And they can't even function as an efficient farmer because they have to run all over the map collecting marks.
Add on top of that they are a needy jungler who requires aid for deep marks and cannot front line.
Teridax6829 votesRequiring a marksman build as a jungler would have been a major handicap a few seasons ago, but marksman builds are currently among the cheapest in the game, second only to support builds. I agree that Kindred doesn't feel the best, and for several of the reasons you mentioned, though I don't think it's their itemization that's the issue.
I may not be the biggest expert on Kindred, but from what I've seen their biggest problem right now is that they feel high-risk yet low-reward. Getting marks on enemy champions or in the enemy jungle can be very difficult, and is so heavily telegraphed that it's easy for an organized team to predict their movements and kill them. Getting help from teammates saps influence from the lanes, which is currently not an option at a time when leaving lane for even a short while can risk having the opposing laner deal massive damage to their tower. It's very easy to shut Kindred down, and even if they do manage to successfully get enough stacks, there are many more marksmen out there who can scale harder and more reliably.
I also think a large part of the current issue with Kindred is that they simply do not fit at all well in the current jungling meta: right now, we're back to an early-heavy, gank-heavy meta where the most successful junglers are those who can abandon farming for the entire laning phase, and gank lanes non-stop in order to get the snowball rolling. Kindred, by contrast, can't afford to do that, and in fact needs the assistance of their laners in order to not fall behind. They do gain some decent bonuses from their stacks, but that currently pales in comparison to the stat advantages laners can get if they snowball early on, particularly in bot lane. Because of this, buffing Kindred may not in fact be the most efficient solution, because once the meta eventually shifts and leaves more room for junglers who can take the time to make themselves scale, they're likely going to end up becoming far too dominant.
Kaìju6 votesThe issue is that crit items that are needed like IE are still expensive on a jungler since they need multiple parts to come online. IE plus Zeal is about 4600 gold, compare that to just a warrior enchant with boots that's about 3500? Skirmishers is 1600, the enchant is another 1200 let's say, 2800, plus 300, 3100. Lee Sin has a better early game on a cheaper budget. Sure you get more range and the crits but if you want a scaling jungler you can just pick Warwick or someone else. Kindred does benefit from crit true but her most popular builds don't even get it. Her most popular build is Tri force with Warrior and raw AD so you spam Q in your W and just proc Tri constantly.
Kindred needs a new passive, you can't make a marksmen with power tied to randomnes.
Teridax681 votesThis is true, IE itself is both a fairly expensive item and a huge part of a marksman's item-based power, a fact that often gets overlooked when comparing different build costs. In this respect, making Kindred more dependent on crit, rather than on-hit damage, as was previously the case (which also allowed them a smoother transition through Bloodrazor) definitely made their power progression much more awkward. I also agree that Kindred's jungle bounties aren't implemented in the best way, because contrary to Riot's thoughts on RNG, in practice they often end up having their mark linger on camps that either cannot be reasonably captured, or have already been taken long before they had a chance to take it.
To some larger extent, I think there is also a fundamental contradiction in Kindred in that their innate is all about making them scale, yet they were designed from the ground up to be this very early game-focused marksman, with tremendous kiting power and even sustain to let them clear and gank properly. Right now, they're in this middling state where they're not really dominant enough early to compete with hyper-gankers, but don't scale well enough into the late game either to justify picking them over a tank or most other marksmen. I think Riot may end up being forced to have to pick a direction and make them either an early game bully, in which case they should have another passive, or a carry, in which case their kiting power should likely be made to scale over game length as well.
What Is Smite2 votesTBH when I play Kindred in the Jungle I actually feel ok with building her similar to an ADC, marks are not so much of an issue since Sudden Impact gives you quite a bit of dueling power early in the game allowing you to just go after champions for the marks, adding Press The Attack ontop of that with your E critting champs under 15% HP in addition to that 12% damage boost from Press The Attack you can secure kills quite easily when you're suppose to be your weakest.
WolfChases1 votesAcyually Kindred is much better with Predator. Try it for one game and youll see. predator gives you insane chasing and ganking potential eatly to mid game and their damage is better late game with domination runes.
What Is Smite1 votesI have tried it, and my playstyle is not to chase down kills, but rather play more with an assassin's mindset of waiting for the prey to make a mistake and blow them up for it. That's why i prefer PTA over Predator
WolfChases1 votesThats what I am talking about. Kindreds overall damage and burst is much better with domination. Pta is good in theory but in fact Predator and Harvest are better. That burst of lethality you get after the Q is insane with Dominatiom.
