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Toplane lanebullies

Warmas··12 votes·7,838 views

It has been quiet a while that Quinn Kennen Gnar have been terrorizing toplane and I don't think that I am alone with hashinshin on this. I feel like they are not getting adressed beause they are low winrate(which isn't even the case with quinn). For the counterplay you need a team which you usually won't have in soloque which is THE GAME practically, and even then are unstopable, this year's worlds is the greatest example of that. The counterplay from the toplaners side is sitting under turret waiting for lvl6, lvl11, not very healthy is it? Even though they are consantly low pickrate even when they are stupid broken because almost nobody wants to play them because toplaners are usually bruiser players (yes I sound like hashinshin but he is right about a lot of things). Now I ask isn't it a huge problem, shouldn't they be a priority to be changed. I wonder if ADCs liked Urgot Mordekaiser Karthus and like Garen Heimerdinger Syndra bot, I wonder if midlaners liked Aatrox Lulu and likeMalphite (who just got adressed) mid, I wonder if junglers liked only-tank jungler meta. Neither do toplaners like those 3 monstrosities (and some more Teemo ).

It is hard to fix these champions because their whole kit involves around bullying the lane with 0 consequences (which I don't know how was even a good idea) they all should be reworked honestly they cause only problems, but maybe nerf their 0 consequence aspect. Kennen with a 10 second cd on the disengage really? Quinn 12 seconds cd on the slow-damage-knockback-diesengage really? Gnar's E is 22 seconds cd but he also has movspeed from W and slow from Q, but don't worry the the time they get to you you turn into a tank, really? Their disengage ability is also an engage ability, while bruiser only-engage abilities like Darius E has 24 sec cd, Mordekaiser E has 24 sec cd, Renekton E (which is a diesengage as well true) has 18 sec cd, Aatrox W has 26 sec cd to name a few.

59 Comments

Minimac20008 votes

Yeah, you forgot the worst offenders being Vladimir Gangplank and Kayle who get to scale for free while being incredibly obnoxious lane bullies, like at least gnar is fightable (in his "stronger" non ranged form lmao, that ought to tell you something)

Handy Sandy 4 votes

toplane meta atm is all about Kayle Fiora. quinn and kennen aren't as strong as they used to be because of the meta shift, and gnar hasnt done anything to anyone since 2018.

The thigh guy4 votes

So long story short.

“Only melee champions should be able to be bullies, it’s not like melee champions already have EVERY other advantage over range besides just being ranged.”

5050BS3 votes

I dont see the OP as saying that. These Ranged champs "Bullying" is a low CD with zero risk.

Quinn's Vault to me is complete toxic design. Its an Interrupt a gap maker and Boost damage all in one. (same as say Darius pull) BUT it has a VERY low CD compared.

LightswornLance3 votes

It's way more toxic to be pelted by a ranged champion every time you walk up to cs and slowly widdled away at even if you're under tower vs a champion like Darius or Renekton who simply out trades you. If you play it well, and / or are playing the right champion you can outplay their trades and win the lane anyway. There is no counterplay to ranged top laners except them messing up, which TBH happens quite alot because well they are playing ranged top lane LOL what do you think their IQ is.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

It's way more toxic to be pelted by a ranged champion every time you walk up to cs and slowly widdled away at even if you're under tower vs a champion like Darius or Renekton who simply out trades you. If you play it well, and / or are playing the right champion you can outplay their trades and win the lane anyway. There is no counterplay to ranged top laners except them messing up, which TBH happens quite alot because well they are playing ranged top lane LOL what do you think their IQ is.

Are you actually going to say renekton isn’t rightclick win trade? :/

LightswornLance2 votes

When at any point did I say that? All I said is that his trading pattern is less toxic than ranged.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

When at any point did I say that? All I said is that his trading pattern is less toxic than ranged.

How is that less toxic?

  1. Dash through minions
  2. Stun enemy and insta proc pta
  3. Press q
  4. Dash back through minions
  5. Repeat
  6. Collect 300 gold.

That’s pretty toxic if you ask me. More toxic than “stop autoing me”

LightswornLance2 votes

Or you could use your brain and stand the proper distance away so he can't just simply use one e to get to you... If you force him to use two e's to get to you, he now has no way to get away and you can chunk him pretty hard as any melee. At least renekton has counterplay.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Or you could use your brain and stand the proper distance away so he can't just simply use one e to get to you... If you force him to use two e's to get to you, he now has no way to get away and you can chunk him pretty hard as any melee. At least renekton has counterplay.

