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Real talk: People undervalue supports in this community

chipndip1··3 votes·415 views

No, don't go out and hug your support friend and tell them they're remembered, because that isn't my point. My point is that people around here SERIOUSLY do not consider supports for all that much when it comes to game balance. Lemme explain:

Do we honestly think Sona's lack of counter-play or mechanical depth as a champion is really healthy design? Do we honestly think it's good design for Blitz's entire value as a champion to be embedded into one single ability, his Q, while his ult is basically a basic ability rather than an "ultimate move"? Is it really the mark of a well-made champion when Janna just will not keep her scantily clad ass off the number 1 spot no matter how many times Riot literally BEGS her to stay balanced? While we're at it, why does Lulu still look less like a Yordle and more like a Purpleberry with eyes? Yet all we care about is the balance of...everyone else. Cait's strong? Backlash. Draven's fucking strong? Backlash. Fiora has a 51% win rate? Backlash. Janna has a 55% Diamond win rate? I haven't seen a damn thread concerning her or anything she utilizes yet EXCEPT FOR MY OWN concerning Amulet Coin (not even Janna herself). Soraka's also following her up the win rates, and Sona's highest win rate gold item is now the coin line, rather than STE. Yet no one gives a shit. No one cares that Janna's insane again. No one cares that the coin line is basically making STE a fading memory for enchanters with all that gold granted just for idling in lane, then idling near dying opponents after pressing your shield button once.

Redemption and Locket were kind of the same. I would make threads calling these items out, and the main replies I got were that the items were fine as they were. A long time later, they got their synergy nerfed, but it's crazy how you can sit and look at something that's blatantly broken, but just because it's related to supports, it feels like only you can see it.

And if you don't believe me, just ask why people don't ban Janna despite her MASSIVE (again) win rate. "Oh, she's not BROKEN BROKEN like Draven is. Fuck that guy."...but if she's winning more than ANYONE IN THE GAME, isn't she fucking broken? It doesn't matter if she isn't directly killing you or not, if her general win rate is 55% in even Diamond elo, is that not a major issue that someone should care about? Every time Janna's out of line she gets to float on by under the radar without anyone even bothering to look in her direction. No one cares to say "Maybe the game play of these older enchanters could use some work to be less static and full of stat-checks." No one cares to say "Maybe it's bullshit that Janna pretty much covers ALL your defensive needs as one champion." But I care to ask "Why do you guys not care?"

20 Comments

ValyrianBlade2 votes

Well, at first I thought you were talking about support players - and I came to say that in the majority of my games the support player gets the 3+ honors ribbon. Which is ridiculous when in some of these games they don't say a word all game and other people are being positive and doing well. Yet the supports get the votes in general - the IDK who to vote for so support vote.

Now, on to your actual point? Supports are typically not considered broken because even when they have high win rates, you still feel like your individual play can win against them. There's never a support who gets fed off your ally and proceeds to wreck you all game without you having the chance. It's just not the same as a Zed or LeBlanc getting fed and the ADC basically doesn't even get to play because he's instantly dead as soon as he's spotted.

Is it necessarily healthy when Janna has the highest win rate in the game? IDK. Maybe it's fine. She's been around for a long time so perhaps people know how to play her really well. Her kit is pretty straightforward so it doesn't take long to learn her. She excels when the meta favors her, not because she creates the meta. She responds to dive comps and general strategies that need disengage. Does that mean she's balanced? Not necessarily. A 55% win rate on her doesn't mean she's necessarily imbalanced though. She may just be strong.

chipndip12 votes

So lemme get this straight...

Janna has a 55% general win rate, meaning anyone can just pick her up, play her, and do well, meaning she's the biggest freelo champ in the game: "Idk she's been around for a while/Divers are meta right now (when that's not even close)/She's protecting top tier adcs (Which every support does)/She might just be 'in the meta.'

Any carry champ touches a 51% general win rate: Entire boards just will not shut up until said champ is brought to 48% general win rate or lower.

Lux gets buffs at a 46% general win rate: I'm already seeing people telling Riot to stop buffing Lux, and that she "doesn't need buffs".

You wanna know the REAL reason I made this thread? Because community perception of support champion power is warped. MASSIVELY warped. You guys ALWAYS have an excuse for the most LUDICROUS shit when it comes to overpowered things in the support role, meanwhile if it's a carry role, I got people going "TRUE DAMAGE SHOULDN'T BE IN THE GAME!" It's blatantly daffy. NO ONE would stand for this if Janna traded places with a mid laner, or a top laner, or a marksman, or a jungler, but because it's a support champ like Janna, no one cares. Here you are reinforcing that point, with an upvote. It's laughable...truly laughable. Fact is that Janna NEVER stops being strong. She NEVER stops being meta. I can't remember the last time she's gone as long as even one solid month without being one of the highest win rate supports in the game, if not the blatant highest, and thus being one of the highest win rate champs by proxy, no matter what bs about "metas" people want to throw around.

