoe has a whole kit problem, starting with a ranged hell AoE CC, a LOT of damage loaded onto her Q because her overall kit lacks built in damaging abilities, but also has insanely broken potential thanks to W letting her use more item actives and summoners than any player should get. It took a long time playing with buffs and nerfs before a rework put Darius in a fair state, same for Zyra, though she is still a crazy bully with little counter play. Kalista is still in a state where she is either OP thanks to buffs and item stats, or garbage because of nerfs and item stats dropping.

His champs on release have always been a toxin. It shouldn't be acceptable that they need rebalanced after release without exception.

Kai Guy1 votes

I don't think Zyra is that toxic for the game. Darius was strong on release but I don't recall finding him to have been gamebreaking.

ChompyWulf1 votes

Zyra is in a better place now, but before either couldn't have pods enough to zone and damage, or too easily was controlling a lane and being a second carry. Darius was a crazy OP bully who had to be banned or you'd have to play a counter. The list he would wreck in lane was far longer. The Ult was far too strong.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

You're confusing what is toxic in his designs. For starters, Thresh is pretty much the only one of his champs who is a good kit and can be viable without being broken. Yasuo's shield is OK. Being manaless, no actual cool down on said shield, and has a stupid almost no-cooldown damaging dash which allows both aggressive initiations and seamless escapes is the issue. Zoe has a whole kit problem, starting with a ranged hell AoE CC, a LOT of damage loaded onto her Q because her overall kit lacks built in damaging abilities, but also has insanely broken potential thanks to W letting her use more item actives and summoners than any player should get. It took a long time playing with buffs and nerfs before a rework put Darius in a fair state, same for Zyra, though she is still a crazy bully with little counter play. Kalista is still in a state where she is either OP thanks to buffs and item stats, or garbage because of nerfs and item stats dropping.

His champs on release have always been a toxin. It shouldn't be acceptable that they need rebalanced after release without exception.

  1. Zoe hasn't needed any major rebalancing after her release. She sucks in Bronze and is pretty good in high elo, where the good players are. Then again, they made her with that being the intention in the first place. People are too busy crying their eyes out to realize this, though.

  2. Yasuo's shield is fully removed by stray AAs, and its cd is dependent on how much he moves around. If he can't move, he isn't getting the shield back. If he can't move enough, it won't be back in time. Even if it comes back, any stray projectile removes it all over again.

  3. Yasuo's dash has cds, based on the number of targets he didn't dash through yet. The more people in the fray to weave through, the more dashes he has. Kinda important, since he dies the second he's held down since he's usually squishy as hell while in melee range.

So if you just escape through the river/jg, Yasuo literally loses almost all mobility options to chase you with.

  1. Zoe doesn't have aoe cc. Like...what?

  2. W isn't an actual issue for almost the entire player base. Maybe in high elo it could be an issue, and if it is, Riot will address it, but no low elo or mid elo Zoe is gonna be using her well.

When you guys mix misinformation with blind rabble, of course it's easy to start hate sprees.

ChompyWulf1 votes

First...yes, Yasuo can be escaped to a degree by running to areas without minions or monsters...but that means you surrendered the lane. That isn't counter play, it's retreat. His shield lasts for a brief period after being triggered and there is no loss of buildup on it. By contrast, Malz passive shield is gone in a blink, has a long cool down, and any damage taken resets it. And you don't acknowledge the inherent advantage of no mana coats for Yasuo.

Yes, Zoe by definition has an AoE CC, the sleep zone is an AoE that persists if it doesn't hit directly. She is an example of a toxic kit, whether low elo players currently struggle to capitalize on it or not.

You may be some stupid sycophant who bows to CertainlyT, but there are legit reasons why his champion designs are hated. Your failure to argue or even acknowledge points made betray a horrific bias.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

First...yes, Yasuo can be escaped to a degree by running to areas without minions or monsters...but that means you surrendered the lane. That isn't counter play, it's retreat. His shield lasts for a brief period after being triggered and there is no loss of buildup on it. By contrast, Malz passive shield is gone in a blink, has a long cool down, and any damage taken resets it. And you don't acknowledge the inherent advantage of no mana coats for Yasuo.

So what you're saying is you can't beat ANY Yasuo players? He's THIS strong for you?

Yes, Zoe by definition has an AoE CC, the sleep zone is an AoE that persists if it doesn't hit directly. She is an example of a toxic kit, whether low elo players currently struggle to capitalize on it or not.

She has no aoe cc. The zone hits one person. If that's aoe cc, then Caitlyn has aoe cc.

You may be some stupid sycophant...

And I'm officially done keeping the gloves on. Fuck off.

DontTouchMyBall1 votes

tl,dr stop Reading at title :^) joking, but I don't agree I'm still permabaning Yas whenever Vayne is already banned. Hopefully his high banrate all accross his existance is a message that will be understood one day. I personally dont enjoy even having him even on my team. He's the definition of a coinflip on my team and an annoyance on the enemy team.

Douglas Funnie1 votes

I'll tell you what's unfair. RNG is unfair. It's not good for the person playing the champ and it's not good for the person who is playing against the champ.
RNG with overloaded kits and overpowered damage is a horrible combination.