What Is Smite1 votesI'd just say it's all down to preferences, I'm still taking sudden impact when i take domination as my secondary runeset
DeusVult4 votesSo what you are saying is that Kindred isn't an early game jungler...
in a meta where games are usually decided by 10-15 minutes.
Lee is still decent late game but no where near as strong as he is in the first 15 minutes of the game when champs dont have armor or defensive items, etc. A late game kindred is a nightmare, even moreso if kindred can get stacks.
They both have their niche, but kindred isn't in a good spot atm because the meta doesnt favor her playstyle.
WolfChases1 votesKinda agree. Its not that much about the itemisation. Kindred is not the only jungler that uses marksman build. For example Graves also uses marksman items yet he does not have any problem and is better than Kindred in almost everything. Assassins also use similar builds as marksmans, Kha, Rengar, glass Nocturne, yet they are all better than Kindred.
The major problem with Kindred is their weak early game in combination with their passive that forces them to be agressive early game. Also, getting marks is not anything speciall as well, you aint gonna notice any major ramp in power untill you reach 6+ stacks. Kindred's first 4-6 stacks are just a simple QOL and 4 stacks kindred should actually be Kindred without stacks imo.
When you play against Kindred you should feel the same tilt as you feel when playing against Shaco, you should feel countered as you are playing jungle against gardcore counterjungler you.....you can easily counterjungle Kindred without any fear.
Even as a hardcore jungler I still hate Shaco, when I see him I know that my jungle is gonna be in the mess unless I WORK HARD TO COUNTERPLAY AND PREDICT UNPREDICTABLE SHACO while Kindred is so damn predictable.
Kaìju1 votesDefine marksmen build? Because she is designed to build crit, what other jungler builds 80% crit?
WolfChases1 votesI am talking about prices, not about a specific type of build. Building crit or raw damage on equall price requires the same amount farm and effort.
Kaìju1 votesTrue they have similar requirements but they give very different power outputs. Crit is much more powerful than raw damage later.
Flawless Fetus1 votesThey're cheap, but come on. They're more expensive than AD assassin builds. By a hefty amount. Lol.
ZapMyHeart1 votesI also think a large part of the current issue with Kindred is that they simply do not fit at all well in the current jungling meta: right now, we're back to an early-heavy, gank-heavy meta where the most successful junglers are those who can abandon farming for the entire laning phase, and gank lanes non-stop in order to get the snowball rolling. Kindred, by contrast, can't afford to do that, and in fact needs the assistance of their laners in order to not fall behind. They do gain some decent bonuses from their stacks, but that currently pales in comparison to the stat advantages laners can get if they snowball early on, particularly in bot lane. Because of this, buffing Kindred may not in fact be the most efficient solution, because once the meta eventually shifts and leaves more room for junglers who can take the time to make themselves scale, they're likely going to end up becoming far too dominant.
I doubt it. Kindred is not considered a top-tier farming-type jungler (e.g Shyvana, Ivern) that would suddenly explode in popularity if the meta shifts to farming jungle instead. She just happens to be forced to stay in the jungle because it's easier to get marks that way + she needs a lot of farm in order to not fall behind. Her marks are a hinderance because it has a lot of power tied to it that it forces the rest of her kit to be sub-par. On top of that, it's extremely restrictive to acquire said marks.
Unlike other feast-or-famine type champions, her famine is extremely god awful and you might as well stay in the fountain because once you are behind, you won't be coming back ever. When feasting, you are still barely ahead of a champion who only have 1 or 2 kills under their belt. The reason is because Kindred's kit doesn't reward your good plays; only making you somewhat playable.
Main issue with Kindred is that she can't farm marks easily enough. Jungle marks are alright, but champion marks are disgustingly difficult to obtain. The CD to activate is way too high (makes Eve's W look quaint in comparison) and the downtime to remark is just pathetically long; might as well not gank because if you mark someone wrong, you're shit out of luck for the next couple of minutes. Even if you play well, you can't remark the same enemy champion to camp them out because hurr durr needs counterplay (meanwhile, the enemy jungler can camp a lane all day long and gain a huge benefit out of that). Kindred is the only champion in the game that dissuades camping.
If Kindred doesn't get her 4 Marks ASAP, she's useless. When she gets her 4 marks, she's still behind. Says a lot about her kit.