So if your melee you just don’t get to cs into him? Hmmmm. Sounds like the reason you don’t like ranged champions to me. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

And renekton does not have counterplay. “Do not interact with him” is not counterplay.

LightswornLance2 votes

Nah you can still cs semi normally vs Renekton you just have to position properly, which means you cant be standing in your own minion wave, kinda like how you have to play against Ryze flux. Against certain champs you want to be in your minion wave, hook champs, Morgana etc. Renekton isnt one of them. All you have to do to win trades against Renekton is to make him be unable to use dash 2 to get away. Proper positioning is almost never found in low ranks, but once you learn it, you never have to think about it.

Not to mention Renektons E has a longer cooldown than other ranged lane bullies.

Warmas1 votes

You get it kinda wrong. Renekton can't win melee trades unless he utilizes fury or hitting a large wave and the enemy champ with his Q(discussed by LightswornLance.

To get fury as Renekton he has to push the wave, and you barely lose any minions if you don't farm while he does that because your minions are dying way faster in a push and once the wave gets to your tower you can farm it all because renekton can't bully you under turret. Renekton also pushed the wave and have to walk up to minions because he is MELEE which put him at way more risk of jungler ganks than a ranged champion. During this time not just did you have a secure way to go even in farm with renekton but he is also in an incredible threat of jungler ganks as he walks up to farm in lets say Darius's basic attack range. After the lane is reseted you can trade with him as he loses his fury.

Meanwhile these ranged champs bully you even under turret if they see fit, or worse take plates, there is no way of going even with them if they play only half correct. And don't even start with the "but darius can pull you from under turret" because he has no way of roaming like quin ult and she even scales better now(thanks to the ADC powercreep), and nowhere as useful in teamfights like kennen with his ult or gnar with his ult. And still darius can be outtraded if you know how to play against.

Renekton is a lanebully but still nowhere as frustrating and overwhelming as ranged tops. Most of the champions(if not all) he can bully outscale him pretty hard. Jax can carry the game from splitpushing if they are even, he is better in teamfights, but still he has many lane management and mechanical things to outplay renekton and win the lane. Meanwhile ranged champs just jump back and Jax can't touch them still he is lvl11 at which point quinn roamed 5 times and is 50 cs ahead and jax still can't really touch her, kennen stuns an entire team in teamfights and gnar can too, meanwhile jax is stunned during counterstrike and finished after 2 seconds without doing anything.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

You get it kinda wrong. Renekton can't win melee trades unless he utilizes fury or hitting a large wave and the enemy champ with his Q(discussed by LightswornLance.

To get fury as Renekton he has to push the wave, and you barely lose any minions if you don't farm while he does that because your minions are dying way faster in a push and once the wave gets to your tower you can farm it all because renekton can't bully you under turret. Renekton also pushed the wave and have to walk up to minions because he is MELEE which put him at way more risk of jungler ganks than a ranged champion. During this time not just did you have a secure way to go even in farm with renekton but he is also in an incredible threat of jungler ganks as he walks up to farm in lets say Darius's basic attack range. After the lane is reseted you can trade with him as he loses his fury.

Meanwhile these ranged champs bully you even under turret if they see fit, or worse take plates, there is no way of going even with them if they play only half correct. And don't even start with the "but darius can pull you from under turret" because he has no way of roaming like quin ult and she even scales better now(thanks to the ADC powercreep), and nowhere as useful in teamfights like kennen with his ult or gnar with his ult. And still darius can be outtraded if you know how to play against.

Renekton is a lanebully but still nowhere as frustrating and overwhelming as ranged tops. Most of the champions(if not all) he can bully outscale him pretty hard. Jax can carry the game from splitpushing if they are even, he is better in teamfights, but still he has many lane management and mechanical things to outplay renekton and win the lane. Meanwhile ranged champs just jump back and Jax can't touch them still he is lvl11 at which point quinn roamed 5 times and is 50 cs ahead and jax still can't really touch her, kennen stuns an entire team in teamfights and gnar can too, meanwhile jax is stunned during counterstrike and finished after 2 seconds without doing anything.

So your saying renekton isn’t a bully unless you play him the way he’s suppose to be. -.-

Warmas1 votes

What you say is a general statement that is true every lanebully (a bully isn't a bully unless you bully with them).