Raoul1 votes

A Supports Winrate has nothing to do with the champion itself being OP. A Supports winrate depends on how many comps the champ can work with.

Janna is a very basic champion. All of her Abilities are very simple and straigt forward, but because of that, they fit in every team comp.

Her passive makes people faster, i cant name one champion who wouldnt want that. Her Q is an AoE CC, again, works with every comp. can be used offensivly or defensivly. Her W makes her faster. Her E is a Shield that gives bonus AD. Every ADC will love you. And her R is a Teamfight reset.

None of her spells are that special or strong to a point where your "WHAAA SO OP" tears are justified.

Janna has the best winrate because you can pick her into every team comp and just protect the ADC. ADCs are super broken right now, so of course the Support who is able to protect them best has the highest Winrate in the game. And thats Janna.

Similar thing with you Sona QQ.

You are right, there is little counterplay to Sona, other than any Assassin just coughing in her general direction to make her drop dead, but at the same toime Sona also has absolutely no PLAYMAKING potential.

Other than your Ultimate you have nothing that can somehow change how a game goes in any meaningfiul way, you just keep mashin QWEQWEQWEQWE and hope the enemy team dies before yours. The biggest Decisionmaking with Sona is if you want to use your W or your E with your passive...

chipndip11 votes

"Janna works in a shit ton of team comps because she does basically every defensive function a support can do outside of blatant invincibility, all from a comfy range away from divers and assassins while using a gold item that gives her a fast track on her build for doing nothing except idling in a bush, and thus wins more than most, if not all, champs in the game in most patches. This is fine. Perfectly fine and balanced. No changes necessary."

About right?

Raoul1 votes

If janna stays at a safe Distance, she can really only use her Shield, all her other Abilities would become useless.

On top of that, staying too far behind makes you and easy target for flankers.

She gets gold at the same rate as any other support, so that one is just plain BS.

Honestly, you seem to be nothing more than someone who looked at the top winrate champion and decided to make a QQ thread about that champion.

If you actually belive that Janna, as a champion, is OP compared to other champions, you are really beyond all help.

She is easy to pick up and easy to play and you cant do much wrong with her. That equals a good winrate.

You suck with Thresh, you become useless. You suck with Janna, you still do good for your team, as long as you can click your ADC.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

If janna stays at a safe Distance, she can really only use her Shield, all her other Abilities would become useless.

Q's range is fine

R and W are primarily for disengage. If she's in a position where she doesn't need to use them, you're doing everything right.

On top of that, staying too far behind makes you and easy target for flankers.

You're Janna...why would Janna really care about flanks?

She gets gold at the same rate as any other support, so that one is just plain BS.

No, coin gets gold for:

  • Any cannon minion.

  • About one gold coin per wave.

  • When the quest is completed, any kill or assist.

After the initial 650 gold, you skyrocket in gold gain.

Honestly, you seem to be nothing more than someone who looked at the top winrate champion and decided to make a QQ thread about that champion.

If you actually belive that Janna, as a champion, is OP compared to other champions, you are really beyond all help.

Just emphasizing the point.

Raoul1 votes

And coin is a Janna only item?

Ok, I am willing to listen.

Now explain to me why you think Janna is OP, WITHOUT using her winrate as an Argument. Explain to me what exactly she does that she can do so much better than other champions that she is to be considered broken.

Bonus point if you explain me why a champion as OP as you make Janna out to be sees exactly 0 play in LCS.

chipndip11 votes

You're basically giving me grounds to say even Lux is op right now, given that you're scrapping the primary indicator of a champ's power level being too high or low, which is that champ's general win rate, solely because you're clueless enough to not realize the significance of statistics.

REGARDLESS, you and I both know what Janna does. If I go into listing all her traits and spells, you're going to go into saying shit like "but I could maybe land a Blitz hook" or whatever on each one, and it'll be an endless back-and-forth where you just stubbornly ignore the blatant fact that whatever Janna does, regardless of what it is, is winning games more than most, if not all, champs in the game. THAT is the important part. We COULD go into how she has basically every defensive function a support could ask for outside of blatant invincibility with a low difficulty floor, or how she doesn't have to risk her neck to influence her laning phase, or how the coin line gives Janna oodles of gold for doing practically nothing to earn it, but the point is that whatever it is she does, regardless of the details of those things, wins 55% of games on Janna with no concern over games played on Janna. These stats suggest Janna's more freelo than any champ frequently complained about on the boards.

You being blind to that fact just emphasizes the point in my OP even more.

