Marksmen are still mandatory

Hemulen Magi··30 votes·9,954 views

Marksmen are still mandatory in the majority of team compositions. Bot lane is still treated as synonymous with ADC and ADC is still treated as synonymous with marksmen. They're more than half of the top 10 play rate champions, 9/10 of the most played bot lane champions, plenty with >50% win rate, still building crit in their top winrate builds, still viable in lanes other than bot lane (Quinn is #1 highest winrate in top lane). Marksmen honestly need a lot more nerfs to make other classes even viable 25% of the time in bot lane. Marksmen mains are simply the most spoiled and loudest playerbase in the game.

I am an angry support main who is fed up with nothing but marksmen for years. I want to be able to support other classes and I am sick of marksmen mains holding game balance hostage simply because of their number advantage due to this one champion class somehow having gotten to make up 25% of the total pick rates in the game. Marksmen need more nerfs but they're getting buffs because Riot has heard their cries and apparently they can't afford to sell a few less Ezreal skins.

By the way, yes, the current meta sucks. Buffing marksmen won't make tanks not die in 0.8 seconds though. If anything, it will make that situation worse. I agree playing marksmen and getting assassinated in 0.2 seconds with no reasonable counterplay feels like shit, but that's a separate issue. Marksmen nerfs have been a step in the right direction, but other areas of balance have gone sideways in the meantime and are making the meta suck in unrelated ways. Marksmen players begging for buffs and crit reverts are being unreasonable.

46 Comments

3 Tears8 votes

If Marksmen don't go bot, where do they go?

3 Tears1 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o40qB9a1UaQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr1_mS_i5YY

So the two marksmen that can actually defeat top laners (Vayne and Lucian) are going to go top? no other Marksmen can go top without being shit on by a competent player.

JackMcSnipeyz7 votes

"Get marksmen out of botlane im sick of no diversity!" -marksman is semi popular in other lane. "OMG MARKSMEN OP ABUSE OTHER LANES".

Marksmen are only really viable bot with a few cherry picks being viable in other lanes, every other class can go almost whenever they want even botlane now.

You see "only" marksmen in the botlane because marksmen players (yes, people like playing the class they like) can't go mid or top because they'll get shit on by any player who knows what he's doing.

The item nerfs should NOT be reverted, but the recent buff was a good step to a better balance, sorry, but i dont like my entire class being unviable in their own lane (before the buffs, they are fine now).

D357R0Y3R6 votes

[deleted]

Hemulen Magi11 votes

Apply the same standards of "playability" to other lanes/roles. How many jungle tanks are playable? How many support enchanters? How many top lane battle mages? They all have only a handful of top tier representatives if any of them are even seen above 3% play rate at any given point.

SwiftKitten886 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqcldXMz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-06-30T22:33:43.565+0000)

Apply the same standards of "playability" to other lanes/roles. How many jungle tanks are playable? How many support enchanters? How many top lane battle mages? They all have only a handful of top tier representatives if any of them are even seen above 3% play rate at any given point.

^ this exactly

i mean i had the entire year of season 7 with my main under a 46% winrate, the first 6 months of those was under 44%, and the first 3 months were under 42% and the first two two patches of that was at 38% tying the 10th lowest winrate in the history of league that wasn't hotfixed

ADC arn't "bad" thier just not so OP that no one can deal with them anymore.

and yeah some of them are in a shitty spot.

but thats goes for every single class.

what was the last time u saw Amumu Maokai Rumble Skarner Syndra ??

becuase i havent seen them in months

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

^ this exactly

i mean i had a year of season 6 with my main under a 45% winrate,the first 6 of those was under 42%, and the first 3 months were under 42% of that was at 38%. and two patches was at 38% tying the 10th lowest winrate in the history of league that wasn't hotfixed

ADC arn't "bad" thier just not so OP that no one can deal with them anymore.

and yeah some of them are in a shitty spot.

but thats goes for every single class.

what was the last time u saw Amumu Maokai Rumble Skarner Syndra ??

becuase i havent seen them in months

Rumble has actually started poping out here and there, but the rest are basically kept gutted as riot has deemed their kits to be crap and in need of reworks.

They are basically benched permanently much like Yorick used to be, lets hope they dont have to wait as long.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

They are basically benched permanently much like Yorick used to be, lets hope they dont have to wait as long.

Yeah they are probably behind the other 15 new champs that are more important....

FoxV1 votes

All the time in silver

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

All the time in silver

... umm yeah... do u think i was going to try to climb with my main at that winrate?