WolfChases1 votesAs a Kindred main I agree on everything you said. Exactly! If you dont get 4 marks asap you are screwed and even 4 marks aren't enough to make you relevant. Do you know what is the best way to counterplay Kindred and make sure they aint gonna get 1st mark? Let me give you one tip. When you play against her just do your 1st buff and 1 small camp than go ASAP for that 1st scuttle crab mark before Kindred finishes their 2nd buff and than go do your own 2nd buff. That happens to me every single time when I play against any slightly competitive jungler and its heartbraking. Theres no chance you can even contest it, its just gone before you reach it.
Arkilusal1 votesNot sure if this would help (And for that matter I don't Jungle.), but to my understanding the trouble is natural jungle paths for the enemy blocks Kindred's RNG paths which are already going to be slower/less effective to begin with... What if Kindred's Marks were reversed? Lamb (the player) chooses what jungle camps to mark, while Wolf (RNG) Marks the champions? This, I'd think would work out much better- Lamb marking means no more LOL RNG paths where Kindred ends up having to go from top Raptors to bottom Krugs back to right-side Wolves before heading to Left-side Gromp when Faker is sitting mid with Zoe, and Wolf means instead of being telegraphed 'hey I'm coming to gank you!' it might be more 'hey I might gank you ooor maybe your top lane is overextended and I'll go grab him because I'm closeby.' Granted, there still can be badtimes where Wolf asks you to gank a enemy Renekton when your lanes is GP, but now the onus for dealing with marks hopefully is more on the laner since it's less likely that Kindred will have planned to go for them as opposed to being a bonus objective.
WolfChases6 votesAs a Kindred main who changed summoner name just because of Kindred I agree on everything people said here and with the OP as well. Kindred is really weak without marks even after the rework and getting marks is hard even tho I always manage to get up to 6+ stacks. I will list some problems with Kindred as I have a lot of experience on that champion.
Their early game is weak for the amount of risk they have to take in order to properly execute early game. Coubterjungling wast majority of junglers is a suicide for Kindred as they are simply stronger.
Getting marks on champion kills and assists is fine and satisfying, but farming marks on camps forces you to abandon an open gank on a lane. You cant blame Kindred as marks are still so important for them. You can skip 2-3 marks at max.
Her base stats are complete garbage and they easily fall behind after a slight misstake and theres close to no comeback.
Eadily countered if enemy jungler knows how to play and it doesnt matter if you are good or bad on Kindred. When I play against Kindred I always do my 1st buff and predict their first scuttle, take it berore they reach it and than do my 2nd buff. Can you imagine Kindred seing that their 1st mark....yea 1st mark next to their 2nd buff is GONE before they killed that 2nd buff? Its devastating.
How to fix Kindred and make them jungler that is rewarding to play? I have 3 solutions.
1st one: Give them 20-30 seconds lead on the camp marks. I dont care if enemies can see their camps marked but Kindred should be able to see it before anyone else. Its already risky to go for that enemy kruggs or gromp, let Kindred see it 30 seconds before anyone else so they can plan it, gank or a mark. It could also encourage enemy junglers to ward their camps often which offers good counterplay.
2nd solution: remove kindreds passive on enemy camps and neutral monsters such are Herald, Dragon and Baron, as a compensation, buff their base stats and slightly increase range on their Q. As for champion marks, leave them as they are, they are fine and its just 5 anyways, you aint gonna get all 5.
3rd solution: Same as 2nd, remove camp marks, compensate Kindred the same way as in 2nd solution but when it comes to kill/assist marks, give them something unique, similar to Kaynes passive. If Kindred gets 4-5 marks on kills or assists on melee champions Lamb abilities (Q) get increased range and her R should in that case give bonus MS to all her allies inside of it as well as Kindred, but if Kindred gets most of their marks against ranged champions, her W and E get something special, like root, fear or something that could help them hunt ranged champions. That also perfectly fits Kindreds theme as Eternal hunters and junglers.
Long storry short, passive is what makes Kindred hard to balance, the rest of their kit os fine as it is.
SpecterVonBaren4 votesThe main issue with Kindred and the issue that they've had since release is that there's no reason to pick them outside of just liking their theme or when they're overpowered. You'll always have a marksman in the bot lane and that marksman is the one with a support to be their bodyguard, Kindred has to do everything by themselves and thus has all the risks associated with being a marksman.
