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What if dying gave bonus gold on CS?

Disulfiram··4 votes·851 views

I've read a few complaints about the game being too snowbally; I don't know if that is true, but let's say it is for the sake of explaining this idea.

The idea being: what if, after dying to an enemy champion, the first 15 lane minions you kill on your side of the map gave 15 bonus gold (if not used expires, dying again refreshes it but doesn't stack)?

(Limited to your side of the map mainly because of Singed) (Maybe limit it to monsters instead of minions if you have a jungle item?)

This way 1 lucky kill doesn't mean you lost the lane, since you get almost as much gold as you gave your enemy, but at the same time if your enemy can CONSISTENTLY bully you then his lead from that kill becomes permanent.

It also disocurages picking on always the same champion: if you were 0/13 (because of 4 men ganks or whatever reason) you would give very little gold when killed but would still get the full bonus, meaning you're actually benefitting from being camped, which would force the enemy team to go do something else, maybe take an objective instead of camping you.

What do you think about this?

26 Comments

DrCyanide2 votes

Limited to your side of the map mainly because of Singed

I was very happy to see you think about that before hand.

The biggest problem I see is that there will likely be a situation where it's more advantageous to die and collect the bonus gold than to try and live. 15 gold is about what a caster minion starts out as, and 15 minions is about two waves. Two waves giving the gold of four just for you dying seems like something people would want to manipulate.

Disulfiram1 votes

A legitimate concern, but I can't think of other situations where this could be abused...

DrCyanide4 votes

The winning team pushes aggressively, dying for their effort to take some towers. The defenders have a slight moment of advantage, so they push out trying to get a tower of their own. By the time they arrive the winning team has revived and is ready to get 4 waves worth of gold in 2 waves time, expanding the snowballing effect you wanted to stop.

Disulfiram1 votes

This could be prevented by either having the bonus interact differently when assists are involved (e.g. lower the more assists your kill gave) or having it decrease/stop being issued after a certain time mark. Imho the former would be better, since it would also lessen the bonus you get from dying to a gank.

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

theres already stuff in place to stop you from picking on the same champion. All this would do is buff the shit out of farmers Nasus and aoe spammers Anivia Syndra Ahri

and don't even get me started on Karthus + summoner 12

Disulfiram1 votes

15 minions are more than 2 waves; Karthus+Teleport would still need to play safe, as if he died again he'd lose the first bonus.

As for Nasus and AoE spammers, you'd need to bully them consistently, with consistently being the keyword here. If you got a lucky kill and can't push that advantage to at least keep them away from minions for a few minutes, then they recover from it; if you can push that advantage, they don't recover and you get to keep it.

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

{quoted}

15 minions are more than 2 waves; Karthus+Teleport would still need to play safe, as if he died again he'd lose the first bonus.

As for Nasus and AoE spammers, you'd need to bully them consistently, with consistently being the keyword here. If you got a lucky kill and can't push that advantage to at least keep them away from minions for a few minutes, then they recover from it; if you can push that advantage, they don't recover and you get to keep it.

at the end of the day, the strategy doesn't change. The only difference is that if you actually manage to get the kill from your aggressive play that now that champ will come back and get bonus gold compared to before. All this does is nerf the normal efforts to win.

If nobody plays differently because its not that big a deal then all this does is reward failure If people play differently because its impactful it will effect champs disproportionately as I mentioned above.

No matter what the one who got a kill will essentially be punished.

Disulfiram1 votes

That's not true: if you got the kill by accident, then it would be as if you didn't. If you got it through actual bullying, then it would be as it is now.

But there is a facet you don't consider: if you want to make a risky play, you'd be encouraged to. This is because if you fail but are not against a lane bully, you can recover, while if you succeed and are a lane bully yourself then you get to keep that advantage.

Please keep in mind that this idea is not meant to alter game balance: it is meant to avoid frustrating situations like the enemy ADC getting first blood with a lucky crit from a single crit rune and then snowballing and winning the game off of that. Or like a single lag spike while diving costing you a lead you had and potentially the game. And so on...

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

That's not true: if you got the kill by accident, then it would be as if you didn't. If you got it through actual bullying, then it would be as it is now.

But there is a facet you don't consider: if you want to make a risky play, you'd be encouraged to. This is because if you fail but are not against a lane bully, you can recover, while if you succeed and are a lane bully yourself then you get to keep that advantage.

Please keep in mind that this idea is not meant to alter game balance: it is meant to avoid frustrating situations like the enemy ADC getting first blood with a lucky crit from a single crit rune and then snowballing and winning the game off of that. Or like a single lag spike while diving costing you a lead you had and potentially the game. And so on...

it will alter game balance. Sorry to say this but whether he killed you by being "lucky" or doing it "legit" it matters not. All you are doing is making kills mean nothing until death timers are relevant, dying meaning nothing until death timers are relevant. Anyone can get some amount of CS after dying if you die before getting 15 cs then you are either getting the shit camped outta you or you are such a terrible player that killing you is as easy as touching you with AIR!