Kai Guy1 votes

Because the boards makes it clear when he works on a champion, or when one of his champions is an issue. You NEVER see threads complaining about the dude who made Teemo for example. That guy also made Ahri Tristana Vladimir Nasus Blitzcrank MasterYi KogMaw Malzahar Caitlyn When they are being complained about on boards have you ever heard a single complaint about the creator? hell most folks wont know who made them until they look it up. (spoiler he also made Ezreal who's named after him.)
The same bloke that made Vayne also made Draven Khazix Maokai Leona Sejuani . I recall seeing tilt over all of them, not once did some one stay going on about either of them getting canned.

CT engaged with community when they had some issues w his champions, that went over badly with a lot of folks and now its a constant flood of folks hating on him and every thing he does. By participating with community he put a giant target on his back.

Gameplay wise theres a lot of mechanics in his champions that frustrate players but I think the reason you see so much tilt directed at him is simply becase he is an easy target due to being visible. Ask some of your friends list if the know who made their main champ with out looking it up, then ask them if they know who made Yasuo.

Edit, added a link to Ezreals champions Here With a disclaimer being that I enjoy a good amount of both Colt and Bradford work on champion design and actively dislike the way community behaves on the daily.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TFP7G7Mk,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-01-02T21:10:48.057+0000)

Because the boards makes it clear when he works on a champion, or when one of his champions is an issue. You NEVER see threads complaining about the dude who made Teemo for example. That guy also made Ahri Tristana Vladimir Nasus Blitzcrank MasterYi KogMaw Malzahar Caitlyn When they are being complained about on boards have you ever heard a single complaint about the creator? hell most folks wont know who made them until they look it up. (spoiler he also made Ezreal who's named after him.)
The same bloke that made Vayne also made Draven Khazix Maokai Leona Sejuani . I recall seeing tilt over all of them, not once did some one stay going on about either of them getting canned.

CT engaged with community when they had some issues w his champions, that went over badly with a lot of folks and now its a constant flood of folks hating on him and every thing he does. By participating with community he put a giant target on his back.

Gameplay wise theres a lot of mechanics in his champions that frustrate players but I think the reason you see so much tilt directed at him is simply becase he is an easy target due to being visible. Ask some of your friends list if the know who made their main champ with out looking it up, then ask them if they know who made Yasuo.

So the guy who made Ezreal just straight up made an entire fighting game roster of impossible-to-balance champs, including TEEMO? I'd have never known this without you telling me just now.

SithesisLord1 votes

You guys say he makes bad champion designs, but he clearly doesn't

Creativity at the cost of game health should never be allowed, which is exactly what Zoe stands for.

Zoe's W should work like Kleptomancy, in the sense that, you don´t get one of the most powerful Klepto loots, that being Elixir of Skill, early on.

There is absolutely no reason for Zoe to RNG her way to getting a TP, Redemption or an equally as powerful summoner spell or item active early on.

Similarly, her E should function in the way that Sleepy is directly dependent on Drowsy. If Drowsy is QSS'ed, black-shielded or otherwise cleansed, Sleepy should not happen. However, Sleepy should not be able to be cleansed in ANY way, similarly to how Camille's ulti can only be escaped if Camille is killed or the ult time runs out. That way, it heavily punishes people who forget to Cleanse/QSS Drowsy in time.

Riot nerfed old Nidalee for the same reason Zoe's main damage tool is currently existing. And Nidalee had no CC to hold her hand and guide her into snowballing.

CertainlyT's designs follow a 8 or 80 philosophy. They´re either performing well but are extremely frustrating to face because of all the safety nets worth of mechanics they get, or they´re performing badly but are still extremely frustrating to face for the same reason.

Yasuo fucked up his Windwall by casting it with the wrong side turned to his enemy?

Don´t worry, it blocks projectiles from either side.

Literally every other skirmisher needs to commit to a tower dive?

Yasuo gets placed outside of turret range when ulting, for some retarded reason.

Zoe missed her Q but hit her E?

Oh look, her Q is back up.

His designs are creative, but far from being healthy or able to be balanced in any way as long as the hand-holding mechanics exist.

hi ìm groot1 votes

Gonna go through your specific complaints about character mechanics.

Yasuo's windwall blocking from both sides is an intentional feature to synergize with his dash, so he can pop it, and as they try to run through, dash to the other side. Its really... not that big of a deal.

If yasuo ults someone under a tower, it tries to place him as far from the turr as it can, but if they're actually under it, he will take tower aggro. IDK how you can even complain about this, when there's so many abilities that 1 up this feature. You actually say "Literally every other skirmisher", yi and Q out of tower shots, reksai can ult out of tower shots, tons of champions that arent skirmishers have similar shit, yas just gets a slight help out by not placing him under tower for no reason when he ults.

I dont even understand the last complaint, rip champs with low CD's? 0.o

If you had stopped at the complaining about the RNG aspect I'd have agree'd its unnecessary, but then you distracted with mechanics that are perfectly reasonable.

SciTiger1 votes

Look mate, say what you want. Cry a river, scream, hit a pillow? Fact is Zoe is at a what? 49.09% win rate? Ya man.. so OP... People were raging about Kayn too when he came out on both sides. "He's worthless." "Kayn is broken the game is over." Now he is one of the most solid high tier picks for consistency.

I would get it if Zoe had a 60% or even a 55% win rate, but a 49.09% screams fair and balance. Maybe it's just some of the complainer's skill that's slightly underwhelming?

Either way, I guess the best thing in life is to just sit around and moan about how unfair LoL life is these days.

Colgate Gator1 votes

Why do people hate Chrono Trigger? It's a damn good game.

RookPusher1 votes

Have you been to Hartford? It's a wasteland?

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