What reason IS there to pick them? Their kit isn't that unique in terms of what it provides their team aside from their ult and in that case there are champs without the squishiness of a marksman that have similarly powerful utility moves that you could pick instead.
Compare them to Ivern, for instance, Ivern is clearly designed for the jungling role and he has unique abilities that help him do that, Kindred's unique contribution is seemingly just that they're a marksman that can jungle, which isn't enough of a reason to pick them.
WolfChases1 votesHmm...I agree that Kindred doesn't provide anything speciall for their team, but Kindred are as well ak Ivern, champion that is designed for jungling according to their theme and lore. It would just be so awkward to play Kindred in lane. That are eternal hunters who are supposed to show out of nowhere and mark your destiny.
SpecterVonBaren1 votesYeah but aside from their passive their kit doesn't have anything in it that makes them have any special reason for jungling, I'd even argue that their q+w combo is better suited for use in lane than in the jungle.
WolfChases1 votesTheir lore? Kindred are hunters who shows up out of nowhere and lol, they are not present al the time, they just show up, sooooo its jungler. As for the rest of their kit, there is no "Jungle only kit" in this game except maybe Iverns kit and thats all, every other jungler in this game has kit that works in lane as well. With Evelyn being exception as well.
Thunderneedle4 votesGood thing marksmen items are ridiculously underpriced
WolfChases2 votesStill not for a jungler.
Elmore Mage2 votesI am a Kindred main and I have yet to see anyone play Kindred good at all especially after RedKind quit League, I am the only good Kindred I have seen since season 6 and even then I only saw 1 or 2 good ones every single person I see play them feeds and doesn't build them right but at the same time they are very reliant on game sense but I still have a few problems like...
Wayyyy to slow Her E slow is way to short and is considered a projectile so it can be blocked but things like Yasuo Wall Is so extremely late game but has to go into the enemy jungle 5 minutes in to get marks so they can snowball Their lvl 3 base health is 666
and one thing I will never understand is why the took away the option to place your ultimate on an ally
this is just my two cents
lolipopevelynn2 votes[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Rr5Ec257,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-25T13:37:57.229+0000)
And they can't even function as an efficient farmer because they have to run all over the map collecting marks.
Add on top of that they are a needy jungler who requires aid for deep marks and cannot front line.
are cheap items tho.
people say ADC items are "expensive" but honestly, compared to everyone else, ADC items are cheap by comparison. for crit ADCs in particular the most expensive item they are buying is 
AD casters like ezreal and corki are probably exceptions tho since they dont typically build crit.
now compare that to a brusier build like jax 
even a standard burst mage build is more expensive where as once upon a time that wasnt the case.
dont ever say "marksmen/ADC items are expensive" until you actually play a class other than ADC.
DorkunedAuras1 votesJax with ?
Try 
(Which is still expensive as hell)
AirKingNeo1 votesI already said this when they fucked her up with a 'rework' that didn't fix anything.
Critical strike doesn't work on junglers from a fundamental level.
SanKakU1 votesI don't think you're wrong.
The Yetii Rider1 votesIf Kindred needs a marksman build, play her as a marksman. There's nothing stopping you from selecting her as a bot laner. Is she weak in that role? Yes. So are many other champions. If the player is skilled enough, he can farm up without feeding.
WolfChases1 votesWhy the living hell would you play Kindred bot lane??? Tell me one single reason that backs up your statement?
The Yetii Rider1 votesThe bigger question is "why are you playing Kindred at all", if we're going purely on power or satisfaction.
If you love your one trick, you play them in the way that works. If you can't make Kindred work as a jungler, then play her as a marksman. The reason you play her bot is to get more gold, as you've complained about. The point is that YOU as a player want to play her, and she's having difficulty in the jungle.
WolfChases1 votesDude, Kindred sucks at Bot. Why would you play Kindred bot if there are champions designed for that role?
The Yetii Rider1 votesKindred sucks at everything. The reason you would play Kindred bot is because she can get gold she can't get in the jungle. "Bad" is not an excuse, she's bad in the jungle too.
WolfChases1 votesI agree that Kindred are bad, but they are far better in the jungle believe me. I am pretty much playing ONLY KINDRED, I am not OTP but I barely play another champion but the problem is that Kindred were overnerfed. They just should not deppend on their passive that much.
