Wanna know why I don't like the idea of buffing marksmen early?

Ralanr·Feb 3, 2017·114 votes·4,256 views

Because when the meta eventually slows down, we're going to be dealing with marksmen that seemingly have no weak point in the game.

105 Comments

EedatFeb 3, 201713 votes

If they're going lethality builds, they're straight up sacrificing late game strength. Lethality does not scale as well as crit on any marksmen that isn't MF. So there you have it. A weak point

RalanrFeb 3, 20176 votes

Lee Sin has shit late game scaling but can still burst the adc with his combo.

Understand the relation here?

AhristocatsFeb 3, 201711 votes

That doesn't make sens, lethality adc can't kill tanks and if you can't kill tanks you're going to have problems in late game

lee sin doesn't give a shit about tanks, adcs do

RalanrFeb 3, 20174 votes

This isn't related to tanks. This is about having enough damage to do the job despite scaling poorly.

I have yet to fight a full lethality adc. So I am willing to be proven wrong and see their weak late. Until then I do not really trust Riot in balancing out the adc power curve and am expressing my concern on it.

Why? I'm also bored.

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20176 votes

they CAN'T do their job if they go for lethality

lethality is all about poking in mid game and destroying squishies, you can't kill tanks as adcs in late game if you go for lethality

you also can't siege due to poor attack speed

RalanrFeb 3, 201714 votes

The ones who build lethality don't really give a shit about attack speed because they are either AD casters or Jhin. They have ways to increase their dps in short fights or they rely more on abilities anyway.

And if you want to balance those marksmen around it, fine. Just change ER into a non crit item because it's clearly not doing its job in helping AD caster marksmen.

Xela SyabFeb 4, 20171 votes

The problem comes down to the support meta since Zyra Velkoz Malzahar are seen so much bot lane only caster adcs Lucian Jinx Ashe Varus Sivir MissFortune are viable in those lanes so they can poke and harass and not get bursted down, adcs stop thinking about the late game if they are getting killed by a support. I think item 3098 needs nerfs or changes (where it can proc only on spell casts or autos and not dots or minions and where it can proc on heals and shields) because it gives good gold value for poke/dot mages that or just lower the gold proc to 12 or lower so it takes these mages longer to hit their powerspikes item 3116 item 3151 that or hit Rylais again with a reciepe change so it has item 3114 item 1052 item 3801 . Another issue is the damn tank/assassin meta, all these mages have some form of sustained dps with %hp damage that helps them deal with tanks, but since these are taken so much we have assassins in 2 or more roles in each game.

VeltoxFeb 4, 20172 votes

And again you nerf support itemisation not considering supports like Bard Sona We reached a point where we need to restrict items for certain champions.

Xela SyabFeb 4, 20171 votes

I wasn't just suggesting nerfing supports, weird you guys got that from wall of text. I'm saying that changes need to be made to spell thief so bot lane isn't dominated by mages. Yes I guess it would be a nerf but I think mages getting all spellthief procs from 1 ability or passive makes it unfair to other supports that have to auto/spell combo to get the same gold value. That's why I was suggesting heals and shields to give procs. I'm a support main and it's way easier to carry a game as Malzahar with free passive gold and damage than Janna having to keep an adc alive through a viscous poke laning phase and having mid lane and jungle diving you. If you play games comparing item 3301 item 3302 and item 3303 you're usually at a gold discrepancy unless you have more assists or kills than your opponent and that's still rare. I've had so many games where I win, have more assists and better kda than my support opponent but I have 200-1000 gold deficiency because of spell thief. It's also one of the reasons Sona has a >50% winrate in gold plus and Bard is pretty strong on the competitive scene. I think another way of going about it would be buffing item 3302 item 3301 to give more gold through their procs.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 3, 20173 votes

Turrets have armor and lethality reduces that so they hit the turrets hard with lethality builds. Also they're turrets so its not like it takes great amounts of attack speed to take them down fast.

The Yetii RiderFeb 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TAuOaEPj,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T17:41:09.479+0000)

they CAN'T do their job if they go for lethality

lethality is all about poking in mid game and destroying squishies, you can't kill tanks as adcs in late game if you go for lethality

you also can't siege due to poor attack speed

Lethality affects turrets. You can siege just fine with an AS steroid like Ashe or MF and lethality.

macromiteFeb 4, 20171 votes

adc could kill a proper tank without losing lategame with a vampiric and at least three daggers. so long as it is a normal tank that like most tanks did not itemize to specifically fuck the adc.\

IT would take more than the half second it takes with a crit build. but to be fair that is the fucking point of a tank isn't it.

