Riot has said that Skarner and Morde both failed when reworked, and they are now thrown into the VGU group. So is this going to be a trend where failing the update means the champion is sent back to the drawing board or is this more of a case by case like thing?
RiotReav343 votesI think we just learned with the juggernaut update that trying to do a small update to a champion that needs a larger update doesn't result in a successful update. This is why we passed on swain for the Mage update. Swain needs work but probably more then one ability with minor art changes can solve.
Malicious Metal42 votesWell, you were testing the waters with the Juggernaut update and I see you guys have been improving on these class updates since. Still makes me a bit bitter about two of my favorite champions now being in need of a full VGU down the line.
But every VGU this far has been awesome so I can't wait to see Mordekaiser and Skarner being given their proper treatment some time around 3016
ULTRAF0RCE26 votesIt won't be that long, when did everyone realize that sion needed to be reworked 2009? you just have to wait till 2020, when a bankrupt rapper is planning to run for presidency and Mordekaiser and Skarner are going to be reworked*[slayer-jinx-wink]*
GenghisEmo3 votesThis was hilarious
TheI3igDaddy6 votesHopefully Yorick will be reworked by then, but my original bet was sometime in the 2030's.
PeponiPoro1 votesThey have already confirmed Yorick is next rework after midyear-mage, but you may have been being sarcastic and I just couldn't tell because I'm bad that way.
Desiderium5 votesMordekaiser and Skarner are your favorite champions? Do you always go for the underdogs or something?
Noam Braumsky4 votesI don't play Morde, but Skarner is actually really strong right now. He's a strong counter to "safe assassins" like 
and 
with his ult, and his clear is pretty nice too.
Axis the Dragon3 votesThat's Malicious Metal bro, he's been a Mordekaiser main for years
ABlueQuaker11 votesListening to player feedback would be a great idea too. You guys just ploughed on ahead with the Morde rework in spite of the huge outcry from his dedicated mains.
TurquoiseYoshi3 votesTbh I don't remember seeing a huge outcry about Morde. I remember Skarner "I got a rock" jokes/complaints, I remember Darius QQ about him being gutted, but I don't really remember Morde complaints until he was already released and after Skarner was hotfix gutted.
AvatarRoku224 votesTbh I don't remember seeing a huge outcry about Morde. I remember Skarner "I got a rock" jokes/complaints, I remember Darius QQ about him being gutted, but I don't really remember Morde complaints until he was already released and after Skarner was hotfix gutted.
Im sure you can go to the PBE forums around mid fall (prior to live release) and find the 100's of posts about how much people hated the morde rework.
skarner not as much but still right up there next to morde
Bears Dont Care3 votesI think we just learned with the juggernaut update that trying to do a small update to a champion that needs a larger update doesn't result in a successful update. This is why we passed on swain for the Mage update. Swain needs work but probably more then one ability with minor art changes can solve.
So.. about warwick... Is he on the list for an update? It has been 2 years since a redesign was proposed and he needs it the most
Dunkrius2g3 votesSo Darius was a success?
Spaceman5pff4 votesI'd say so. He is much easier to counterplay in lane now, and has a much more satisfying teamfighting pattern.
AvatarRoku224 votesindeed
Photos of Ghosts3 votesYou can build armor. You can go up melee and get less damage. You don't kite him automagically, but you CAN kite him. I'd say it's fine-ish.
GhostOfTsushima3 votesRiot just learned, you all heard. They just learned about the "Juggernaut" And Swain before every other Champion first.
I can name at least 20 other Champion that needs the attention more than this "Swain"
Thresh Outta Fux2 votesI don't think the Skarner update failed. The only thing you guys need to change is his Towers.
Make his towers work like wards. Skarner places them around the map as his trinket, follows max ward limit. Whichever team has them captured has vision of that area until another team captures the point. When Skarner places down a ward, it initially begins as a neutral point, like how they initially spawn on the map now. This way, Skarner can't just throw down his pad and instantly get a boost, while at the same time rewarding smart placement and objective control.
This would allow Lane Skarner to be a thing, while keeping Jungle Skarner intact.
Also, do not allow both teams to see the points when laid down. Treat them like Rek'Sai's tunnels. Only become visible through FoW after passing in vision range.
-Edit-
As for Morde, yes, I would agree his rework failed. A solo-lane tankmage was turned into a support. Who is now taken into bot lane with Blitzcrank instead of an ADC, and just 100-0's the enemy adc and wins the teamfights 6v4.
crippler381 votesit'd be interesting but that would encourage skarner to only ward places he's going to fight rather than toss wards for vision
Thresh Outta Fux1 votesShouldn't you want to have vision in places you want to fight?
