substitute some of kog'maw's damage for mobility

NodirjonSattarov·Feb 5, 2017·3 votes·612 views

can't do the most damage if im dead all the time :^)

kog'maw does do a lot of damage on paper but the amount of mobility in the game, 325 MS and a negligible slow isnt cutting it

22 Comments

nm1010Feb 5, 20172 votes

He absolutely doesn't need the buff, but his e thematically fits something that could have grounded put on it.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 5, 20171 votes

You didn't explain why he doesn't need the buff. Essentially you said "no" but didn't explain why.

The reason why this was brought to my attention was because lethality got buffed Kog'Maw now suffers 2 disadvantages. 1) Lethality is more of an early game item that kills squishies. Kog'Maw suffers tremendously in the early game but even more so vs lethality users. 2) Though the MS wasn't buffed on lethality it's being picked up more post patch 7.2 by majority of ADCs (Jhin, Varus, MF, Lucian, etc.). Those champions already have some sort of move speed steroids or dashes (in Varus's case he has an AoE slow and a root). These abilities make it very easy to jump on Kog'Maw and even easier with the flat MS/actives lethality items provide.

nm1010Feb 5, 20172 votes

Its pretty straight forward, as you said yourself we are in a bad meta for kog'maw yet he is performing perfectly fine in high elo.

https://i.gyazo.com/84d6b82dbe00f934dacff2cf2f365c2e.png

Edit: Just for clarification that popularity is the % of the time he goes adc over other roles.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 5, 20171 votes

The data neglects to show play rate. I know the play rate by the back of my hand though. It's been fairly consistent for 4 patches now. 1.3% is hardly anything to justify that win rate. The only people who play Kog'Maw are his mains and OTPs (as well as scripters). That being said the win rate is heavily skewed.

nm1010Feb 5, 20172 votes

Yeah yeah I've heard it many times before on taliyah, sol, ziggs, etc. I suggest you come to terms with the fact he is more than likely fine as a champion.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 5, 20171 votes

Have you played Kog'Maw? You haven't so how can you say that he's "more than likely fine as a champion"? I disproved your claim yet you have the audacity to suggest I get over it.

nm1010Feb 5, 20172 votes

I can objectively look at a champion and see more than they are "op" or "up", Koggles has clearly been doing fine for months now. You didn't disprove anything, you used a common tactic on these boards to suggest low play rate champions somehow are immune to statistical analysis. That many others have used and then eaten their words when a champ becomes meta a month or two later with no changes.

He follows a healthy winrate curve for a skill based champion of lower winrates at lower elos with higher winrates going into higher elos. He rewards good positioning and good teamwork, as I said if you can't accept the fact that you underperform on your main champion you will never get better on him.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 5, 20171 votes

Last season I played 500 games on Kog'Maw with a 54% win rate which I think is relatively good. Several things have changed since then (revert, itemization changes, meta changes, more aggressive supports, etc.)

He rewards good positioning and good teamwork

This pertains to any champion in the game.

nm1010Feb 5, 20172 votes

I mean it isn't like the reworked kog'maw wasn't a much higher winrate (not to mention much easier to play since you just a clicked after 2-3 items).

Lets not be pedantic, it doesn't make for anything resembling a good discussion.

RebonackFeb 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Yeah yeah I've heard it many times before on taliyah, sol, ziggs, etc. I suggest you come to terms with the fact he is more than likely fine as a champion.

There's a vast difference between 'Undertuned' which Kog isn't and 'Poorly cobbled together kit' which Kog has in spades. This board tends to get blinders on any time questions of champion design come up (which this topic is about) and start frothing about mechanical balance instead (which this topic isn't about).

Regardless of Kog's tuning, his kit is a mess. The only time he's ever a desirable pick is when he's disgustingly over-tuned, which is a direct consequence of his Kit providing damage and literally nothing else. And that is, generally speaking, a bad sign.