What I said is not this at all. My statement showed that Renekton has holes/weaknesses in his bullying that you can use to fight back meanwhile the original post itself suggests that ranged lanebullies on top has no weaknesses in bullying so you can't fight back.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

What you say is a general statement that is true every lanebully (a bully isn't a bully unless you bully with them).

What I said is not this at all. My statement showed that Renekton has holes/weaknesses in his bullying that you can use to fight back meanwhile the original post itself suggests that ranged lanebullies on top has no weaknesses in bullying so you can't fight back.

Except they do have a weakness. Being that if you ever get on them. You auto win. They cannot beat a melee champion who’s gotten in range unless absurdly fed.

Warmas1 votes

That's the whole point of the thread, you don't. These are the champions that even if you get to melee range they easily disengage cc you. If you get close to Gnar he slows you with Q procs his W passive gaining movement speed and jumps away, idk in which world could any melee get in more than 2 or 3 autos meanwhile he did the same and at range you are slowed he is boosted you will take even more damage, but he can always turn mega and just outtrade you at melee too. Quin's E knock the target slightly back(interrupting), slows and places her at max range, so in this case you can get at best 1 auto in if the quin knows where her E key is. Kennen can press E and gain an insane movspeed disengaging from anything, while also being able to stun the target, then again you are happy to get 1 auto in. They are way to safe already but don't forget that Kennen and Quin have around half the Cd of usual melee engages, leaving no window to punish. For the contrary Vlad 28 secs Cd on his W leaving time to punish.

ReportsR4Losers3 votes

Kennen weak and pathetic champion. Not sure how you can put him in your list. Must be a troll post.

Warmas8 votes

I forgot to add this is a platinum+ problem, below that it isn't really a problem. He isn't weak he was picked at worlds.

ReportsR4Losers3 votes

Why do bads always use "he was picked by a pro player one time to fill some niche one game, therefore he is a strong champion" as some kind of valid argument to prove a champion is strong.

Warmas10 votes

You called him pathetic and weak what response do you expect? I could talk about in details why he isn't weak but not like you gave a point.

Pendergast8913 votes

I do not believe buffing Darius Mordekaiser Renekton and any other melee champions engage ability is what fixes it, because those same champions will dominate almost every melee champ if that happens.

Most of complained about champs are ranged, poke champs that can kill you with a full combo when you're low enough. So the answer to that would be to have better early game melee vs ranged sustain.

Warmas1 votes

The problem is that they still poke you for free and you still can't touch them if they only increase sustain. Anyway we are talkin about a few number of ranged champions that barely any toplaner play because its not a toplaner playstyle. Its a toxic design for the majorty of toplaners and I believe the moss of the minority uses it only to exploit their toxic desgin(I used to play kennen becuase it was free elo then I realised its not worth because its not really playing toplane, I don't really get better etc.).

TheBigBoyMcCoy3 votes

Quinn main here.

Quinn has not been adressed in any sort of update for over a year now. Other than her cosmetic change earlier this year (update her running animation) and a very minor QOL update (she ults on return to fountain now) Quinn has been unchanged since mid s8. The cosmetic update I spoke of is the only time Quinn has even showed up in patch notes this season.

PhearBunny1 votes

{quoted}

Quinn main here.

Quinn has not been adressed in any sort of update for over a year now. Other than her cosmetic change earlier this year (update her running animation) and a very minor QOL update (she ults on return to fountain now) Quinn has been unchanged since mid s8. The cosmetic update I spoke of is the only time Quinn has even showed up in patch notes this season.

i might consider picking Quinn up. The more i play against them, the more i realize its almost the same exact playstyle as my Nocturne top. Obviously they have their differences, but their playstyle is almost identical.

LightswornLance3 votes

I rather not get laned bully by a fucking squirrel, at least it would make sense that Darius is a lane bully.

Darkdemon6532 votes

It's being looked at for season 10.

Warmas6 votes

Well that's been adding doran's shield 10 extra health regen so far.

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

Well that's been adding doran's shield 10 extra health regen so far.

And reducing the regen time to 8 seconds instead of 10, but yes

xelaker1 votes

And this doesn't solve literally every single problem in the game?

Z3SIeeper2 votes

That’s actually the fix we need. Especially on top of Klepto removal.