JihyobdaFeb 4, 20171 votes

Tank builds are made to fuck the adc in the mid game, Thornmail, Tabi and Randuin's are specifically made to counter ADCs, and on top of that they have shields and base damage that make no fucking sense and they simply kills the adc by outhealthing them

nice tableFeb 3, 20177 votes

neh adcs that go lethality still kill tanks just fine in the late game.

dunder killFeb 3, 20172 votes

No they don't. Crit outscales lethality by a very large margin when you're taking about tank busting

LordGeovanniFeb 3, 20174 votes

out scaleing one damage type and dealing with tanks dont nessicarily matter to each other. crit carries 2-3 shot tanks and letality carries 3-4 shot tanks in the same amount of time by useing spells in between attacks many of which have heavy slows on them to go with their damage

EedatFeb 3, 20176 votes

crit carries 2-3 shot tanks and letality carries 3-4 shot tanks in the same amount of time

What game are you talking about? Because it's not league of legends

VenomarFeb 3, 20173 votes

They're using hyperbole, but you know this. Exaggeration aside, their point stands. While crit and attack speed and a LW melt tanks late game and ARE better than lethality, lethality based MM still do a good enough job of tank busting.

I'll add AD casters that can abuse lethality pretty much all have a way of either hitting the whole team (MF ult, Twitch ult) or hammering the back line beyond the frontline (Jhins crit speed bonus and 4th shot chunk damage and W/R, Varus Q) and don't really need to bust through tanks to be effective.

nice tableFeb 3, 20176 votes

i mean yeah obviously crit outscales lethality but once the adc builds a last whisper the tanks melt either way.

JihyobdaFeb 4, 20171 votes

Only Mf can, the other usually don't bother try killing them

dunder killFeb 3, 201744 votes

Almost EVERYONE can burst down a squishy.

That's why they're called squishies

MelledoneusFeb 4, 20173 votes

Squeesh.

Maximum MordeFeb 3, 201713 votes

Weak is relative. Being killed in 3 autos vs 4. Not much different from the receiving end.

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TAuOaEPj,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-02-03T17:32:33.713+0000)

Weak is relative. Being killed in 3 autos vs 4. Not much different from the receiving end.

it is when one champion is melee and one is ranged. melee does not fight ranged. ranged takes towers. melee fights ranged. ranged hides behind tanks kills melees. then kills nexus.

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 3, 20173 votes

{quoted}

If they're going lethality builds, they're straight up sacrificing late game strength. Lethality does not scale as well as crit on any marksmen that isn't MF. So there you have it. A weak point

jhin scales okay with lethality because he has no increased as. he doesn't care wtf he has as long as he has the ad for it. and since riot was a little bit stupid enough to add big flat scaling and little ratios on crit and as. lethality is probably better on him even late game as long as he gets LDR.

HawkefireFeb 3, 20173 votes

Indeed they sacrifice late game strength, but it isn't really that much of a sacrifice. Just because lethality isn't as strong as crit lategame, doesn't mean that it isn't a good build to have lategame.

RacoonHunterFeb 4, 20172 votes

Actually they can scale into the late game.. if it even GETS there.. most lethality ADCs are just getting so far ahead early that it doesn't matter at what point the games at, they will never fall off..

For instance, you have your LW item +3 lethality items.. that's not only ignoring 35% of armor, but after that ignoring flat armor.. so say a tank has 250 armor.

LW knocks it down to roughly 162.5 armor.. then you have 3 lethatlity which is about 80 armor on top of that..

so 162.5 becomes 82.5 armor roughly at "late game" it's still some armor, but it's not the 250+ armor or the 162.5 from just a LW item..

so this whole "lethality ADCS don't scale into the late game' is bullshit. when they changed Lethality to help the assassins, they basically pigenholed certain mm into pretty much "set builds" if they want to even have a chance to climb in season 7.

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20178 votes

increasing a bit the early game strength won't make them suddenly good in early game, just better

but it doesn't matter, because they don't need anything right now

RalanrFeb 3, 20175 votes

Eh, it's more of a knee jerk reaction of mine than anything else.

Like fighting a Caitlyn.

AhristocatsFeb 3, 20174 votes

honestly i don't know what happened but i no longer find cait op, i played jhin like 20 times in a row and i suddenly didn't any have any problems against cait, i'm playing with a master tier sona main and we can lane perfectly against cait

RalanrFeb 3, 201712 votes

Or you got used to fighting Cait.

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 4, 20171 votes

The Argument about Caitlyn is funny. She has ALWAYS been this way. It's not like she's suddenly become OP because of some kind of massive buff or meta shift. She's just capable of staying alive more then others due to her high range, and that's suddenly an issue now that every other ADC kinda sucks in regards to safety.

RalanrFeb 4, 20172 votes

Her traps weren't that annoying before.

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 4, 20173 votes

Her traps have always been annoying, she's always been putting them behind towers.Nothing has changed. The DPS Buff was added in patch 5.22, but it was compensated with removing a lot of base stats. Caitlyn literally went unnoticed all of season 6, I don't know what happened between then and now that suddenly has Caitlyn on people's hit list.
I don't understand what changed that suddenly made her seem so OP too people? She's always, ALWAYS been a long range lane bully with a tonne objective control.

I'm not saying she's not OP or don't complain, I just honestly don't get why she's SUDDENLY an issue by doing something she's been doing for literally years now.

Big LincolnFeb 3, 201712 votes

even if that did happen they should get their late games slightly toned down to compensate

cough mf

dunder killFeb 3, 20172 votes

You're pointing at one champion when the thread is about ALL marksmen. Yeah, MF is overturned. That doesnt't mean you blanket the entire class because of a single champion.

