Long post: We need better ap items in the support role (featuring Ivern)

chipndip1··5 votes·1,144 views

I was watching RedMercy's vid about champs that are strong this patch, and (of course) Ivern showed up. In his vid he was talking about how Ivern's clear speed allows him to edge up on his jungling opponent rather easily (can confirm that if you can do a good clear unmolested, you can be the highest leveled champ in the game for a good few minutes). Then he gets to the build, and that's when I remember this topic that I was trying to convey for some time now:

Ivern : item 1414 item 3116 item 3107 item 3026 item 3190 item 3158

Notice how we got a mix of ap to put a bit of VALUE INTO HIS SCALINGS, then there's some support items? This is basically what I've been parroting off every time I make a post like this. You aren't going to find a good spot for half these mage supports balance-wise if they aren't encouraged to build the very thing they're designed to need.

Hold the phone, though...we could just build Rylai's like Ivern does, right? Possible, but not optimal, since Ivern has his own cash flow while dedicated supports don't. Where Ivern can just buy a few mid lane items and top off with support ones, someone in the support role will spend a good half the game or more trying to build one 3.2k gold item after buying essentials. That or they say "fuck you" to vision and skip it to buy those types of things earlier.

Like, I've been saying it on repeat: The game environment doesn't promote building what mage supports want to build, unlike tank supports, yet mage supports have a ton of space carved out in their kits for it. You can't enhance Janna's passive or her E's bonus ad without ap. You can't boost Lulu's attack speed buff without ap. You can't increase the potency of Sona's slow or damage reduction without it either. And, yes, some supports or champions that can support actually would like to do a bit of damage. Forcing everyone to play like a Warden is making the role extremely dry. Even Riot supports the notion of having supports that are meant to hurt, hence why Zyra and Brand have been pushed more and more as legitimate support options.

"But MID LANERS TOOK FQC!!"

Yeah, when it had 150% mana regen by itself and a huge slow on a low cool down that would scout and cc for free. No one took that shit because it gave 50 ap quickly. They took it because we don't have mana pots and this one item would make mana a complete non-issue even by the time you simply got Frostfang. To boot, it'd gen like 2k gold over the course of a match. If 50 ap on a support item is really that big a deal, why didn't they nerf its ap or remove it? They nerfed its mana regen by 50% and hit its active, not its ap.

"BUT DAMAGE IS OBNOXIOUS! YOU GUYS DON'T GET TO DO DAMAGE!"

  • Any rpg, which this game borrows heavily from, has a whole slew of different classes and abilities, and some of those classes can be supportive in an aggressive or defensive manner.

  • Assuming someone wanted to build FQC first item, if they managed to build a Codex, you're gonna feel that next spell pretty damn well anyway. It's not like we're gonna have 2 full build items by the time laning's over, and at that point one to two items that give 40 - 60 ap a piece isn't going to make Lulu chunk you for 50% of your health in one Q.

So now that that's out of the way, I'm here calling for a real effort to make more ap items tailored for the support budget, especially since Banner had its ap removed so it could be a good purchase on more champs (I don't really think that worked). I'd also like to say that we need a rework of Zeke's so that whatever it does isn't windowed to 6 seconds of clearing minions with your crit animation, but that's for another thread.

16 Comments

Fairyfleur2 votes

I would very much like to see more ap support items, especially for Sona .

Done252 votes

I want an Unholy Grail with 80~120 AP and a higher cap on the passive. I don't care if I have to pay 3k for it. I just want it to be GOOD.

Throw out that useless MR if you need to. Sona doesn't want MR, she wants raw AP to boost her utility.

chipndip12 votes

I think I had this conversation with you before, but incase you're someone different, the point is that supports can't afford the shit that Ivern can. There needs to be more ap support items within a support's budget range, which is usually less than 2.9k.

If simply itemization was the issue, rather than itemization + cost, many mage supports would just go on ahead buying a Luden's/Rylai's/Cap while doing their normal business. However, by doing this, you set your build back by a mile.

So yeah, no support oriented item should be 3k+ to buy.

Done252 votes

I call bullshit on "supports have no gold."

You want money? Equip yellow+quint gold runes, buy an Eye of the Oasis, use the Bandit mastery, and make sure to maximize assists during team fights. You should be getting AT LEAST 10k gold by 40 min. Tbh I consider it a bad game if I don't have 10k by 30 min.

But you know what? It doesn't matter. It's not about how many items you have, it's about how GOOD they are.

Simply put, I'd rather have one strong 120 AP item over two weak 60 AP items.

As for itemization, I don't want "AP items". I want AP items that are tailored for supports. Such as Unholy Grail's healing over Morello's anti-healing.

Offensive mages want raw mana for short brutal fights. Supports want mana regen for sustained support ability.

chipndip14 votes

Alright, now I remember you. And due to how thick-headed you are on this topic, I'ma keep this brief:

  • If you think it's bad to not have 10k gold by 30 minutes, you consider yourself garbage tier, period. In your games, you average either at 10k or barely more than that on basically everyone you play as support.

  • How much IS 10k in a game? Well, if EotW is 2.2k, and the cheap boots are .9k, which goes to 3.1k, you got like 6.9k gold left after the essentials (boots + vision). With this given, you have enough to buy two of those 3.2k gold items throughout the course of an entire game...maybe a little tome after that. However, with actual sup items, on 6.9k, you get get three fully built items. If you consider Abyssal, then it's like 2 and a half. Regardless, is it HONESTLY that smart in your mind to spend all game building one, possibly two, items? ALL GAME? When you could buy like 3 with varying actives and passives instead?