Run Second Wind + Doran on almost any champ and the Kennen matchup sucks a lot less cuz you can shrug off a ton of his auto + Q damage.

Run Second Wind + Doran in preseason and he won’t really even bother you at all while also getting 500+ less gold than before.

He’s most likely going to shift to PtA/Elec or possibly Fleet/Phase. In the first two cases, he’s gonna harass slightly harder but we’re gonna sustain slightly harder too.

Minimac20002 votes

{quoted}

That’s actually the fix we need. Especially on top of Klepto removal.

Run Second Wind + Doran on almost any champ and the Kennen matchup sucks a lot less cuz you can shrug off a ton of his auto + Q damage.

Run Second Wind + Doran in preseason and he won’t really even bother you at all while also getting 500+ less gold than before.

He’s most likely going to shift to PtA/Elec or possibly Fleet/Phase. In the first two cases, he’s gonna harass slightly harder but we’re gonna sustain slightly harder too.

It's not enough, ranged champs need less inherent advantages top

Z3SIeeper1 votes

Was really talking about Kennen specifically. I agree.

Minimac20002 votes

{quoted}

It's being looked at for season 10.

No it's not, they are gonna change dshield slightly and leave everything else exactly how it is. Kinda like how they were gonna lower rune damage significantly and then they took like 15 dmg off of electrocute and comet and were like meh, that's enough

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

{quoted}

It's being looked at for season 10.

You can't seriously actually think that reducing Dorans Shield Passive Sustain for Ranged Champions is really gonna do something..

Most Lane Bullies/Mages or who ever else in Top Lane, never buy item's like Dorans Shield because they have an insane advantage. And they don't need to worry about sustain since most of them get that for free from Klepto procs (which grant potions occasionally), they will also most of the time start with a Corruption Pot and then wait till they get Biscuits so you won't ever be able to punish them for making any mistakes.

And most of the Melee Champs in Top Lane have abilities with high Cooldowns so you will be handicapped regardless, since those lane bullies/mages or who ever else will always have ways to disengage/trade and sustain themselves back up with anything that you drop their health to. And most of them don't need to worry about Cooldowns because their Core Item has Item components which already offer easier and better access to better stats and most importantly CDR.

After playing Top Lane for a while, I can see why the frustration of every person who plays Top is so high.

LightswornLance1 votes

The dorans shield keeps it the same for ranged, but its better for melee. Not enough of a buff though.

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

You can't seriously actually think that reducing Dorans Shield Passive Sustain for Ranged Champions is really gonna do something..

The regen is being kept the same for ranged. It's being increased for melee. For both ranged and melee, the time it takes to regen the health is being reduced (meaning the healing per second is increased). As for whether that's enough, I don't know.

PhearBunny2 votes

As a Nocturne top OTP, the only top laners that can bully me are... Urgot, Mordekaiser, and the occasional Fiora if she gets a significant enough lead on me.

In theory, Olaf would stomp me. But i havent seen an Olaf top once this entire season lol

Warmas3 votes

You got me there, well nocturne isn't the usual toplane champion, but I am honestly not so sure that you beat the above 3. Below plat for sure but above I don't think so.

PhearBunny2 votes

{quoted}

You got me there, well nocturne isn't the usual toplane champion, but I am honestly not so sure that you beat the above 3. Below plat for sure but above I don't think so.

zero issues vs Quinn/Kennen/Gnar. Quinn can kind of hold a very small CS lead lvl 1-5, but not a significant one. Just a couple. Once you hit 6, Quinn is a free kill every time your ult is up, and you're never a free kill to her. Even pre-6, if she gives you enough room to run her down, she will die.

Kennen is just a stale mate lane, noone can kill anyone without a jungler present.

Gnars even in plat+ are generally overconfident vs me as Noct top. Ranged Gnar is annoying, but you can pretty much ignore him and poke him down with Q and a few AA's periodically. Gnar players are under the impression they can duel Nocturne in their transformation form. They cant. Atleast not in lane phase. I just poke Gnar all lane long. Gnar transforms, i wait for his transformation to be a little over halfway overwith, and i all in him. Since he's transformed he's confident in dueling me. Realizes he cant, tries to disengage when Transformation falls off, i press R+Ignite, hes dead, pretty much every time. After a death or two they just start being really passive and CS farming with Q from a distance.