Big LincolnFeb 3, 201710 votes

If a late game class gets a stronger early game then their late game needs to be nerfed or they'll become mandatory again like they've been for the last 6 seasons

idk about you but I've had enough of range lane bullies also hyperscaling

dunder killFeb 3, 20173 votes

Their late game IS getting nerfed if they build a mid-game build.

Lethality is good mid, but trash late. Crit is trash mid, but good late.

Tada! Exactly what you asked for

LordGeovanniFeb 3, 20174 votes

building for mid when you can change builds at any point in the game is not a nerf.

EedatFeb 3, 20174 votes

Yeah man because selling your items and losing thousands of gold makes perfect sense to do in the middle of a game. Good argument you got there

LordGeovanniFeb 3, 20174 votes

or you could stop building mid game builds when mid game comes around build late game build and when you reach 6 items and nobody has things to build or more than likely is still on their 4th item you can still buy late game items and be finished around the same time they are because you can still get stronger because you are on a class that is never in danger but gets spoon fed all the kills.

GayFluffyUnicornFeb 3, 20177 votes

Yeah we conveniently forget how broken adcs were the entire season 6 and where all those concerns come from. Heck lethality is already good enough to get varus out of the crypt and into the battlefield. Jhin is once again even more broken than before. MF is overpowered anyways. Lucian is still snowball dependent.

paisyFeb 3, 20177 votes

Why not buff their early game and nerf their late?

notice me Sin piFeb 3, 20177 votes

the whole point of having an adc in a team comp is due to the late game damage they can provide. Nerfing their late game would just make them completely unviable

Teridax68Feb 3, 201725 votes

If that is true, then the entire marksman class needs an overhaul. If the only competitive reason for picking a marksman is because you want a strong late-game champion, then that means the marksman's contributions in range, teamfight DPS and pushing power are all failing to make them relevant, and their only saving grace is an artificially induced power curve. There are many more champions in the game that are specifically designed to be late-game damage carries, namely Cassiopeia, Karthus, Master Yi, Yasuo, etc., yet even those champions are being overshadowed by marksmen, simply because the latter are assumed to be carries by default.

I also think the idea of marksmen being defined primarily by their late-game status is an assumption worth testing, as I don't think it's true at all. We've had heavily early-focused marksmen like Graves, Kindred and Lucian dominate for quite some time, and beyond that, League has never been in a state where marksmen could be considered non-essential, even when the class was at its weakest. In a game where top, mid and jungle freely exchange between assassins, fighters, mages and tanks, the fact that a single non-marksman in the bot lane carry position can draw so much attention is concerning. We're used to seeing entire classes practically drop out of the game for months on end, and each match will inevitably require each team giving up on at least one of the roster's six classes, but we're still really scared of the mere possibility of marksmen not being on every team. I think that's a double standard that needs to be addressed, and because of this I also think we could afford to have marksmen knocked out of their designated carry position, and start having individually-defined power curves just like any other champion.

DubshokaFeb 4, 20172 votes

This is a rational and well-worded post. Upvote for you.

paisyFeb 3, 20175 votes

I just want them to 3 shot squishies instead of 2 shot

macromiteFeb 4, 20173 votes

tell that to adc players, that think the point of having an adc is having an all game uncounterable source of burst level damage without cooldowns. and riot for trying to make it a reality

JihyobdaFeb 4, 20171 votes

I think I can prove you wrong in many ways.

Marksmen are not burst oriented, they're DPS souces.

ADC players just say that Marksmen lack agency in the early game and they can't reach the late game point since the game is so snowbally.

Riot fucking hates ADCs because it's a role that has no variety and i can prove that patch note over patch note from preseason 6 to now (e.g. Nerfing armor pen and buffing assassins and tanks at the same time in last preseason)

macromiteFeb 5, 20171 votes

I'll make a few easy to follow points. ~~I mean I hope they are easy to follow I don't know you~~

Point 1 what you said

Marksmen are not burst oriented, they're DPS sources.

what I said

burst level damage without cooldowns.

a mix of words, in simplest order. The DPS, is BURST.

and Proof, Draven as my chosen example of adc for this point does on average 1906 in 3 seconds at 3 items Talon as my chosen example of burst damage source does 2157 in a full rotation at 3 items

to explain the numbers so they aren't just thrown in. Both were calculated with first three non boot items shown in one of their respective champion.gg builds, were compared at level 12, with correct skill ordering, and draven only used auto attacks in my calculations.

Or rather simply. draven without using buttons past hitting q and right clicking can almost match the damage of an assassin in a comparable amount of time.

Point 2 What you said

Riot fucking hates ADCs

what I said (Slightly edited for readability purposes)

tell that to riot for trying to make it a reality

No word mix, we are directly opposed in viewpoint here. My point is that Riot is actively keeping adc's meta.

and Proof. when they buffed assassins they also massively boosted the power of supports, who in turn could use that to more easily peel assassins, as well as boosting tanks, which are naturally counters to assassins and directly countered by marksmen. and the buffs they gave to tanks did not help them deal with marksmen. Cotc has too long of a cooldown to be used to deal with the incredible damage marksmen deal always.