Boards›Gameplay

Can we remove hidden MMR?

Warmas·1/24/2020, 10:46:39 PM·69 votes·16,299 views

I know Riot stated ranked changes for next year and testing later this year. One thing that they should start with is removing hidden MMR. You basically get a visible divisional rank but that's not your rank your hidden MMR is your rank that is what matters when matching against other players. By today they removed every way to inspect that rank in the past we could see/calculate it but everyone probably noticed how broken it got so they just removed the option to inspect it probably. The divisional system was introduced 9 YEARS ago. The hidden mmr was probably a leftover which made it easier to change to the new. For 9 years they added sutff on top of it breaking it more and more. One example, if you lose a game at 0 lp while you are protected, that's the worst. When you win you gain mmr, when you lose you lose mmr. But at 0 lp if you lose you don't lose rank only mmr. This makes your mmr shifted compared to your rank. The opposite is not true as the average mmr for higher tiers is higher that you get for placement wins by climbing there which again shift your mmr below your rank, FOR RANKING UP. Now if your mmr is lower than your rank the game automatically thinks you are at a higher rank than you should be so it will try to push you down, but remember your mmr never increases only decreases compared to your rank. The only mmr increase compared to rank I could only see with huge win streaks which becomes rare at higher elo/the harder it gets (even a challenger loses diamond games consistently). What lower mmr than rank causes is just a speculation as I said you can't measure it but I noticed that most of my lose streaks start after a 0 lp lose and you probably will get less lp for winning lose more lp for losing.

69 Comments

The thigh guy1/24/2020, 10:48:45 PM42 votes

But then riot would have to admit their matchmaking is bs.

z63XnLCMwX1/24/2020, 10:50:45 PM15 votes

Give us a hard mmr reset while we're at it. It's long enough and people don't want to grind a buttload of game to climb or drop.

Infernape1/25/2020, 12:37:24 AM8 votes

Honestly Riot should just display people's MMR. DotA does it just fine.

Then again if you could see yours and other people's MMR you could theoretically spot any discrepancy with the matchmaking system and call Riot out on uneven games.

Kai Guy1/24/2020, 11:46:45 PM7 votes

What's to stop them from being just like blizzard. Give a fake slower moving number for their Visible MMR and still use a hidden MMR?

I don't think you guys get that its pointless to see values unless you understand the relevance to MM. Riot would need to explain each and every variable and its generation to us. Otherwise just seeing a MM formula is useless. Example, StarCraft 2 https://imgur.com/a/e8e7tB1

The hidden MMR just makes it easier for Riot to hide folks who sink and create a Fake time to climb/sink Via LP limits. Its all pretty Bullshit.

MMR theory has been pretty well established from at least 2012. Kind of ridiculous to still see people behaving as if the issues of adapting Elo ratings make it unviable.

Gameplay issues are the biggest cause of gameplay problems. Which is why I keep trying to get boards users to understand the importance of better player behavior systems.

When teammates give up at the drop of a hat, even if gameplay had fantastic comeback mechanics or your team had that potential. Down to basically a 4 v 5 match cuz some one gave up. As I don't think all teams have recover potential nor are comeback mechanics THE ideal strategy. My personal bias is that I find folks who justify giving up to be by far the worst impact on my match quality.

I don't really care what justification they use the end result tends to be the same. Self fulfilling GG. In grossly simple math to highlight the impact. Call a behind player 0.5 rather then 1. AFK 0. Game with 2 folks who lose their role = -1 so its a 4v5. Game with 1 folk who lose their role and some one who gives up instantly if their team does not stomp all positions? 3.5 v 5.

Its a pretty easy issue to see, Frame it like this. If your beef with MM is made by behavior that happened After a lobby then your issues typically about behavior.

Some MM related issues exist, Duo impact and Autofill impact for example. But the OMG SHIT TEAMMATES tends to be related to the players behaviors in ways that MM wont solve as its post lobby issues.