Nocturne outlasts all 3 of them with his ridiculous amounts of sustain(Passive/Bloodline/overheal/Biscuits+Corrupting potions/Timewarp tonic. Plus the nature of his kit kinda hard shoves the lane 24/7, so hes free to go grab honey yummies in the river pretty much whenever he feels like it. They CAN punish him, but they cant force him into a position where he's afraid to CS, or has to recall before lvl 6 and without atleast 1200gold.

Only champs ive ever encountered at plat that can force me into being passive and fearful of CSing are Mordekaiser, Urgot, Fiora(Only if shes lvl 6+ and has a lead). And post lvl 6 Nasus(i forgot about him, he stomps Nocturne. Worst case scenario matchup)

Ahri Baka2 votes

They can bully you in early levels only lmao , I've seen Darius top shitting on Lucian and Quinn in ranked yesterday.

LightswornLance5 votes

Anything happens in EUNE

Ahri Baka2 votes

{quoted}

Anything happens in EUNE

And how is that supposed to be an argument?

LightswornLance2 votes

How is your random anecdote an argument?

Ahri Baka2 votes

{quoted}

How is your random anecdote an argument?

It's not random , simply , pre 6 you can abuse melee top laners , they have to push , they get ganked , they die , at 6 you kill them , that's how it happened , but throwing random arguemnt saying " EUNE" makes no sense ,This is plat , at least don't say it when you are from NA , all servers are similar before D2.

LightswornLance1 votes

I'm saying your argument is nonsense so I threw out my own random argument. I can say I saw a Kassadin win lane to a Renekton the other day. And even if it was true it literally means nothing. It's an anecdote. Here's the thing, normally as a ranged top laner there is nothing a Darius or Garen or whatever immobile melee can do to you. But being that they are braindead ranged top laner players they find a way to get solo killed anyway. That post 6 kill only happens if the ranged top laner is completely 3head. Most ranged top laners have multiple failsafes like vlads pool + phase rush or ryzes root + speed boost + phase rush or kennens stuns + speed boost.

Ahri Baka1 votes

{quoted}

I'm saying your argument is nonsense so I threw out my own random argument. I can say I saw a Kassadin win lane to a Renekton the other day. And even if it was true it literally means nothing. It's an anecdote. Here's the thing, normally as a ranged top laner there is nothing a Darius or Garen or whatever immobile melee can do to you. But being that they are braindead ranged top laner players they find a way to get solo killed anyway. That post 6 kill only happens if the ranged top laner is completely 3head. Most ranged top laners have multiple failsafes like vlads pool + phase rush or ryzes root + speed boost + phase rush or kennens stuns + speed boost.

The only nonsense is those top lane mains crying about ranged top laners. Literally all what ranged top laners do is poking , they can sure be annoying , especially in early , but once you all in them , they die , they are fragile af , the examples I mentioned : Darius vs Lucian , our Darius died in lane twice to Lucian , 1 gank , he came back and started being able to 1v2 Enemy top laner and jungler. And after that Darius snowballed , it's just you guys love bitching. Then how about taking Ghost? the only one I'd say that can be annoying is Kennen for having no resources.

LightswornLance1 votes

I can tell you don't play top lane. So I'm Darius and instead of TP I take ghost, well now the enemy has TP advantage and if I get poked out of lane ( which will happen ) I'm fucked. Vlad also has no resources and are you really saying that we are able to all in and kill a full health ranged top laner through 100% movement speed boost + a 1.5 second stun + .5 second follow up stun? Or through slow resistance + speed boost + speed boost + root? Theres a reason the top five most picked top laners in worlds are 4 ranged and akali. Also lucian top isnt a normal ranged top laner and he has alot less failsafes than the more played ones.

Minimac20003 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Baka,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TEPByqsc,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-08T13:00:38.805+0000)

They can bully you in early levels only lmao , I've seen Darius top shitting on Lucian and Quinn in ranked yesterday.

And I saw a taric and shaco mid shitting on yasuo and zed yesterday. Just because it's possible to play against bad players doesn't mean these toxic bullshit ranged tops dont need some hard nerfs

BrokenRayquaza2 votes

The days of Lulu mid made me want to die

Tr4shB4NSYST3M3 votes

Morg mid, lulu mid, karma mid, zilean mid. All such absolutely boring uninteractive lanes. Oh and you wanted to roam? get ready to miss at least 2 waves and lose some turret plates.

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