The Yetii Rider1 votesI disagree. See, what you're saying here is "make Kindred a better jungler", and my opinion is "ranged junglers were a mistake to begin with", which is a sentiment that Riot seems to share considering they basically removed Nidalee's ability to jungle and gutted Graves and Kindred.
Kindred should not be able to invade more easily, she should be changed to get stacks more easily in lane and lose her monster attack speed slow to get a bit more power into her arrows. She should also have her arrows fire in a skill shot like Twisted Fate's Wild Card, so that she has less reliability and can get more damage in exchange. Just remove her ability to jungle and make her a laner like every other marksman.
If you want her to stay as a jungle, she needs to stay trash. That's just the nature of range over melee.
Tychusfindlay9181 votesAnd on top of that if theyre buffed to be able to contest marks alone they will literally own the fucking jungle like they did when they were released
WolfChases1 votesLiterally noone gere ashs for a buff on Kindred. Pretty much everyone is mad about them being way too weak to do what they are supposed to do in order to stary relevant and its COUNTERJUNGLING. I am a Kindred main and I am so sad I cant play against you. You pick Kindred, Ill pick any jungler except 100% tanks like Njnu, Sejuani or Zac and believe me, I will make you ragequit at 10 minute mark. Its not only about contesting marks agains enemy jungler in straight 1v1 scenario. Let me tell you something. Every single slightly competitive jungler knows when the 1st Kindred mark is going to show up, they will do their 1st buff, one small camp and go for Scuttle crab to kill it before Kindred reaches her 2nd buff. In order to prevent that, kindred has to skip one camp and do their buffs first and than go ASAP for a scuttle to contest it 1v1 on lvl 2 only. Kindred withoul lvl 3 can't contest their 1st mark against literally ANY champion because they do low damage without their E and Kindred has to take their W lvl 1 and Q on lvl 2. Wish you GL against that lvl 2 Lee Sin, Udyr, Shywana or Xin as lvl 2 Kindred :3
Tychusfindlay9181 votesLiterally noone gere ashs for a buff on Kindred. Pretty much everyone is mad about them being way too weak to do what they are supposed to do in order to stary relevant and its COUNTERJUNGLING. I am a Kindred main and I am so sad I cant play against you. You pick Kindred, Ill pick any jungler except 100% tanks like Njnu, Sejuani or Zac and believe me, I will make you ragequit at 10 minute mark. Its not only about contesting marks agains enemy jungler in straight 1v1 scenario. Let me tell you something. Every single slightly competitive jungler knows when the 1st Kindred mark is going to show up, they will do their 1st buff, one small camp and go for Scuttle crab to kill it before Kindred reaches her 2nd buff. In order to prevent that, kindred has to skip one camp and do their buffs first and than go ASAP for a scuttle to contest it 1v1 on lvl 2 only. Kindred withoul lvl 3 can't contest their 1st mark against literally ANY champion because they do low damage without their E and Kindred has to take their W lvl 1 and Q on lvl 2. Wish you GL against that lvl 2 Lee Sin, Udyr, Shywana or Xin as lvl 2 Kindred :3
I dont give a fuck pal.
I pray to god kindred stays in the fucking dirt until her design is less toxic.
PopcornBunni1 votesI still build them 
. It doesn't have the synergy with % current health damage from ther passive stacks any more, but the new stacks giving attack speed and range still have strong synergy with them. Bloodrazor over Warrior makes their clears substantially faster as well, which solves a part of the income issue.
(Full build is usually something like 
)
Cloud2731 votesThere is nothing wrong with Kindred. Marksmen items are expensive, and you shouldn't be able to afford them on a jungler unless you get EXTREMELY fed.
Azadethe1 votesJungle's budget is higher than an adc's and Kindred has the longest attack range in the game once stacked. So no. She's not weak. She's actually oppressive once you learn her. She's like a mix between Kalista and Tristana; can side step everything and has longest adc range in the game.
Even champs like Udyr who used to counter her, no longer do. She can start in on him at 900 range autos and just k Q jumping to avoid hits, while draining 13% hp per hit and before he's even near he gets hit with a massive slow now.
1eone11 votesKindred does not need a buff or to be made better in anyway because she is fine right now and so is almost every other jg champion with the exception of eve who is legit busted.
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesWAIT!!!...What if marks...Gave GOLD?!? think about it. Have less a reliance on damage from them (with higher damage ratios from items OR from natural scaling), but more gold gain for every stack. More gold for the mark, a gold multiplier for and subsequent units kills OR both! That could be a viable fix.