Anywhere that we ward in a match is either for objective control, or to prevent being attacked by unseen opponents, or to attack opponents unseen. If Skarner could have 3 Spires out at a time like wards, wouldn't he want to place them based on where he needs to keep the pressure on the enemy team, but off his own?
Which would be, surprise surprise, where you should be warding. The only time a Skarner would drop a Spire right in the middle of lane, where you wouldn't want to ward, would be if he was laning, or if a teamfight was brewing in that lane, or if he needed to protect a tower.
If you put a spire anywhere you don't plan to fight/escape in, you're wasting the Spire like you'd waste a ward. Why would you ward an area of no strategic importance, other than to help clear your first camp in the jungle? The Spire is both a ward and more. And it should be treated as such.
crippler381 votesbecause what would happen with red trinkets for one, since they're wards wouldn't that sthu them off? for 2 wouldn't that mean he can't put down wards anywhere besides where he wants to fight.
personally I like to ward as I walk around to provide vision when I'm the jungler if I could only ward where I planned to fight someone which would be, baron dragon and buffs. None of those being lanes, besides it would show in big letters where things are warded.
I don't mind it if they do do this I'm just saying that I personally would dislike the change if they do. Because it would limit my warding options even if it gave me slightly more flexible fighting options, these options being basically early game ward exactly where the shrines are currently, and late game throw them out and basically be begging for them to be destroyed by red trinkets thus denying my usage of them. Not that I play skarner all that much but personally if I could see the enemy's wards I'd go out of my way to destroy them constantly
Thresh Outta Fux1 votesRed trinket would place them as per normal, but apply as pink wards. Can see enemy wards in them whilst captured. Limit to 2 instead of 3.
You're not wasting them if they give vision to allies. You want to know what wasting wards is? Wardhopping champions. That is a waste of wards. They throw them down on useless objectives like Gromp or Golems, or into lane to hop to them. They don't help your team get vision, they only save the selfish player's skin.
You're not going to ward anywhere that you will never fight. You don't throw wards anywhere that you don't plan on fighting/escaping from. If you're trying to get more vision in an area, it's because you plan to USE that area, whether as yourself or through your team.
GigglesO1 votesI think we just learned with the juggernaut update that trying to do a small update to a champion that needs a larger update doesn't result in a successful update. This is why we passed on swain for the Mage update. Swain needs work but probably more then one ability with minor art changes can solve.
Morde didn't get just "minor" ability tweaks though. You took away his armor and MR on W, you made it so that he can only cast W (for combat shield and damage) if there is something allied near him, and you lowered his movement speed much below a normal juggernaut.
Then to top it off because you wanted to be able to reward him for being able to build tanky, you gave him really poor starting stats, and lowered his damage unless he built damage. Besides Sona, Morde currently feels like the squishiest champ I play (until I get tank items), but unless I build damage, I don't have any. Again, this is partially because of his scaling, but also partially because I can't self cast W. When I can fight with W the fight doesn't feel completely helpless.
Every step of the way you guys asked how much W actually effected lane. There were morde's like myself who did max W in lane.
Ontop of that, you also pigeon holed into a lane that noone wanted him in. Was he playable in botlane? Yes. Were players able to support him? No.
Why were people not able to support him?
RiotReav36 votesThat's still minor compared to what Taric or Poppy got for example, which is what Morde actually needs in the future.
Brutusness3 votesThat's still minor compared to what Taric or Poppy got for example, which is what Morde actually needs in the future.
True. I recommend making him way taller, and giving him an intimidating movement animation, more reminiscent of Sauron (we all know this was a major inspiration for his design), as his old one is rather comical.
GigglesO1 votesThat's still minor compared to what Taric or Poppy got for example, which is what Morde actually needs in the future.
It is minor in comparison to full reworks, but when you consider that his Q, W, and E are all mechanically different to how he was played, to the player it is a major rework. Morde players before the update were used to going in and relying on using aoe damage to get his shield up, and using W to keep his shield up in between Q and E.
Now in comparison you are required to build health to get a larger shield. If you build health and tank you get no more than a 
which is 200 ap. With the rest of your items comprising of {{boots}} with a combination of anything that can give you armor, magic resist, and health. (Being that nuke mage and nuke ad don't work well on him)
Just to go through a standard fight.