Killing should mean something, dying should mean something. It doesn't matter how they got the kill or how you died. It is going to prolong games needlessly due to everyone having similar gold, you aren't rewarding people from killing to the point that they would rather just let you back than actually kill you since that way you are actually losing gold instead of randomly gaining gold from minions for no reason other than "we feel sorry that you died so here have free gold!"

Disulfiram1 votes

Killing you would still matter, for the killer would be able to recall while you respawn and come back with an XP and gold lead.

If he can't push that advantage to the point that you don't miss even a few minions over the next 2 waves, then and only then does that kill become almost irrelevant. (Please note that the bonus gold from this idea is supposed to disappear if not collected in a certain time window)

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Killing you would still matter, for the killer would be able to recall while you respawn and come back with an XP and gold lead.

If he can't push that advantage to the point that you don't miss even a few minions over the next 2 waves, then and only then does that kill become almost irrelevant. (Please note that the bonus gold from this idea is supposed to disappear if not collected in a certain time window)

so you mean either camp the hell out of the opponent or make every single kill irrelevant in terms of gold? no thanks. Anyone that is not trolling or is a moron who just wants to fight for no reason, will be able to maintain their CS score very easily. Hell there are multiple times in which your CS score is the same as your opponent (if not higher) even though you have died multiple times. I do not give a damn about it disappearing after a while, it shouldn't be a thing to begin with.

Disulfiram1 votes

Would you please read my replies to you? As I've already written: no. The bonus would only be available for a few waves, likely 2 or 3. Every CS your opponent makes you miss carries a portion of that bonus gold.

If you don't miss a single CS over the 3 waves immediately after dying, even though your opponent (who already killed you and now has a gold and XP lead) is not AFK, then and only then your death won't matter.

And if your opponent, who has a lead and was already able to kill you, can't zone you away from farm at all for 2 waves, then the kill was 100% undeserved and due to chance.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Would you please read my replies to you? As I've already written: no. The bonus would only be available for a few waves, likely 2 or 3. Every CS your opponent makes you miss carries a portion of that bonus gold.

If you don't miss a single CS over the 3 waves immediately after dying, even though your opponent (who already killed you and now has a gold and XP lead) is not AFK, then and only then your death won't matter.

And if your opponent, who has a lead and was already able to kill you, can't zone you away from farm at all for 2 waves, then the kill was 100% undeserved and due to chance.

and you are not reading at all. Unless you are being camped to hell or are a moron you aren't going to lose any CS or a very minimal amount of it in the laning phase after that it all goes up in flames since everyone is moving how much CS people get is random (in SoloQ that is) so you might have some that will get so much actual extra gold due to a massive minion wave or because of map movements. Your idea is GARBAGE! sorry but there is not such thing as an "undeserved kill" you screwed up and gave the kill to the opponent. Do not come here spewing nonsense just because "oh noes i died to this guy i shouldn't be punished for it!" YOU DIED YOU PAY THE CONSEQUENCES!

This is not something that is going to be implemented EVER because it serves no purpose other than harming those who actually killed you and why? "oh he might have gotten and undeserving kill" sorry that does not work in the slightest

Disulfiram1 votes

First of all, please calm down.

Second, I use crit chance runes: I'm usually the one GETTING the undeserved kill.

Last, if you can't even zone your opponent immediately after getting gold and XP from a kill then it's obvious you didn't have the upper hand even before you got that kill. Unless you understand nothing about zoning and wave control, of course, but I was assuming you did understand that. Sorry if this wasn't the case.

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

{quoted}

First of all, please calm down.

Second, I use crit chance runes: I'm usually the one GETTING the undeserved kill.

Last, if you can't even zone your opponent immediately after getting gold and XP from a kill then it's obvious you didn't have the upper hand even before you got that kill. Unless you understand nothing about zoning and wave control, of course, but I was assuming you did understand that. Sorry if this wasn't the case.

There are more ways to get a kill than zoning and wave control. Your system rewards players who dive and die for nothing by the way.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

First of all, please calm down.

Second, I use crit chance runes: I'm usually the one GETTING the undeserved kill.

Last, if you can't even zone your opponent immediately after getting gold and XP from a kill then it's obvious you didn't have the upper hand even before you got that kill. Unless you understand nothing about zoning and wave control, of course, but I was assuming you did understand that. Sorry if this wasn't the case.

ok let me tell you in words that your thick skull will understand. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA!

There is no such thing as an undeserving kill. The enemy misplayed, mispositioned, got outplayed. It's entirely their fault for dying not because "oh i guess i proc'd my 1% crit chance too bad for him". Sorry to say this but you are the one who understands nothing about how kills work. You do not simply become to strong that you are able to zone the enemy after a single kill. More often than not whatever item you managed to get ahead of him is nothing more than a component item or boots. The only way a champion is going to zone you that much after a single kill is because he got counterpicked so hard or the enemy has no idea how to deal with your champion. A single kill won't magically make you zone them. You see it every single game in every single Elo. You kill someone and then it's just back to farming unless you have your jungler gank him again or they decided to pick something stupid like a melee champion against Darius since you are not strong enough from a single kill. Hell there are times that even after that one kill the enemy still has higher CS than you. All this will accomplish is make champions with waveclear be "thanks for the extra gold". This is a change that favors waveclear champions than those who take their time clearing minion waves. You can keep saying all you want, won't change a single thing about how terrible your idea is.

