Here at Riot like to balance AP items

DJ S0NA··40 votes·2,699 views
  1. Nerf 75% of the AP items due to a extremely small increase of gold income in the game. (Items nerfed: Luden's Echo, Rabadon's Deathcap (a.k.a most expensive item in league), Zhonyas Deathcap (extremely huge nerf), Archangel's Staff, Rylais Crystal Scepter, Lyandry's Torment, Void Staff, Morellonomicon, Athene's Unholy Grail);

  2. Buff items like Will of the Ancients for just Vladimir re-arrange Rod of Ages for HP and mana stacking champions like Chogath , Ryze , etc, buff Abyssal Scepter for close range AP agressive champions;

  3. Nerf an AP support item because AP champions hate the extreme gold nerfs on AP items and AP laners are abusing it;


Now since i'm a support main, I LOVE Frost Queen's Claims. But AP champions taking it feels so wrong. And riot is nerfing raw stats the wrong way. -5 AP might not hurt, but it's still -5 AP (hello warrior nerf), nerfing the spooky ghosts (the right way), nerfing the mana regen was also the right way, but it's only the right way because mana potions were removed.

But THE ONLY THING IT SHOULD AND MUST BE NERFED is the passive.

Seriously, why not disable the god damn Tribute passive when killing a minion? Why did riot removed it? It just completely defeats the purpose of an AP "support" item. Obviously the active is still strong (and I admit it's too good), but now nerfing raw stats is just bad for support champions.

The hole purpose for AP laners to buy this item was for the mana regen and extremely good active. But now, getting nerfed because solo laners buying is like Swain, Karthus and Malzahar were nerfed because "DEATHFIRE TOUCH TOO OP ON THESE CHAMPIONS PLS NERF".

Sorry for the rant. It's simply unfair for AP champions and AP support champions.

TL;DR: Currently spooky ghosts nerf is OK, but nerfing raw stats like AP is wrong. Nerfing the Tribute passive to be disabled when killing a minion is the right way to balance the item.

P.S: If the current changes for FQC and Talisman goes through, i'll start using Talisman on Sona.

30 Comments

Posui Gart3 votes

It is not bought now on midlaners because of gold generation passive, it is bought because of all that stats+great active(well, a bit nerfed now). On mages, who usually cant survive meeting with enemy 1x1, the active alone is 1000 gold worthy, especially with slow that can help with escaping or landing their skillshots. And we also got AP, CDR and manaregen, even if all of it is low. So what Riot are trying to do is to force a choice on mages: safety(with FQC) or almost 2x better stats(with Morello) instead of making it a "hey, i can get FQC and still have enough stats". It is still best support item on supports who need AP and can reliably proc it(like Morgana or Brand). As for Sona-thats highly situational and is based more on your ally/enemies, "Can I poke them often enough without risk for that Spellthief?", same choice as with Thunderlord/Windspeaker for her

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Hell, I take FQC second item now on Jungle Ekko just because the item is extremely gold efficient and gives me better engage for ganks and 45 more burst damage on my combo. Honestly I agree the item is "good", but as OP said, the item is only really good because of the active and the fact Morello/Grail got dumpstered thus leaving hardly any good first item buys for mages outside of RoA (Guise nerfs are also a part in this one since the item costs 1600 now for no reason).

Posui Gart3 votes

Ehm, what? Leaving Grail aside, Morello is a great item right now. Its build is easy, you can get the part you need more first(got manaproblems-start with item 3114 , need some damage-get item 3108 ), and its stats are good. Yes, it is more expencive, but same is true for all other items. Actually, if we compare FQC to Morello-we will get: 50 AP vs 80 AP 10% cdr vs 20% cdr 100% manaregen vs 100% manaregen Goldgain passive vs heal-reduction passive Great active for immobile skillshot-based mages, and still good for others vs nothing 2200 gold vs 2550 gold

To summarize: Morello has almost 2 times more "combat" stats(especially when FQC will get their nerf), while FQC gives more "safety and farm" stats.

About Guise nerfs-well, its really bad now as an item, but Liandry is fine as a situational item. so just dont rush Guise and it is fine

DJ S0NA1 votes

Now compare FQC and Morello with their nerf and buf respectively. FQC has less 5 AP and Morello is 100 gold cheaper.

I hate the raw stat nerf but I love the Morello buff.

People buy FQC for the gold per 5 sec stat, active and passive, people buy Morello for the high AP stat and 20% cooldown. And both have the same mana regen. It's like, a little more gold for 35+ AP, +10% cooldown reduction, 100% mana regen, passive or -250 gold for -35 AP, -10% cooldown reduction, 2 gold per 10, active and passive.