Starting with Q, Your Q counts as an auto attack/ spell, I've noticed that off of the first two hits you only get the magic damage in shield, and then the third one doesn't apply on hit effects (like hydra) but you get the full 3rd hit in shield.
(Assuming 200 ap) That shield from Q is roughly 200 damage in shielding. (25% of low damage means almost no shield.)
W, is only usable alone for the quick double cast, again unless a teammate is nearby, which is when Morde feels (most) balanced. If you were to hit 4 enemy's with Morde's W, which is again when he feels best, with only 200 ap it hits for 1000 damage. 25% of 1k is a 250 damage in shielding, which if you hit 3 minions and 1 champion you get 312 HP in healing. (Which is a nice bonus)
But here is the problem with both of those abilities, Q while giving you higher damage is almost impossible to get off without the use of flash (Slow base speed, combo'd with possibly only a rylis) and then it blocks almost no damage, while dealing minimal damage. Meanwhile W Deals a good chunk of AOE damage, but in anything but an optimaly large block of enemies gives almost no real shielding. In other words on a tank build, with these two items, you get roughly 712 bonus health of shielding from these two skills.
Now here is where the real bread and butter comes into play. E gives (with 200 ap) ~ 68 shield, and if it is an enemy champion it gives another 250 (since a full hp build with the two items mentioned above gives roughly 1000 possible shield)
That means that if you hit an enemy with everything but your ulti, you get a whopping 718 shield with 312hp, making your total bonus hp 1030.
Now ignoring his ulti, all of that sounds super great! You have roughly 5k HP, with a good chunk of armor, and magic resist, but here is where the real downfall hits. All of your stuff is down for at least 5 seconds. You have no way of chasing, no way of running, and even if they are within melee range, you have no ability to do anything but auto attack and wait for cool downs.
Currently a standard ADC (full crit, with mortal reminder) deals ~500 or more damage per hit at 2 hits per second. That is 1000 damage per second. Just standing there you have 10 auto attacks to live through while you have no option other to stand there and take their damage. Which is if anyone can do the math, 5000 damage. On top of that, if they hit you with mortal reminder first, there goes some of that nice healing you got.
All of that above was with better than a 1v1 scenario. You hit minions with your W to get a larger shield, and with building juggernaut you did a whopping 1400-1500 damage in one full combo (not enough to kill someone). That is also only IF, IF you hit your third Q. So to kill them you have to manage to live through that 5 second window to get another full cast off, and if you live it was probably only because the enemy got worried about you killing them and ran away, just to reengage.
Now what happened differently with old morde? Well, unless they had a dash, you used W to kite them and slow them down (with rylis), by staying as close to them as you possibly could. What happens now? You try to kite with E, and you never get back in range of W.
I really think you underestimated how much having a solo W was worth in fights. I actually kind of wonder why you don't allow morde to have his (fully) solo cast W back, because between his higher base movement speed, his Q bouncing mechanic, and his aoe W he was better able to keep up with the enemy, or even just solo clear things and objectives.
Instead of removing some of his flaws, you just made them worse, and then added new ones on top of it. Honestly, if you wanted him to be in a good spot right now, you would allow him to have a higher base movement speed, and a fully self casting W. His aoe damage on W allows him to stay in trades longer, and a slightly higher movement speed would make him more reliable to get his third strike off. It wouldn't be quite as feast or famine.
Nekusen2 votesI think we just learned with the juggernaut update that trying to do a small update to a champion that needs a larger update doesn't result in a successful update. This is why we passed on swain for the Mage update. Swain needs work but probably more then one ability with minor art changes can solve.
but, Swain is listed as one of the champions that will get minor changes in the mage update
RiotReav37 votesYeah, minor update are fine, like the ones Urgot got for the marksmen update. The issue is when a change is big enough that it requires art resources.
agbudar1 votesyknow beside some art changes i dont think you would need to do a massive overhaul visually on 
perhaps a less goofy helmet with horns pointed forward??and less goofy legs but his current vu is really bad ass to look at.
perhaps give him a somewhat smaller mace and a shield? he is suposed to be a frontline dark general that loves suffering after all.
SettDownShutUp1 votesHOW did I miss this! I applaud you good sir.
DrNova7 votesNo, they are first ignored and or tweaked for a while.
Malicious Metal17 votesSad but true.
Arakadia5 votesYou have Morde I have Skarner I can relate...