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

{quoted}

That's not true: if you got the kill by accident, then it would be as if you didn't. If you got it through actual bullying, then it would be as it is now.

No it wont, you have nothing here to change anything. All that's going to happen is that champs who die early will get more gold than normal unless someone is abusing this.

If you get the kill by accident then now your opponent gets free gold for dying compared to before. There's nothing new that's going to happen here. The extra gold either doesn't change how they play or is worth so much that dying is worth it.

If you get the kill on purpose now there's just more pressure on you as punishment for killing your lane opponent who now comes back with item advantage. How dare you press your earlygame advantage! Now you must be punished with an opponent that spikes even faster than he would have before because unlike before now he gets bonus gold for doing exactly the same as he normally would have

But there is a facet you don't consider: if you want to make a risky play, you'd be encouraged to. This is because if you fail but are not against a lane bully, you can recover, while if you succeed and are a lane bully yourself then you get to keep that advantage.

I've already considered this. That's why I mention this for champs like nasus or karthus who can abuse the shit out of this.

Please keep in mind that this idea is not meant to alter game balance: it is meant to avoid frustrating situations like the enemy ADC getting first blood with a lucky crit from a single crit rune and then snowballing and winning the game off of that. Or like a single lag spike while diving costing you a lead you had and potentially the game. And so on...

It alters game balance, you can't change the rate of gold flow without altering balance. That isn't realistic. You can't balance the game around luck and lag spikes without terrible consequences

Disulfiram1 votes

{quoted}

If you get the kill on purpose now there's just more pressure on you as punishment for killing your lane opponent who now comes back with item advantage.

How can he come back with item advantage if he didn't collect the bonus yet?

Did you just sit on your hands while he respawned instead of recalling? You just got gold and XP from a kill. If your opponent was able to buy something useful with what he had, then you obviously could too.

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

{quoted}

How can he come back with item advantage if he didn't collect the bonus yet?

Did you just sit on your hands while he respawned instead of recalling? You just got a kill gold. If your opponent was able to buy something useful with what he had, then you obviously could too.

This is how the game has always worked. The one who dies gets item advantage while the one who lives get level advantage. Of course level advantage wont mean much if there's a farming buff now that rewards you for getting killed. You'll have to go to base and waste time spending your petty kill gold on something to stop them from ignoring your accomplishment because screw you for maybe getting lucky. The game is now balanced around his "lag spike" or whatever caused him to dive you like an idiot.

Different champs scale differently with item advantage, especially when farming is giving bonus gold for no good reason.

Disulfiram1 votes

Yeah, sadly if you won't adjust to changes and don't recall during the respawn time, if you keep acting as you did before this change (well, ANY change) was implemented, you'll get the short end of that stick. Happens.

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, sadly if you won't adjust to changes and don't recall during the respawn time, if you keep acting as you did before this change (well, ANY change) was implemented, you'll get the short end of that stick. Happens.

No, it doesn't end there

If you don't adjust to changes you get the short end of the stick If you don't benefit from the changes you also get the short end of the stick

This automatically hoses anyone with a strong level 1 but not so bad afterwards This rewards farmers and other passive play for absolutely nothing This also rewards people who take risks and fail for failing

If you get an early kill because you did what you normally are supposed to then you are now forced to face someone with two advantages over you instead of just one. Even if you go get items they now only have to get farming items and anything they need to ignore your quickly fading presence even though you killed them due to increased income compared to normal.

Your kill rewards the person you killed if they are better off after you kill them than you using this system

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

15 minions are more than 2 waves; Karthus+Teleport would still need to play safe, as if he died again he'd lose the first bonus.

As for Nasus and AoE spammers, you'd need to bully them consistently, with consistently being the keyword here. If you got a lucky kill and can't push that advantage to at least keep them away from minions for a few minutes, then they recover from it; if you can push that advantage, they don't recover and you get to keep it.

I think you overestimate how easily you can turn a 1/0 lead in to a 2/0 lead.

Unless your lane opponent has a death wish / just wants to fight non-stop, it typically takes at least 5 waves or a gank / tower dive to get another kill. And that's only if you're taking a risk going for it (that you could get ganked).

Report for Wuju1 votes

Singed.

Disulfiram1 votes

(Limited to your side of the map mainly because of Singed)

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Isn't that the idea behind buying cull though? To recover from a loosing lane?

LordGeovanni1 votes

if riot wanted to stop snowballing the would make defensive items more powerfull and or reduce the gold you get from kills and remove stupid first blood tower.

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