Posui Gart1 votes

Yeah, this changes should really make FQC weaker compared to Morello. It could even lead to the situations when you(as a jungler/toplaner) see that enemy midlaner is going to get FQC, so you decide to initiate teamfights over towers/objectives early so that midlaner with low fighting stats would be at disadvantage, or if you see him going ROA/Morello-you can focus more on ganking him. And that midlaner himself would also choose between stats or safety considering your pick and playstyle Well I, as a mage mid main, didn't jump on the frostqueen train earlier so it would be always item 1058 +item 3114/item 3028 +item 1001 for me

DJ S0NA1 votes

I just wanted to know why is riot scared to reduce the cost of Athenes. I know it literally dominated season 3 and 4 mid mages, but it's such a good item for mid... It's components has MR with mana regen for more safe play and raw AP for more agressive laning, which defies laning phase.

Edit: Or just add Blasting Wand and increase the AP to 80 and keep the same price or +100 (and remove Amplifying tome).

Posui Gart1 votes

Athenes is a "safe" pick against enemy AP midlaner if your fight comes down to "who can outpoke his opponent". It has lesser AP and more cost than Morello, but in the end Athene user will outspam his enemy while having resist in same slot. If you are going full 45% cdr on someone like Syndra AND you are facing AP enemy-it is a great pick even now.

TotalJerk1 votes

It's bought for all of those reasons.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

lol FQC is being bought on Mid laners because its stats and active are completely overpowered. Mid laners could care less about the gold passive and would continue buying it even if it didn't exist on the item. Mages are still easily number 1 in the game right now for Mid and anyone who says otherwise is blind.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Middle

Mages take up the top 5 spots and the first 2 non mage champions are GP and Talon at 6 and 7 with the rest of the ladder being mages until Zed in 14. Increasing the cost on some items and nerfing some stats didn't do jack to mages.

DJ S0NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RhBGivPI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-17T01:00:43.090+0000)

Increasing the cost on some items and nerfing some stats didn't do jack to mages.

It didn't do jack to mages because if you go their respective pages, almost every single mage that goes mid buys FQC.

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RhBGivPI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-17T01:00:43.090+0000)

lol FQC is being bought on Mid laners because its stats and active are completely overpowered.

It's overpowered because other AP items got nerfed.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Sona Smurf,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RhBGivPI,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-01-17T01:11:08.566+0000)

It didn't do jack to mages because if you go their respective pages, almost single mage that goes mid buys FQC.

It's overpowered because other AP items got nerfed.

I wonder what your base of comparison is. Mages take FQC as a crutch because their itemization sucks. And that makes them OP? If mages were dominating the rift, that would be another case entirely, except that's not the case.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

{quoted}

If mages were dominating the rift, that would be another case entirely, except that's not the case.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Middle

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

rofl top 20 you have Zed, Yasuo, and Talon the rest are mages

Ratbert1 votes

Leblanc, ekko, kassadin, katarina and diana are now suddenly mages and ahri cannot be considered semi-assassin. xd

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted}

I wonder what your base of comparison is. Mages take FQC as a crutch because their itemization sucks. And that makes them OP? If mages were dominating the rift, that would be another case entirely, except that's not the case.

Open an LCS, LPL or OGN stream See Azir Anivia Lissandra Ahri Viktor TwistedFate Lux rushing item 3027 item 3001 every game

You guys will learn soon enough, go follow the pros that actually know what theyre talking about

Shiyo Kozuki1 votes

Do you honestly believe mages are strong right now? Do you honestly believe that Assassins are weak right now? That's what your win rate garbage is saying.

Here's a tip: Win rates mean nothing.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

Nerfing the mana regen only kills supports more, since midlaners usually have time/room to afford a second mana regen item, supports don't.

The current active nerf by increasing CD is good, the scaling slow was completely unnecessary. They shouldn't have touched anything with the base stats and just hard nerf the active AND passive; that's what makes FQC so OP. Even if the active have a 30% slow for 3 seconds, it would still be balanced and is actually a scouting item, not some "long range targeted slow" kind of thing.

And of course, buff other items.

Doctor Jarvis3 votes

Hey, I didn't see your post when it was relevant, so here we go. You know who has the best MP5 at early levels of the game? Its a freaking 4 way tie between Soraka Sona Janna and Nami. Next on the list? Lulu, not even a point behind. In fact, if you look at this handy chart, the highest base values for MP5 belong to supports and adcs (and Illaoi, for some reason). Mid laners are getting FQC because their mana regen is so far behind everyone else's considering how many skills they use comparatively. They feel like the mana regen is the best item for it (which it was). Meanwhile, theres no real reason to build Talisman over FQC because the mana regen on a support is freaking INSANE with this item, in addition to that stupid active. So @ level 8, Sona regens ~15 mana/5 sec without FQC. Ahri gets 12.4. Using the items we see Sona regenerating ~37.5 mp5 while Ahri gets ~31. Why should either of these champs get Talisman or Morellos (respectively)? Ahri loses 30 AP for the trade and 10% CDR but gains 6MP5 and that active. Game breaking? No, but it does make Morellos look pretty stupid. And taking Talisman is laughable on any support that has AP scalings, in part because of the mana regen (which scales better for them because of their higher bases). I also don't really get this "they have room for more Mana regen stuff" argument you're making. Are you seeing a lot of people building item 3070+ any mana regen item? item 3028 +any mana regen item? item 3165 + any mana regen...you get the idea. If anything supports have room for additional mana regen in item 3504 (which again is WAY BETTER FOR THEM GIVEN THEIR BASES). I guess my point is, the mana regen had to go, because as long as it had it there was little incentive to build other mana regen items/support items.

