Zoe has a 55% win rate on PRO PLAY. Maybe it time to rework her W.

Jubilee Phoenix·Apr 8, 2019·18 votes·10,249 views

Random is the one thing a pro player can’t deal with. Maybe getting redemption and getting a free heal and AOE damage on to creeps can be looked into.

51 Comments

thefatlazycatApr 8, 201912 votes

I'd say her Q is a bigger problem, the damage is overtuned (say it with me: because CT thought it would be a good idea), and the fact that it can be directed during CC means that disabling her isn't an option either, that seems like a bigger issue

SaezioApr 8, 20199 votes

Well, no because her Q is telegraphed as fuck and is blocked by minions. So there is skill expression there while her W is very luck based and not much skill is involved (especially since she gets those passive W rockets that auto-target and have a negligible CD)

The W remark that the OP mentioned is (at least in my eyes) a bad design. Maybe make the free spells from minions harder to pick-up. Anyone remember the Zac blob nerf that made him unviable in the top lane? something similar. OR make them less effective when picked up by minions depending on what kind of minion they were dropped from

Example: Casters drop spells/items which efficiency is level 1-6 (depending on either game time or Zoe's level)

Melee minions -> level 4-12

Siege minions-> 7-16

To be clear, I mean if Zoe is level 6 for example, the redemption she picks from a ranged creep is level 2 efficient while melee drop is level 5 and canon is level 8. So her enemy can play around the fact that Zoe will want to pick up a juicy canon drop but she will be more telegraphed, while getting the ranged equivalent would be very inefficient.

P.S. The numbers are just examples obviously, Riot doesn't pay me so I ain't gonna elaborate more.

RagnaveilApr 9, 20191 votes

Making them harder to pick up wont change the fact she's hella strong in teamfights when flashes are blown. You have to get point click cc on her and then burst her, but if you cant she's just gonna use that free flash to flash on another free flash, and flash out at mach 10 speed.

SaezioApr 9, 20191 votes

You are saying zoe's teamfighting is out of line? It's the first I hear about it, everyone had been complaining about her easy laning phase and early pick potential.

RagnaveilApr 9, 20191 votes

I mean, her pick potential is still crazy, but my biggest issue with her is the lack of trade-off W has. No cost, No cooldown, Instant activation, Free movespeed, Damage. Picking up an unfavorable item or sum has no trade off, not to mention she can sit on those for an entire minute, on top of the bubbles from minions on the ground lasting 20 seconds and the bubbles from champions lasting 40. That's nuts in the early game.

SaezioApr 9, 20191 votes

That is why I said that the W should be nerfed and not her other spells. Wouldn't it be a good way if the shards dropped closer to the enemy team. Picking up a shard under the enemy tower for example or in the enemy's minions instea of the place the minion died. Also the efficiency now depends on Zoe's level, maybe make the efficiency lower and/or remove all scaling from w picked up stuff.

RagnaveilApr 8, 20195 votes

The big issues are w and e. E's duration needs to be lower period. If you dont have qss and she manages to clip your hitbox, she will straight up nuke you. W is just a pain in the ass, if flashes got blown left and right, she'll just pick them all up and be hard to catch.

TworieApr 9, 20196 votes

Her Q is her main wave clear though... You can't really touch it.

IllabetheApr 9, 20192 votes

They already lopped off about 25% of the max damage scaling....

GayFluffyUnicornApr 9, 20192 votes

Why can't we? Is the game worse off if zoe would be barely viable instead of batshit crazy perma pick/ban?

I see no downsides to zoe getting nerfed properly.

TworieApr 9, 20192 votes

Her Q is where most of her damage is in her kit. If you nerfed it, you'd have to rework her ult to do damage.

RagnaveilApr 9, 20191 votes

Right, but at the same time you gotta look at how fast the damage scales on distance. 50% increase at 1350 units is no laughing matter.