Attticus Finch2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqcldXMz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-06-30T22:33:43.565+0000)

Apply the same standards of "playability" to other lanes/roles. How many jungle tanks are playable? How many support enchanters? How many top lane battle mages? They all have only a handful of top tier representatives if any of them are even seen above 3% play rate at any given point.

"Champion balance is shit in other pools so it should be shit in this one too!"

lmao.

Malix Farwin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqcldXMz,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2018-07-01T05:19:14.632+0000)

"Champion balance is shit in other pools so it should be shit in this one too!"

lmao.

Thats the thing though, Bot lane balance has always been shit. Theres always been around 3-4 viable adcs and the rest crap. The only reason you realize its a problem now is because you still seeing the same 3-4 viable ADCs but also stuff that are not ADCs on top of it so its calling attention to the real issue.

You are seeing Ezreal Kaisa Lucian MissFortune now but before the adcs changes you were seeing Kaisa Jhin Tristana KogMaw the rest were still as crappy as they were before.

FoxV1 votes

Don't forgetJinx Xayah Caitlyn Twitch

Ahris8 votes

{quoted}

marksmen are still mandatory

but only 5 marksmen are playable kai sa ezreal draven mf lucian

those adcs rule bot lane and no one in both the marksman class and outside, can deal with them bot lane

Ashe is still used completitively, and so is Xayah. You also see Varus being used.

marksman is very much playable and people cry because not the entire marksman class is played(i mean they werent before too, but why now they complain even harder?)

D357R0Y3R1 votes

my bad

what i posted was totally shit and i apoligise, just few moments ago i refreshed my knowledge about the meta all top tier picks bot lane are adcs https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/L6EyAf5t-we-need-to-help-adcs

here a sarcastic thread

Sp33d Zer04 votes

You want to support other things than marksmen? Then Riot needs to implement support items that benefit things like bruisers and mages.

Support itemization has items like "Auto attacks deal extra magic damage" and "Personal healing based off your targets damage" as well as "Deal burn damage based off of your auto attacking".

Until there are real option for support to have other items, support will be the role that has its entire effective item distribution centered around marksmen.

If you want to believe marksman are "Mandatory" then go for it, but we have seen plenty of evidence in solo queue, flex queue, and pro play that state you can now run a comp without a marksman and be fine, leaving support available to build more selfishly due to not needing the specific synergy items.

Malix Farwin4 votes

I think you are confusing "Mandatory" with "optimal" and even then it only applies to the very top ones.

The two core issues that made them Mandatory were Objective control and early game laning.

The first problem was fixed a while ago, no longer need them for objective control because other classes can now do the same damage to objectives as they can

The second problem was changed recently, other classes can survive against them now that enchanters cannot shield them as well.

The second change created a new problem where the adcs that relied on a support heavily are struggling where the ones that do not are still fine. Then you have Varus who was in a bad spot well before the ADC changes to begin with so he is just his own individual problem.

Hemulen Magi1 votes

In the context of game meta, optimal and mandatory are essentially the same. Having 5 active members on your team is optimal, but you could win a 4 vs 5 despite having an afk, so it's not mandatory.

FireDrizzle3 votes

No, other carries are viable bot, atleast as long as the games stay short(which they probably will) . You may be reported for pick melee adc now because people dont like change and a lot of league players need to rage quit life.

But it's not true that marksmen are weak, marksmen mains are disportionatly whiners. Try playing fighters when adc are busted af and fighter gets bullied by tanks, or try playing tanks now.

Elohaven3 votes

MF and Draven are simply viable because Conqueror is a poorly designed rune. Quinn is just abuses everything and fits perfectly for this meta. She needs a rework and nerfs as her kit is toxic.

People play this game because they like champions - hence one tricks.

This post is ironic considering supports were also complaining they were too weak. Assassins/Bruisers/Mages have been in every League game too. Your point marksmen are always in the game is pointless by that logic.

Marksmen are not mandatory right now - that's why Morde and Swain have good winrates. Lucian got a buff specifically for him (Reaver), MF/Draven have Conqueror, Jhin has Stormrazor and like Quinn a meta favoring him, while every other marksmen is useless.

If you want marksmen to get more nerfs, then enjoy being useless as a support role for 20 minutes in lane because you're tried to botlane since botlane is a 2-player lane and your ally cannot do anything.

ADC players are asking for indirect buffs. Longer game times, nerfs/changes to damage (Conqueror, Ignite), and tower buffs. Those 3 things will make them playable again.