But A large number of folks are not gonna like this. It takes away the modern day Elo hell excuses of "forced 50"% The only people who benefit from forced 50% are players who want to justify the gap between achieved rank and personal belief in their skill.

Its always less effort for Riot to just manipulate system values for the entire ladder. Turn a 32 into 16 for example.

Nalisai1/25/2020, 12:37:26 AM5 votes

It's REALLY friggin simple - just have ONE placement value. Your MMR IS your rank, or your rank is solely based on your MMR. Drop everyone by 100 LP end of season to 'reset'. Done. Why is this so hard?

You want to smurf? make a new account, cuz once you win one game, you just jumped an elo. Start over. Would fix boosting too because if you couldn't maintain your MMR you'd drop like a stone.

[edit] Just in case someone can't figure this part out - one win would bump you from Iron 4 to Iron 3. 2 wins to Iron 2. 5 wins to Iron 1. Best of five for promo to Bronze - less than 3/5 drops you to Iron 2. And it just gets harder per bracket. The only issue I'd have with this is that it kinda requires accurate matchmaking to begin with meaning smurfs would more likely be trolls than boosters.

Caitlyn FTW1/25/2020, 10:17:04 AM2 votes

You never expect a wall of text until it hits you.

######I just up voted for the title, I didn't read that wall of text.

XJ999999999999991/25/2020, 10:05:16 AM2 votes

cant read this, wall of text. please space out things.

True Garen1/26/2020, 5:34:39 AM1 votes

If MMR were revealed, then players would play for MMR, not Rank. It's a lot easier and more satisfying to see your MMR climb, and it's more precise than rank. It's just a number that goes up or down, so it doesn't encourage grinding.

Ranked system, either by design, or just a happy coincidence for Riot, takes most players half the Season to reach their level.

Riot believes that frustration is an important component of games.

MMR is like the popular vote, and Rank is like the electoral vote.

There are sites that give a consistent MMR value, and you can watch your own progress. I make a point of checking all of my opponents in any match (and also some of my teammates). I can see that whatismymmr.com is giving consistent values, for example. Probably op.gg will bring back MMR later this Season, as well.

(Also, the MMR of the players at the bottom division of any Rank tends to be higher than the MMR of the players in the highest division of Rank below. Bronze I has higher MMR than Silver IV and so on...)

Griseous1/26/2020, 7:45:34 PM1 votes

The game just wants everyone to lose and play more because winning feeds a chased high.

JRobin311/26/2020, 9:12:19 PM1 votes

I agree.

I think the problem is that rewards are conflated with rank. So the only way for players to know where they stand is to consult third party sites or to earn end of season rewards. And even then, players never truly know where they stand with respect to other players. It's very frustrating.

LordGeovanni1/26/2020, 9:20:55 PM1 votes

On one hand yay my team wont be silver and bronzes vs golds and plats on the other hand i got easy to tilt silvers and bronzes and golds on my team

The Bad Touch2/1/2020, 9:43:40 PM1 votes

Yeh MMR is just bullshit. This account was S1 last season, won 9/10 this season for placements and was placed Bronze 1... Most of my games are against G4/G3 last season who are S2 /S1 this season, with random B2 to S3's mixed in. It's a cluster fuck of "whoever gets the worst feeder loses.

If the account is Silver 4.... Then I should be playing people in Silver 4.... simple as that. Stop with the resets and the hidden MMR bullshit. I don't have time to grind out an extra 100 games every season.

Don't even get me started on Due queue MMR matching. I duo a good bit with a buddy of mine who is new and only moved from Iron to Bronze this season. On this S4 account and his B3 account we normally get matched with people who were high silver to low gold last season. Good example of the the MMR reset just drives new players away. How is a new player who is just now learning the game supposed to win a solo lane against a guy who was Gold last season compared to his Iron and now Bronzeness?