KadexeApr 8, 201911 votes

Win rate means nothing in pro play, the sample sizes are nowhere near large enough. What you should be looking at is presence - how often the champion is picked or banned.

RagnaveilApr 8, 20196 votes

Right, and she's being picked A LOT. She's practically Old Vik but not only better, but safer by being able to deal damage from half a screen away.

D357R0Y3RApr 8, 20193 votes

Old viktor was close to 100% pick/ban what are you smoking

him, azir, and taliyah ryze in s6 were the only mages played mid

zoe is ranked 6th most picked/banned in pro by gol

SweedishGunnerApr 9, 20192 votes

The only reason he was picked as well was to counter the waveclear of the other mages too, man I miss 1000g Hexcore.

RagnaveilApr 9, 20191 votes

And thats what Zoe brings right now. She's a longer range Lissandra without the tank stats and multi cc. The fact her Q does damage in a AOE just lets her clear so fast with how the damage ramp-up works. If Q needs to be nerfed, that needs to be adjusted instead of touching the damage.

PsyrixApr 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Win rate means nothing in pro play, the sample sizes are nowhere near large enough. What you should be looking at is presence - how often the champion is picked or banned.

that's why u buy merc boots :/, dramatically guts down the CC duration, as well as reducing the damage taken by quite a good chunk.

Craft ZeppelinApr 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

that's why u buy merc boots :/, dramatically guts down the CC duration, as well as reducing the damage taken by quite a good chunk.

Yeah getting merc or cleanse is just good counterplay against Zoe. ...But people go sorc boots and ignite.

Can't they read she steals summoner spells?

2Charmnot2CharmApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-04-09T03:34:14.450+0000)

Yeah getting merc or cleanse is just good counterplay against Zoe. ...But people go sorc boots and ignite.

Can't they read she steals summoner spells?

Depends on what champs they are playing, if it's assassins then I can see why since they can punish zoe.

D357R0Y3RApr 8, 20197 votes

"RIOT STOP BALANCING AROUND PRO PLAY"

then

"Nerf Zoe, she has 55% win rate in pro"

Power CosmicApr 8, 20192 votes

Pro is showing she has too much in her kit to be as safe as she is. But sadly you can't fix overloaded kits with balancing.

D357R0Y3RApr 8, 20193 votes

pro shows nothing, zoe is the 6th most picked midlaner and there are way more broken champions to pick in pro

SpaghettiVaseApr 8, 20192 votes

Nerf galio he's too strong in pro play :^)

D357R0Y3RApr 8, 20193 votes

the difference is that Galio keeps getting abused by pro players WHICH MAKES Riot nerfing him, and never managing to fix him

Irelia BotApr 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

"RIOT STOP BALANCING AROUND PRO PLAY"

then

"Nerf Zoe, she has 55% win rate in pro"

?

Why not just nerf Zoe in general then?

D357R0Y3RApr 9, 20191 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/29f93012445e8b99d8e945e02b7b0a69.png 48% win rate 6% pick rate

6th most picked midlaner in pro

go nerf

Rock MDApr 8, 20196 votes

We've nerfed the W a million times and she's still a problem.

The problem is her Q. It gives her a lot of lane safety because she clears very quickly and very safely and allows her to scale up to her one shot potential with almost no ability to properly trade into her.

FSRERApr 8, 20192 votes

Nerfed? I still ignite her, barriers it and ignites me back, where is the balancing in that? It could have been balanced (right now isn't) if the spells were only at 40% scaling up with ap (up to about 90%) of their original power. Her q on the other hand is a skillshot, which actually needs a lot of practice to get it right and we have other champions with point and click abilities doing more dmg with less items (rengar can delete a adc with a 2900 gold item ( item 3147 ) with no counterplay while at least zoe has her only (almost) damaging abilities locked behind experience on playing the champion.