Point is that your logic is backwards. You need things you can afford, not just big numbers. Supports aren't even meant to tote huge numbers, but they ARE meant to have some numbers. It's like how tank supports get tank items that give a good 60 or so in defenses or some health, but they usually don't have HP and defenses on one item. Thus, they get tanky, but not that tanky. Mage sups should get some ap, even if it isn't as much as the mid laner. That's. The. Point.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Alright, now I remember you. And due to how thick-headed you are on this topic, I'ma keep this brief:

  • If you think it's bad to not have 10k gold by 30 minutes, you consider yourself garbage tier, period. In your games, you average either at 10k or barely more than that on basically everyone you play as support.

  • How much IS 10k in a game? Well, if EotW is 2.2k, and the cheap boots are .9k, which goes to 3.1k, you got like 6.9k gold left after the essentials (boots + vision). With this given, you have enough to buy two of those 3.2k gold items throughout the course of an entire game...maybe a little tome after that. However, with actual sup items, on 6.9k, you get get three fully built items. If you consider Abyssal, then it's like 2 and a half. Regardless, is it HONESTLY that smart in your mind to spend all game building one, possibly two, items? ALL GAME? When you could buy like 3 with varying actives and passives instead?

Point is that your logic is backwards. You need things you can afford, not just big numbers. Supports aren't even meant to tote huge numbers, but they ARE meant to have some numbers. It's like how tank supports get tank items that give a good 60 or so in defenses or some health, but they usually don't have HP and defenses on one item. Thus, they get tanky, but not that tanky. Mage sups should get some ap, even if it isn't as much as the mid laner. That's. The. Point.

THANK YOU! Finally someone else who agrees with me. I have been saying this for years now but i get downvoted into oblivion for god knows what reason.

Right now, all we have are. item 3174, item 3504, and... item 3050 ? ;-; item 2301 AP is laughable but still more optimal than item 3092 unless you wanna give your team the middle finger and not get item 2049 :(

chipndip12 votes

I don't know what sin support mages have committed, but it's time to forgive.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

I think what it is is that they committed the sin of going into sololanes.

I remember doing Lulu Mid and Soraka Top WAY before it became popular and once it DID, and lulu got nerf'd into oblivion, I vowed never doing it again because it made playing lulu as support terrible. :(

Riot is scared to see them strong and clearly so are other players, despite the fact that no one bats an eye when any tank or utility support goes into a solo lanes...except when Ali could Jungle anyway.

chipndip11 votes

But that isn't an itemization issue. That's a different issue entirely.

Lulu's base kit was strong enough to go into solo lanes. When they finally got her from dominating solo lanes, her support lane became miserable. She can't peel better than Janna and Nami can and it's not like her offensive capabilities are that strong anymore. She needs a good middle ground...something this game lacks as a whole, but no one wants to fix.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

But that isn't an itemization issue. That's a different issue entirely.

Lulu's base kit was strong enough to go into solo lanes. When they finally got her from dominating solo lanes, her support lane became miserable. She can't peel better than Janna and Nami can and it's not like her offensive capabilities are that strong anymore. She needs a good middle ground...something this game lacks as a whole, but no one wants to fix.

Lulu's strength isn't peel or damage. It's her ability to bolster her teamates;' abilities via her buffs and neutralist the enemies with her Debuffs.

The only thing Lulu really needs right now imo that isn't an issue with all the AP supports is a more effective utility based application for her passive, as now it is just a sprinkle of damage when You E someone right now.

It already has counterplay in only hitting the first target along it's path, all it really needs is some actual utility so that it isn't just 50 extra damage when you give your ADC your E, especially with the whole "Lol no AP 4 us" issue we have since it scales with AP.

I'd also like if her Q had a more worthwhile debilitating effect since they removed the slow scaling on it and neutered it's damage. :/

chipndip11 votes

Well, here's the thing:

  1. It'd do at least SOME damage if we could reasonably build it, which we can't.

  2. You could increase your scalings for beneficial buffs...if we could build THAT.

All this is tied to ap, which supports aren't encouraged to build outside of specifically buying Ardent, Athene's, Zeke's, and FQC. I think that itemization is a route the game needs to go in before we start considering major buffs/changes to these supports.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

You sought to rise above your station and purchase items like normal players.

You should have been content with a support's natural build:

  • Boots of Speed
  • Philosopher's Stone
  • Kage's Lucky Pick
  • 5+ Green Wards
  • 3+ Pink Wards

If you are doing particularly well, we may have allowed you to upgrade to Boots of Mobility. However, your reach extended much too far and you are now suffering for such blatant arrogance.

Silverjust2 votes

I think support items should be cheap in general, but it would not hurt if there was a expencive support Item I think you should not be forced to go goldrunes as support

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I think support items should be cheap in general, but it would not hurt if there was a expencive support Item I think you should not be forced to go goldrunes as support

People actually think gold runes are worth it as a support? They haven't been since season 3, rofl.

chipndip12 votes

Basically. Like why on Earth did that appear in the conversation?

Maximum Morde1 votes

No, we need better AD items. I like to play Royal Guard Fiora support but my options are pretty limited. Rito fix pls.

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