Tohob1 votes

i think this is an unfortunate in-between rework stages, and they're setting up league in preparation so that when the huge mage updates hit (i believe they said in the middle of the year) they don't absolutely take over the game like the juggernauts did.

i'm not saying i agree with it, they probably could have just left these changes testing on the PBE for an extended period and only released them onto live maybe a month before the mage updates hit, but i assume that's the logic behind it.

xl Kirito lx1 votes

Nerfing the passive wouldn't affect anything. Heatseeking Morgana Q's are always going to be good on mid laners. The active needs to be reverted, or changed where it doesn't CC anymore.

Poske1 votes

NO YOUR IDEA IS HORRIBLE AND SELFISH I ll try to explain why:

Brand mid and Morgana mid was a TRASH TIER ULTRA HORRIBLE flame worthy pick before Frost queen became viable in mid (It did come in the same patch deathfire touch did though)

AND NO do not try to convince me they werent Brand just wasnt viable midlane pick since his release nerfs. As a syndra and brand main I realised syndra is better version of brand And many champions were but not he can actually reach his powerspike easier and actually do more damage. Frost queen claim fits BRAND ISSUES SO WELL that it could aswell be called Brand queen claim or whatever. You get the point ... The synergy is to cool nice epic and makes brand players so happy

Morgana mid became weak once they removed her to toxic easy clear (W dmg nerf). Frost queen revived this pick. While I am not Morgana player myself I am sure lots of veterans are happy they can play her on mid

Now I can see frost queen claim being core on those 2 picks and maybe some more dot champions. Even after nerfs Brand and Morgana ll still use that item in mid while with your nerfs you would put those champions who were supposed to be a midlane champions IN A GODAMN GARBAGE

I am happy that Riot reverted a change. I Made a thread against it and next day they reverted it.. I could easly be the reason they reverted it

Dont get me wrong I dont want Frost queen claim stats to be gutted . They should nerf it slowly and not hit 10 things at the time ..

DJ S0NA1 votes

They should have nerfed the active or just created a seperate/better passive, while keeping Twin Shadows.

Poske1 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Sona Smurf,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RhBGivPI,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-01-17T01:37:42.367+0000)

They should have nerfed the active or just created a seperate/better passive, while keeping Twin Shadows.

Twin shadows was only used as replacement of boots if you had ludens in your build ...

I dont like the fact that i cant replace my boots if I have ludens (Might try out lichbane but it gives less as far as i remember)

Apart from that twin shadow was bad );

Steelflame1 votes

Honestly, a big part of FQC's power is how much power lies in the earlier part of it, the item 3098 part of the line. At 850 gold, it grants 100% mana regen already, as well as the AP, and gold-gen. Considering how just 100% mana regen cost, at base cost, 500 gold, consuming 4 item slots, paying a little bit more to have the same regen, plus 10 AP, plus passive gold gen, just makes FQC all the more valuable as an item. Right now mages are really stressed for having mana regen, gold, and damage, and just the component for FQC does it all. The only reason you see them further upgrading it anyway is because of how much raw power the FQC active has, let alone the increased gold gen even further.

Canidae1 votes

U know, off-tank mages aren't the only mages who could benefit from stuff like item 3027 and item 3001

TotalJerk2 votes

Every single stat on RoA is amazing. It's easily one of the best AP items in the game, right now. Anybody who needs even 2 of the stats it gives should build it.

FastAsHeck1 votes

Now since i'm a support main, I LOVE Frost Queen's Claims. But AP champions taking it feels so wrong.

As a jungler, I feel your pain bro. We have lost way too many items becuase of this little douchebag Ezreal

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Laners aren't allowed to have Smite items (even though they have to sacrifice a summoner slot to do so), but laners are allowed to have support items, which have no prerequisites that make it better for supports.

TSM Brazzers1 votes

Tbh Riot should change the spooky ghost to be only able to hit enemy you have vision on. The mana regen and ap nerfs arent enough. Being able to get free vision on nearby enemy without risk is simply dumb, we already have blue orb for that.

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