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

300 + 150% AP aoe heal at first rank with a knockback is fine. What'chu on about?

The problem with Boards is everyone wants to be 'right,' without always keeping aware of what is truthful.

chipndip11 votes

Which is only emphasized by this "Win rates don't matter" mentality. It's almost the sheer equivalent of dissing fact checkers for doing their jobs (it's sad that's a job now).

Raoul1 votes

Ok, lets for a second say i would agree shes op as you say... Why does she have absolutely zero presence in competitive play then? If she was a free won laning phase as you claim, shouldnt she be either pick or ban in any match where a price money is on the line?

chipndip11 votes

Because LoL, for some crazy reason, is divided into multiple balancing "areas": Pros, high elo, and low elo. Some things are really great in the pro scene, like Varus, Ashe, tanks in general, Syndra, Orianna, etc., but they may be average strength or straight bad in solo queue. To boot, balance is again divided between low elo for the casual/beginner scene and high elo. Riot plays this balancing act with the mentality that if something is too good for one level of play or generally stomping in all of them, it gets nerfed.

That said, Janna's straight up defense and 0 offense. On top of that she's been nothing but nerfed over and over. STILL doesn't keep the nature of her kit from just bubbling to the surface over time, but it proved to be enough to at least spare the pro scene...for now, anyway. In solo queue, however, her kit's just not healthy.

In other words, her kit is becoming more and more like Sona's. Organized pro play could deal with it, but not disorganized solo queue play.

Raoul1 votes

Listen, I will agree that Janna is most likely the best Support in the game for Solo Queue. But that doesnt maker her OP. Even the best Support in the game is still just a support. The worst champion of any other role could beat Janna every day.

I am a Support Main myself, and trust me when I say that the winrate of supports means nothing compared to other roles. Because Supports dont win game. You help others to win, but you yourself, you have only minimal influence.

Janna protects ADCs. Thats her whole deal, thats her whole kit. Its an easy kit you cant really mess up, with 2 point and click abilities and a panic button.

ADCs on the other hand win games. If Janna manages to make the ADC live just a few seconds longer in a Teamfight, the ADC can 2 hit another target.

But that doesnt mean Janna herself is broken in any way. Shes just the support that happens to be designed around babysitting the strongest role in the game better than anyone else.

If RIOT would EVER balance the ADC role, Jannas Winrate would drop too.

If you truly belive she is an OP champion, then just ban her in your games. Unless of course you think that would be a waste, in which case I ask again, is she really OP if she is not even worth a ban?

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Listen, I will agree that Janna is most likely the best Support in the game for Solo Queue. But that doesnt maker her OP. Even the best Support in the game is still just a support. The worst champion of any other role could beat Janna every day.

I am a Support Main myself, and trust me when I say that the winrate of supports means nothing compared to other roles. Because Supports dont win game. You help others to win, but you yourself, you have only minimal influence.

We're done here.

Raoul1 votes

Yeah, its kinda impossible to talk to you, no matter what kind of argument I bring, you just end up with "But her winrate" over and over again.

Darkdemon6531 votes

Undervalue? Perhaps. Still the weakest link of the team? Absolutely.

Let me ask you a question. If you HAD TO take a 4v5, which person on your team would you prefer to be the one to leave? Yes, the support. That is the correct answer every single time in every situation without question. That is a problem.

chipndip11 votes

That's becoming less and less true as time goes on, if I have to be honest with you. Like, if it's a 4v5 and it's late game, I'd rather my Elise/Lee Sin leave than my support, depending on who that support is. Someone like Rakan, Sona, or Taric in the late game is going to benefit you way better later on than an early game carry, especially if that early game carry isn't fed.

But that isn't even the point of this thread. Did you even read it?

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

That's becoming less and less true as time goes on, if I have to be honest with you. Like, if it's a 4v5 and it's late game, I'd rather my Elise/Lee Sin leave than my support, depending on who that support is.

It absolutely is becoming less true, and I praise Riot for their attempts. I hope we reach a day where the answer to that question is 20% for every role and depends entirely on the team comps.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

The biggest issue here is hidden power.

Players don't complain because champions are OP. They complain when they are frustrated with a champion. Janna isn't frustrating, simply because most of the stuff she does looks like someone else's play.

If Janna's adc gets fed from her shields and extra AD, you don't think "damn that Janna! All that free AD with a huge shield? It's just not fair!"

That doesn't really address your concern, but it does answer your question. That's why people don't complain; they just don't see all the power she's bringing.

Debonair Trynd1 votes

You are right my friend.Laning with vayne as braum.I land the Q ,I flash ,I exaust ,I ult ,I e to save her,she gets fed,says to me that I got carried.Vayne gets 3x honored .The end :)

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