Rock MDApr 8, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Nerfed? I still ignite her, barriers it and ignites me back, where is the balancing in that? It could have been balanced (right now isn't) if the spells were only at 40% scaling up with ap (up to about 90%) of their original power. Her q on the other hand is a skillshot, which actually needs a lot of practice to get it right and we have other champions with point and click abilities doing more dmg with less items (rengar can delete a adc with a 2900 gold item () with no counterplay while at least zoe has her only (almost) damaging abilities locked behind experience on playing the champion.

You're paying zero attention to the risk/reward. Yes, if she gets a lot of summoners, in a lategame teamfight she does a lot of damage.

But you're not factoring in a number of things.

How she has to step up to get the orbs.
You see what the orbs are and what summoner spell she has in her inventory
she has a set range with which she can use them.

So there are risks to it, and it's fair to reward her greatly with it.

But Q is another story entirely. Zoe's Q is low risk for very high reward, it autoshoves waves until she gets to the point she can one-shot you, and the range on it is huge.

Yes her W is targeted damage but Zoe is picked in LCS as the premier poke champion. It's not because of her W because that's not a poke tool in the slightest.

I wrote a 3 page essay on Zoe's problems. Would you like me to upload it and link it?

YennApr 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-08T17:56:19.158+0000)

We've nerfed the W a million times and she's still a problem.

The problem is her Q. It gives her a lot of lane safety because she clears very quickly and very safely and allows her to scale up to her one shot potential with almost no ability to properly trade into her.

The random component is still a pretty big problem, especially with summoner spells. It would be possibly be okay if we could see what the bubbles are going to drop, so we can play around it.

Her Q gives her a lot of safety, but certain summoner spells can completely remove your ability to trade with or kill her, or certain combinations can allow her to basically run you down if you're playing a 100% skill shot reliant champion (i.e. she's holding a Ghost and then an Exhaust drops).

Rock MDApr 8, 20195 votes

{quoted}

The random component is still a pretty big problem, especially with summoner spells. It would be possibly be okay if we could see what the bubbles are going to drop, so we can play around it.

Her Q gives her a lot of safety, but certain summoner spells can completely remove your ability to trade with or kill her, or certain combinations can allow her to basically run you down if you're playing a 100% skill shot reliant champion (i.e. she's holding a Ghost and then an Exhaust drops).

The random component is frustrating.

But if her only problem was she was frustrating, she wouldn't be an LCS pick. LCS picks are LCS picks because they're reliable.

Use your head.

IllabetheApr 9, 20192 votes

Lmfao literally every change to her W was a Buff......

Buff 1) Move speed at level 1 increased from 10% to 20% Buff 2) Damage per orb increased Buff 3) Orbs prioritize champions....

Nerfs? The nerfs have been elsewhere.

Rock MDApr 9, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Lmfao literally every change to her W was a Buff......

Buff 1) Move speed at level 1 increased from 10% to 20% Buff 2) Damage per orb increased Buff 3) Orbs prioritize champions....

Nerfs? The nerfs have been elsewhere.

Upon release, yes every change to her W WAS a buff.

8.4 Spell Thief Minions can no longer drop shards for Teleport Teleport. Bonus movement speed increased to 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70% from 10 / 25 / 40 / 55 / 70%. AP ratio increased to 60% AP from 40% AP.

8.5 Spell Thief Bubble acquisition range increased to 550 from 525. Base damage increased to 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 from 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250. AP ratio increased to 75% AP from 60% AP.

And then people realized it was pretty stupid with Electrocute so they nerfed it repeatedly.

8.13 Spell Thief AP ratio reduced to 65% AP from 75% AP. Bonus movement speed duration reduced to 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 / 2.75 / 3 seconds from 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4.

8.14 Spell Thief Total base damage reduced to 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 / 195 from 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255. AP ratio reduced to 55% AP from 65% AP.

8.16 Spell Thief AP ratio reduced to 40% AP from 55% AP.

And then there's the other changes where they took items like Gunblade and Teleport out of her grab bag.