If your class became obsolete for most of its pool and your favorite champions were included in it, how would you feel? Your post is basically saying gut the class. Toplaners got the same treatment and Riot Tryndamere commented on how shit it felt. Now ADCs are in the same spot

KoKoboto3 votes

Quinn is cancer. Revert Quinn. I don't even consider her a marksman. All she does is fly into the enemy and kill them with AA and just one skill shot from range.

Athenes Lulu3 votes

"Support main" meanwhile top champs are Kayle, Fiddle, Shaco, and mostly junglers.

Hemulen Magi1 votes

Look at my match history and you'll see a lot of item 3401 and item 3092 and few summoner 11 when I play those champions because I play them as supports... I am a primary support, secondary jungle player and I play mostly the same champions in either position. I play Kayle as an enchanter. I play Shaco as an AP off-tank with boxes as wards. I play Fiddlesticks as a catcher support with strong poke. You obviously looked me up but didn't get the full picture. It looks odd because most of my champions are meta junglers and off-meta supports, but I am a support main and my match history is public information so you can check for yourself.

CrestfallenNight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqcldXMz,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-07-01T08:01:47.078+0000)

"Support main" meanwhile top champs are Kayle, Fiddle, Shaco, and mostly junglers.

Ok this is weird and it's one of the most recent comments I found, this isn't about the topic. Ok so I was wrong about you, you do love the same champion as I, but why'd you choose that name? Is it because people hate her? Also, you have 900k with her?

Athenes Lulu1 votes

{quoted}

Ok this is weird and it's one of the most recent comments I found, this isn't about the topic. Ok so I was wrong about you, you do love the same champion as I, but why'd you choose that name? Is it because people hate her? Also, you have 900k with her?

  1. I already knew Lulu is cancerous to play against and I want to be honest and live up to my IGN. Considering changing my name the next time I have 13k BE, though, but will still be Lulu related.
  2. Yes. Even I hate playing against one, regardless if he's good or bad at playing the champion.
  3. Yes, though I feel like I have already quit playing League. Still want to aim for 1m, though.
CrestfallenNight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqcldXMz,comment-id=001000010000,timestamp=2018-07-06T10:27:05.097+0000)

  1. I already knew Lulu is cancerous to play against and I want to be honest and live up to my IGN. Considering changing my name the next time I have 13k BE, though, but will still be Lulu related.
  2. Yes. Even I hate playing against one, regardless if he's good or bad at playing the champion.
  3. Yes, though I feel like I have already quit playing League. Still want to aim for 1m, though.

So, you're saying she's as cancerous/easy as Janna? I don't really think so, I have lost with her in lane lol Still interesting to hear. I had 200k on her.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

{quoted}

So, you're saying she's as cancerous/easy as Janna? I don't really think so, I have lost with her in lane lol Still interesting to hear. I had 200k on her.

cancerous =/= easy lol

thats like saying yasuo and zoe are easy to play and theyre actually not

CrestfallenNight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqcldXMz,comment-id=00100001000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-07T08:47:55.963+0000)

cancerous =/= easy lol

thats like saying yasuo and zoe are easy to play and theyre actually not

You deserve a smooch. [sg-lux] thanks bby

Lulu and Aery2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RqcldXMz,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-30T20:11:55.388+0000)

Marksmen are still mandatory in the majority of team compositions. Bot lane is still treated as synonymous with ADC and ADC is still treated as synonymous with marksmen.

Wow really? Maybe because those words ARE actually synonyms and the word "marksman" was just recently "invented" by Riot and by far most people still don't use it? Besides what compositions...? Compositions don't even exist in SoloQ and especially not in low elo. Same goes for meta. I don't even want waste time commenting on other nonsense...

Teridax682 votes

ADC is short for "attack damage carry", and can imply melee carries as well. Marksmen, by contrast, are only ranged. You are effectively demonstrating the very problem the OP pointed out.

Vectros2 votes

{quoted}

ADC is short for "attack damage carry", and can imply melee carries as well. Marksmen, by contrast, are only ranged. You are effectively demonstrating the very problem the OP pointed out.

Technically that is what ADC stands for, but the majority of people are talking about ranged ADC's when they say ADC, and will usually specify Melee ADC when talking about melee.

Teridax682 votes

Sure, but yet again, that points to the same problem. At the end of the day, you're just creating a name that applies only to one small subset of champions, and making it a core part of the game, which then implies that same subset is mandatory. If this is still happening even after an update that tried to make marksmen non-mandatory, then marksmen as a class are still mandatory.

ZackTheWaffleMan2 votes

Reminder that Teemo is a marksman

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Reminder that Teemo is a marksman

Teemo is a specialist actually.