Personally, I don't think mobility would be the way to go on Kog. Sure, something like removing the damage on his E and making it so it speed boosts Kog and slows enemy units would be handy, but I still feel like being immobile should be one of Kog's weaknesses. Given the choice, I would rather see Kog go in the exact opposite direction. Keep the immobility and lack of CC, but give him tools to eat some damage and continue being a threat. Basically, make Koggers the Marksmen/Juggernaut to counter-point Graves being the Marksmen/Diver.

We've already got Twitch doing the whole 'nothing but squish 'n damage' thing, and his design if far more compelling for filling that fantasy if play rates are anything to go by.

nm1010Feb 5, 20172 votes

Marksmen/Juggernaut sounds like a balancing nightmare, and again you are making arguments I've heard before about other champions. I am quite frankly not going to lay out exactly why giving Kog'maw a grounded effect (what this started on) is a poor choice for a champion that is doing fine.

Could he use some sort of update though? Probably, they tried once and failed so that is pretty indicative that his kit is indeed outdated.

RebonackFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen/Juggernaut sounds like a balancing nightmare, and again you are making arguments I've heard before about other champions. I am quite frankly not going to lay out exactly why giving Kog'maw a grounded effect (what this started on) is a poor choice for a champion that is doing fine.

Could he use some sort of update though? Probably, they tried once and failed so that is pretty indicative that his kit is indeed outdated.

Totally immobile dude with high damage, good range, and moderate durability wouldn't be particularly difficult to work with. There are already a fair number of Mages who fit that description. This would obviously be some VGU level stuff, so I would expect either Kog's range or his damage to take a hit to allow for that durability boost. Of the two, the range would probably be the thing to hit since it has already proven a thorn in Riot's side (see: repeated R nerfs and the ye olde W range nerf).

Twitch already does the super long range, super high damage hyper-carry thing better than Kog AND in a more compelling fashion. We don't need two Marksmen filling the same niche.

nm1010Feb 5, 20171 votes

What you described is basically reworked Kog'maw with slightly less range and more durability which was a balancing nightmare (partly due to toxic interactions with on hit and partly due to scripting issues). Could you specify what mages? Because off the top of my head I see Ryze who is a nightmare to balance at high elo while he sucks in low elo. He is rocking a 12% banrate in dia+ while he has a 45% winrate (this is POST nerfs), that is how toxic he is. No one wants him in the game even if he has a very low winrate.

RebonackFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What you described is basically reworked Kog'maw with slightly less range and more durability which was a balancing nightmare (partly due to toxic interactions with on hit and partly due to scripting issues). Could you specify what mages? Because off the top of my head I see who is a nightmare to balance at high elo while he sucks in low elo. He is rocking a 12% banrate in dia+ while he has a 45% winrate (this is POST nerfs), that is how toxic he is. No one wants him in the game even if he has a very low winrate.

I didn't say anything about bringing back his double attack speed thing. While there are examples of ability types that scale of OnHit that could be applied to a remade Kog (Shy's Q mechanics, for example) I don't think that would be necessary. Kog would just need incentives in his kit to stick around as long as possible. Turning his Q back into a short range targeted nuke with a stacking resist shred and low cooldown could serve that goal, for example.

And when I think moderately durable medium range Mages, the first ones that come to mind are Annie Swain Morgana Orianna and yes of course Ryze . They generally have less range (or less damage) than many of the pokier champs and they all have tools for mitigating or shrugging off some degree of damage.

nm1010Feb 5, 20171 votes

I didn't say anything about bringing back his double attack speed thing.

Neither did I, I just said that his previous iteration matched the description of marksmen/juggernaut. High damage, ranged, with little to no cc/mobility, and he could build item 3053 which allowed him to kill basically anyone who didn't have cc + burst (or multiple people jumping on him) before they could finish him off.

And when I think moderately durable medium range Mages, the first ones that come to mind are and yes of course .

You said high damage + durable + good range.

Totally immobile dude with high damage, good range, and moderate durability wouldn't be particularly difficult to work with. There are already a fair number of Mages who fit that description.