Don't try tell me half the story.

IllabetheApr 9, 20192 votes

So basically:

W still has a higher move speed bonus W has the same initial damage and AP scaling as it did when she was released. Oh Right, Sounds like a net nerf to me (But those Gunblade/Teleports....)

SaezioApr 9, 20191 votes

You have to keep in mind, the "nerfs" were not on rank 1 W almost at all. The only change was on the Ratio for rank 1. So the difference would be after level 9 onwards if Zoe decided to max W second (the hexflash playstyle that the LMS midlaner started) If zoe was maxing Q->E->W the nerfs would only start affecting her after the first 13 levels.

NetorareApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-08T17:56:19.158+0000)

We've nerfed the W a million times and she's still a problem.

The problem is her Q. It gives her a lot of lane safety because she clears very quickly and very safely and allows her to scale up to her one shot potential with almost no ability to properly trade into her.

U can easily dodge her Q if ur not a bonobo but whateve man, mages are broken. She clears quickly yes, yes she is a mage like any other... Can y'all stop forgetting that her Q scales with distance and fucking flash TOWARDS her and get a fucking free kill. Zoe ain't as safe as Vel'koz and Xerath because of her R that puts her in PLACE which is obvious...

Rock MDApr 9, 20193 votes

{quoted}

U can easily dodge her Q if ur not a bonobo but whateve man, mages are broken. She clears quickly yes, yes she is a mage like any other... Can y'all stop forgetting that her Q scales with distance and fucking flash TOWARDS her and get a fucking free kill. Zoe ain't as safe as Vel'koz and Xerath because of her R that puts her in PLACE which is obvious...

Dodging one Q is easy. It's the old Nidalee argument if that one kills you and she invests very little into netting the skillshot, it's a frustrating, low counterplay experience.
She literally clears casters with a single spell 4 levels before the vast majority of mages can. Don't pretend it's normal for mages to clear as safely as she does.
Vel'Koz and Xerath also don't have the ability to steal summoners. They also don't have the same pick range as her. Just because she isn't as far back doesn't mean she's not a safe pick, nor does it mean that she's not a problem right now.

Craft ZeppelinApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=000300030000,timestamp=2019-04-09T03:59:36.608+0000)

Dodging one Q is easy. It's the old Nidalee argument if that one kills you and she invests very little into netting the skillshot, it's a frustrating, low counterplay experience.

She literally clears casters with a single spell 4 levels before the vast majority of mages can. Don't pretend it's normal for mages to clear as safely as she does.

Vel'Koz and Xerath also don't have the ability to steal summoners. They also don't have the same pick range as her. Just because she isn't as far back doesn't mean she's not a safe pick, nor does it mean that she's not a problem right now.

The paradox of that is if Zoe can land a Q at you, its likely you also have a equal chance hitting her. (That is before she gets R)
A lot of mages can clear casters equally. Hell some lot of them can clear the melees efficiently as well. Its nothing special.
Vel'koz and Xerath has better winrates and success (And dedicated onetricks since they are oldschool champs). I'm a main of all Vel, Xerath and Zoe and I think you are mistaking something. Its not the summoner spells or the poke, its the movement speed that is OP as heck. Once she gains a HP advantage, she can ignite as a initiate and run at the enemy because she will totally outrun any midlane mage and proceeds to statcheck you. It creates a "you don't have to aim" checkmate situation. Mobility is god in this game.

Yordle XayahApr 8, 20196 votes

People who've never played Zoe: Q HIT ME IS BROKEN REEEEEE People who actually play Zoe: W is busted

Craft ZeppelinApr 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

People who've never played Zoe: Q HIT ME IS BROKEN REEEEEE People who actually play Zoe: W is busted

Meanwhile

Enemy takes cleanse Zoe players: wtf my W does nothing and I get counterkilled when I land E and they go ham on me because i used my only CC. GG

IllabetheApr 9, 20195 votes

Gratz. You cried so much about Q and E, they had to shift her balance to other skills.