He doesn't fit into any specific subclass.

saltran2 votes

NO, they are not mandatory since you could play other champs bot and have success, the reason why you mostly see adcs on your games is because most "botlane mains" are just adc mains that don't want to play mages or bruisers.

You can open botlane but you can't force the ppl to play non adc botlanes, you are a support main that want to play with non adc botlanes? Then play the non adc you, don't ask for us to play it. This is fking hilarius.

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

Marksmen are still mandatory

Marksmen will always be mandatory as long as they remain the class that is able to kill tanks the best and taking down objectives the best (i feel like i killed my English there...). I just played a game where (admittedly our teamcomp sucked ass) i was swain top, tali jungle, zed mid, bot shaco with supp fiddle and we couldnt really kill the enemy rammus.

Ahris1 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen will always be mandatory as long as they remain the class that is able to kill tanks the best and taking down objectives the best (i feel like i killed my English there...). I just played a game where (admittedly our teamcomp sucked ass) i was swain top, tali jungle, zed mid, bot shaco with supp fiddle and we couldnt really kill the enemy rammus.

Marksman will always be mandatory because of constant reliable DPS in teamfights. All they need to do is right click and be protected then they just win fights.

Other champs dont have as much reliable damage, and if they do they get massive nerfs like Cass.

Nyarlathοtep

Yep. Exactly what i said. In order to kill tanks you need constant reliable dps.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

As long as there exists a situation were tanks can only really be killed by marksmen if said tanks get past their early game somehow then the continued existence will never change.

Of course tanks are probably feeling depressed though since riot decided that the counterplay to a tank was early game abuse and outscaling which leaves a dubious chance to carry mid/early lategame provided only they dont get crushed before they can get going.

Lets face it, i doubt assassins and early game champs can ever be viable at the same time as tanks/marksmen, it just wont happen as things are now.

Would basically have to revert the tank rework, ditch runes alltogether and revert all stats changes to even stand a chance of stopping the situation of unstoppable forces vs immovable object.

Then put some power back into defensive items again, this would make the users beefier in generals and lessen the difference between say juggernauts and tanks as in juggernauts melting instantly before that geared marksman while tank stands there for a respectable time.....or forever if the marksman lacks anti tank tools.

Issue here is just like before though, tanks would lack a proper identity to separate them from other melee building tanky items......but i honestly prefer that to the current tanks that either explode or cant be killed.

BiochemicalZombi1 votes

"I am sick of marksmen mains holding game balance hostage simply because of their number advantage due to this one champion class somehow having gotten to make up 25% of the total pick rates in the game."

Who would have thought in where there is generally 1 marksman and Sometimes 2 ( From top and mid) That they would have a 25% Pickrate. Who the fuck could have known..

Funniest shit is that this guy plays a marksman in the support role which boosts the pickrate of marksman... No shit that the pickrate is near 20-25%, Theres 5 players on each team and generally its 1 and sometimes another such as lucian mid/top quinn top. Not sure if you included teemo in this but hes generally played top.

Stop pulling statistics out of your ass, its the same thing as saying the average of all champions winrates is 50% Like no shit.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

I feel the same way Hey ill play support for you playing a non marksman, or you can play a support for me playing a non marksman

Things like Kalista supp with Illaoi ADC, or Naut/Sion Supp for More APP, or Liss APC carry with any roaming sup or Azir APC with anyone

I have the most fun when I'm breaking the meta and making marksmen suffer

Send me a friend request! (Got 2 acc, so send one 2 Shamont as well

TheGreatNinx1 votes

Yea. PLease. In my elo not sure why but people thinking "omg because youtuber X did this bot lane that means we can play anything bot lane" and now it's just ruining my games. Not much can do when top pick adc's are on the enemy team or one in general and feed their asses off thinking they can pull off what challenger players can do even though their game knowledge is much more vast

Meep Man1 votes

I disagree. I think Marksman are fine as is. What we need if we truly want other classes to be consistently viable carries are items like those Fighter Items that didn't get added a few patches ago: Atma's Reckoning and Spear of Shojin.

ApollyonBainer1 votes

Im gonna say the same thing Ive told a few people. ADCs still put out some pretty high dmg. But to get that dmg you need more items. So just play better, die less, farm more. You will get to late game as long as you play smart. It rewards good play and punishes stupid plays pretty heavily.

Also who do you think you would rather play bot lane: Kaisa rushing item 3124 or Vladimir rushing item 3152 ???

More from Gameplay

More by Hemulen Magi