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Let's talk about Ravenous Hydra

Sir ArmaMalum··3 votes·1,271 views

item 3074

This item has been a tick on my list for in-game frustrations for awhile. The reason? It eliminates trading.

Simply, if I try trading with a champion with a hydra with my own minions in tow, they out-heal any damage difference I deal and if I try engaging without my minions their minions make up the difference with damage taken to me. Now don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Hydra. However, once had it eliminates any real dueling potential with your opponent unless they either went full armor tank or for a Hydra themselves. This at least has been my experience in Gold.

I'm not asking "how do I beat a Hydra champ?" I realize it's an expensive item with very few defensive stats so the argument could be made them having it is punishment for me not crushing them, but my issue is the fact that Hydra has is an item that forces itself onto a champion. It allows a champion to out-trade anyone else while in-lane, as well as heal a noticeable amount out-of-combat. It's an item that wholly stops trading, and as someone who loves this game the dueling and the ability to showcase individual skill as much as teamwork, this annoys me greatly.

Thoughts?

19 Comments

Drunk Rummate8 votes

Hydra is 3300 gold. By the time it's complete I don't think lane trading should be as much of an issue to worry about and you certainly shouldn't need minion damage to gain an advantage over your opponent. At that point you can clear waves in about 1-3 seconds and you should be trying to jump people or fight them in 2v1s unless you're grossly ahead of them in gold income.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

I agree that the price is the primary check against Hydra, and that laning should usually be over. But in my experience in soloque they just splitpush and force me to go back and push against them. Granted, yes, my team should be with me and kill him as he's alone, but that's how splitpushing's been since the beginning.

However, with Hydra it's different, as before it I would normally be able to push a single person off with decent trading. However, a hydra top can just back off for 20 sec or so and regen all of his/her health back via my friendly minions. Any lifesteal heavy champs had to at least get it back slowly because they had to basic the minions to get it, which gives their opponent time to harass them off the wave.

Caezium1 votes

Perhaps they could up the lifesteal to like 15%-18% and make the AOE lifesteal bit only work against champions? I don't know. I never thought of it as a real issue.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

It's not an overarching issue. It's an issue that (imho) affects a certain skill level in solo que specifically. Team play denies this advantage (because later game split pushing doesn't happen) and higher/lower skill level changes the laning priorities and strategies.

All in all, it really doesn't affect the League base as a whole, but I think it may creep up to be a problem later.

mi ramfan3 votes

Well, what champion are you playing? If you're playing a melee AD, you could always get your own Hydra.

I kind of agree with the others in this thread as well in that most of the time the laning phase will be over by the time you get the Hydra anyways.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Renek primarily, love that guy, although I've been feeling forced towards AP tops lately.

Jamini2 votes

...This is like complaining that you can't trade with a marksman who has a BotRK. Why are you trying to trade with someone that has significant lifesteal? Once someone has lifesteal, it becomes a game of "All in, or don't bother."

(By the way, I consider lifesteal/spellvamp to be horrid mechanics that are far, far more "toxic" than a dedicated healer role. But hey, Riot's balance team totally disagree with me on that front. So w/e.)

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

...This is like complaining that you can't trade with a marksman who has a BotRK

Three key differences. One is that bortk is still single target, so matter how you look at it it simply takes longer to get the health back. Allowing harass time. Second is that lifesteal's main counter is armor, which does wonders for champ vs champ trading, but minions sadly do not have that luxury and allow an enemy champ to go from 1/4 to 3/4 health with a single wave. And lastly botrk is primarily bought on squishier champs (with specific exceptions like Gnar), Hydra is primarily bought on bruiders and melee champs, who usually have a lot more innate tankiness so the problem is much larger imho.

By the way, I consider lifesteal/spellvamp to be horrid mechanics

I'm inclined to agree with you to a point. For me ot's largely out-of-combat healing. I'm fine with lifesteal vs. champs, it provides another interaction with healing while not requiring a healer (as plenty if team comps won't have direct healing) and avanues to prevent said healing through AS reduction and grievous wounds. However when lifesteal is abused on objects that you as a player have no control over (i.e. minions, jungle) it's like watching health potions just walk by to an enemies' maw.

AmazingGoat1 votes

...This is like complaining that you can't trade with a marksman who has a BotRK. Why are you trying to trade with someone that has significant lifesteal? Once someone has lifesteal, it becomes a game of "All in, or don't bother."

(By the way, I consider lifesteal/spellvamp to be horrid mechanics that are far, far more "toxic" than a dedicated healer role. But hey, Riot's balance team totally disagree with me on that front. So w/e.)

+1 for this.

Lifesteal/spellvamp are mechanics that seem to have minimal impact on the game at a competitive level except as pertains to sustain, but which allow some snowballing champions to dominate low ELO games to an unhealthy extent. Generally, if your team's burst champions have already used up their burst when Akali or Fiora show up, you are going to get aced.

Kira Onime2 votes

The real question is why are you trying to trade with that champion that has hydra.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Because in soloque laning phase never truly ends if there's someone splitpushing, at least in my experience.

Drukyul1 votes

I think the AD needs to be lowered. If you want to grab a good farming/pushing/lifesteal tool, that's great. But only 5 AD less than a BF-sword item and that active seems like a bit much.

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

Honestly I like the active and the general mechanic, my problem is simply the absurd healing that the lifesteal interaction gives. Personally I would love for a 50% reduction in the effect against minions. Still allows for healing but prevents ridiculous regen outside of trading. Then, even with the additional damage, the lifesteal would be about equivelent to a BT in the middle of a minion wave (guesstimating).

junglerboy161 votes

They should make it so that the AOE life steal is reduced by the same amount as the damage dealt, so standard AAs heal for 60-20% of your life steal, while the active heals for 100-60% of your life steal. That might make the healing less overbearing.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

I could get behind that as well, it would allow for a bit more counterplay as far as positioning goes. At the very least it's a step towards where I would like it to go without really gutting the item.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

I honestly don't think having that much lifesteal on a melee only item is a problem. You have to consider the scenarios where poking and sustain are truly issues, such as a turret siege.

The team being sieged has low access to sustain. That's what makes sieges powerful, and it's the only way to overcome that defensive turret advantage. Ranged champions have access to limited sustain during the waveclear, but melees generally can't afford to walk up to the wave and use their hydra burst because they'll be poked down by longer ranged champions while doing so.

On the other hand in a split push scenario, the champion who has enough lane control to walk around in enemy waves (giving away their position as well) deserves the advantage of that lifesteal. If they are defending a turret, using that life steal means they have to walk to the front side of it meaning they are exposed to your harassment or a dive. That's generally the entire purpose behind split pushing - you pick a champion with high sustain and 1v1 potential so that you don't have to recall when you're deep in enemy territory, thus giving up your positional advantage.

The5lacker1 votes

The problem is Ravenous is more or less "a better BT for melees" and always has been. On any champion who'd consider a BT, they'd might as well get a Hydra. That's not good design. Any item that's "X other item but with some perks" is bad design. It's the same problem Essence Reaver is going to have.

The trading potential, however, is kinda Rav Hydra's identity. It's designed for high-damage, high sustain fighters to let them survive in the middle of frantic teamfights. The high sustain in minion waves is a symptom of a more endemic problem with Lifesteal and Spellvamp as a whole. But that's a discussion for another time. The point is, Rav Hydra could use some tweaks perhaps but I think the problem is more systemic than statistic. If that makes any sense.

JayStar1 votes

I don't believe its a real issue because it costs a crazy amount of gold plus if they rush hydra then they will lack armor pen and that will hurt them in teamfights

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