Malicious Metal9 votesWe should find ourself a corner and cry until our tears are fully stacked.
Arakadia3 votesCome into my 
embrace. Very few can feel our pain.
DorkunedAuras6 votesAt least your champ hasn't been forced to be a full tank instead of a bruiser due to repeated nerfs 
She's only played in LCS because of knockups.
Burnt Iron King2 votesWho would't love to be knocked up by Rek'sai?
macromite2 votesI think everyone wouldn't love it. rek'sai is a girl.
The Yetii Rider4 votesAt least your champ hasn't been forced to be a full tank instead of a bruiser due to repeated nerfs
She's only played in LCS because of knockups.
To be fair, A) champions shouldn't have seven abilities, they are never balanced, and B) AOE knock ups are a rather ridiculous thing to include on a champion's non-ultimate.
Rek'Sai can hop over walls, gains free vision and plants teleportation wards, and has a global teleport. She doesn't need damage on top of all that utility.
DorkunedAuras2 votesA)
(feel like I missed someone) are all inherently unbalanced?
B) 
All have AoE knockups on a basic ability.
Many, many, many champs can hop walls
A lot of champs have traps that give vision, or other ways to get vision, Rek has tremor sense, which gives less info than actual vision.
Global TP, you got me there.
The Yetii Rider1 votesA)
Yes. Elise was ridiculous in Season 3, then nerfed into nothingness. She got a single buff and became pick or ban again, and went through another series of nerfs. Now she's gone again.
Gnar doesn't count. He can't change forms at will, so the inherent issue of 7 abilities (being able to cycle through cooldowns much easier) doesn't apply to him.
Jayce is the only form shifting character who uses mana in both forms. He is inherently unbalanced because his kit simply does not function at all since his mana pool/regeneration are no larger than anyone else.
Lee Sin is inherently unbalanced. He gets a permanent 40% AS buff from his passive since all of his abilities chain together perfectly. He has too much mobility.
Nidalee is another champion that is inherently unbalanced. When her AD form is viable, she abuses her chaining of seven cooldowns to have a permanent Trinity Force/Iceborn Gauntlet up. When her AP form is viable, she is able to use Luden's Echo to inflict large AOE damage from a ridiculous range.
B)
Many, many, many champs can hop walls
A lot of champs have traps that give vision, or other ways to get vision, Rek has tremor sense, which gives less info than actual vision.
Global TP, you got me there.
Corki's AOE knock up has an 8 minute cooldown, which is much longer than most ultimates.
Everyone else is either much less tanky or much less mobile than her. A mobile tank is really Rek'sai's unique identity.
Spaceman5pff2 votesI almost cried laughing at the part where you said Elise is gone again LMFAO
Arakadia2 votesProbably ignored for a while. Like Swain :D
Frius6 votesskarner 3rd of 4th rework ?haha ha h ah a ha
just riot things.
Lord Galvatron2 votesThe Skarner rework was not a failure in any way shape or form. The only problem was that he was massively overbuffed when they released him because the PBE consists of…. yea I'm not going to go over that can of worms. Skarner is currently enjoying a nice 52% avg win rate in Plat. to Challenger. (Dem sources: https://champion.gg/champion/Skarner ). Despite having a rough start at first, he is MUCH better then before the Juggernaught update where he was complete garbo ever since they nerfed Cinderhulk the 1st time around. Yes, he has a somewhat gimmicky mini-game which irked many people, but you soon realize that you become the king of the Jg when you and your team have control of a spire. You instantly become Sanic and feel like you have a Trinity force with the atk. speed buff the spire gives you. This is not including the vision it gives you when you cap it which is a really nice playing Skarner. I could go on and on how the rework was what Skarner needed (and yes it did have some problems, but then again nothing is perfect).
I cannot stay the same for Mordekaiser however and that was just more then just messing with how Mordekaiser was played. It was also poor insight with the following of the Marksmen reworks, and how they attempted to make a Melee caster ADC viable right before they literally supercharged the ADC's that Morde had to contend with.
With this "VGU" group, I'm willing to bet money that Skarner will not be looked at again this season with the intention of seriously reworking him. With Morde I'm less certain because of the mess they made with him. I believe that its up to the community, and how much of an uproar they make. Best case scenario is they will look at him again during the mage rework and change him a bit.
Fat Bastard GOD1 votes 
DiebusterFan2 votes"Report Mord for building Tear."
Fat Bastard GOD2 votesbut it helps me regen my sheild plz :(