Considering consistent damage is a quality of both juggernauts and marksmen we eliminate your burst damage choices Annie Morgana . Next your survivability choice of Orianna is pretty questionable, especially when you factor in her above average range and poke pattern.

So we are left with Swain and Ryze , Swain is almost an ideal ap juggernaut. He has reasonably damage, low range, high survivability, so what makes him not quite a juggernaut? Well it is quite simple he has too much cc and aoe damage, if Riot wanted him to be a juggernaut they would remove one of his two cc and give him higher damage to be a major AoE threat in teamfights. As it stands he is a threat, but he is no illaoi or darius that will roll over an entire teamfight within seconds if left unchecked.

And so we are back to Ryze the reason I brought him up was simply because he has tankiness from his shield combo that requires him to lower his cc duration. He has cc at the expense of his shield, he has AoE at the expense of burst time, and he has the ability to nuke a single target almost immediately at the expense of the other things. This seems healthy when you look at it due to the trade offs in his kit, but when you give someone like this the safety of even some range (and his ult) a good ryze can excel at almost any part of the game he wants whether that be peeling with e w, getting shield and tankiness with w e q, etc.

I'm not saying something like this couldn't work (Swain is damn close) but it is a nightmare of a champion with even a slight degree of too much power given to them.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 5, 20171 votes

Suppose Kog'Maw doesn't receive any mobility I would 100% be okay with more defenses (which is what you're proposing). That way the game doesn't feel like "I'm going to get shit on so hard in this lane".

RebonackFeb 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T937m2v0,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2017-02-05T03:34:07.869+0000)

Suppose Kog'Maw doesn't receive any mobility I would 100% be okay with more defenses (which is what you're proposing). That way the game doesn't feel like "I'm going to get shit on so hard in this lane".

It would honestly all depend on how Riot approaches it. If we're sticking to the whole mid-game monster thing, I think going a sustain-focused option in lane would probably be the most viable route. That would allow Kog to survive the lane phase without actually being a bully. Then when mid game rolls around and he's sitting on item 3047 item 3091 things start getting scary for his opponents.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 5, 20172 votes

That's kinda his playstyle. Immobile machinegun.

Would really be changing his identity to change it.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 5, 20171 votes

I thought his identity was a tank killer? or an artillery ADC? or mixed damage dealer? or attack speed-late game hyper carry? do you see where I'm going with this?

Asayake 5150glowFeb 5, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T937m2v0,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-02-05T01:48:32.207+0000)

I thought his identity was a tank killer? or an artillery ADC? or mixed damage dealer? or attack speed-late game hyper carry? do you see where I'm going with this?

Yeah, I do.

Kog has a hell of a ton of themes, doesn't he?

...

Yeah I dunno.

I guess it can be separated into two main identities, immobile machinegun which shreds everything in it's path at an nearly equal (and fast) rate, be it super tanky or squishy, or a tank destroyer with high range and also has enough dps to be a threat to squishies.

Honestly I'd prefer the second one, because machinegun is not fun for skirmishers who can't outplay his incredible (if he were made into a machinegun, that is) dps and I'm a skirmisher main, and it'd also be more fun for the Kog player rather than right click and kite as best you can while being a machinegun. However, Ezreal's one of my most hated ADC's due to his mobility, so...

I guess it'd be a good idea for Kog to have more mobility.

Meep ManFeb 5, 20172 votes

Oh god, please no. An Artillery Cannon with mobility. Sounds like an absolute nightmare to balance and play against. I would rather Kog'Maw be rewarded more for dealing damage than give him mobility.

Not to mention Kog'Maw is NOT struggling right now.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 5, 20171 votes

Is Kog'Maw an artillery cannon? In what way? He seems to have so many identities that people forget what he's like. Is he supposed to be a tank killer? Is he supposed to be a caster-ADC (Triforce user)? Is he supposed to do a lot of mixed damage? Is he supposed to have a brilliant late game?

Have you played Kog'Maw recently? Have you played against a Kog'Maw? I honestly don't think you have especially in the current meta.