Now you hate her W.

Here's the real hard truth: Zoe was fine in her first incarnation. It was skill capped, and had a very WIDE delta from average win rates to reward it.

And then players complained, and her damage got moved to the "easy to use" parts of her kit instead.

Gratz. You sabotaged yourself.

For what it's worth..... Zoe is stupidly weak vs champs like Morgana. Part of the reason Zoe is climbing, is because Morgana is being 51% Banned.

Craft ZeppelinApr 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Gratz. You cried so much about Q and E, they had to shift her balance to other skills.

Now you hate her W.

Here's the real hard truth: Zoe was fine in her first incarnation. It was skill capped, and had a very WIDE delta from average win rates to reward it.

And then players complained, and her damage got moved to the "easy to use" parts of her kit instead.

Gratz. You sabotaged yourself.

For what it's worth..... Zoe is stupidly weak vs champs like Morgana. Part of the reason Zoe is climbing, is because Morgana is being 51% Banned.

Also assassin players want to "style" playing Zed instead of going Talon. Mage players do not want to play Xerath. These two picks are insta-dodge for the Zoe player. Its that hard.

kuzzy47Apr 8, 20192 votes

Meanwhile 46 % wr in plat plus and i bet its lower for the majority of playernase silver and bromze.

TargonApr 8, 20192 votes

In my opinion, Zoe's E (Sleepy Trouble Bubble) is the most problematic part of her kit.

The pick potential of this ability is extremely valuable in coordinated play when your teammates can follow up. It is especially strong if Zoe's team has dragon/Baron control and makes it nearly impossible to content dragon/Baron.

If Zoe ever gets nerfed or tweaks to her kit, then I'd like them to remove how generous her E travels through terrain. I don't get why it travels so far after it exits terrain, and watching pro games, you can see it catches a lot of pro players off guard too. It would probably be more balanced if it travelled a maximum distance like most skill shots.

RagnaveilApr 9, 20191 votes

Right. I'd also look at the sleep duration. If you have no qss, she'll one shot you if she clips you with e's hitbox because she can flash in her R to make Q go farther (arguably the biggest thing that makes her op, the ability to add more distance to her Q R combo that against a sleeped or cced target, you will kill them)

SpaghettiVaseApr 8, 20191 votes

There aren't too many games in the LCS (which I'm assuming you're talking about because calling in the global pro numbers is really sketchy as no two regions play the same) there aren't enough games to really look at a 55% winrate as "broken." You could say olaf jungle is INSANELY weak as he just got his first win yesterday in LCS, but he has the SAME WINRATE as Zoe in Korea. Is he broken? Does he need nerfs? Especially since he was just going redemption first item .

RagnaveilApr 9, 20191 votes

Issue is, not every region prioitizes the same picks. The only instance that happened was the Aatrox v Urgot matchup that about every region adopted until their gutting. Zoe on the other hand ever since her Q change has been doing this constantly, solo queue and pro.

BobaFlautistApr 9, 20191 votes

Her W minion bubbles should be scripted for the first 5-10 minutes.

Or not exist, tbh.

GlancingChaosApr 9, 20191 votes

Nah what are you talking about its not like when I decided to be monky with zoe and miss every thing I just rush at them with a flash ignite while picking up a free hextech items nah it's completly fine, why are you running why are you running??

I stopped playing zoe for a bit becuase it feels like her W was more busted than anything.

I hate seeing new zoe players get a double from running around spamming items and summners just becuase of the base damage and ap scaling.

It felt wrong.

I like playing from time to time to land some fat Es but soon enough I'll go against some yas or feed nasus and Ill just quit league for the day.

They should nerf the W damage some more or remove the extra damage from the passive and make zoe only rely on the summoner spell effect.