My problem with the Ahri PBE nerfs

Linna Excel·Feb 2, 2015·31 votes·3,488 views

With the nerfs to Ahri on PBE I'm thinking two things. The first is that now Ahri is going to be forced to rush Morello's instead of opting into it. That's a problem because well if that item needs further nerfing, she'll be nerfed with it. My other issue is that her mana costs were lowered in part because they were too high after her rework (and before the athene's nerfs). Right now I'm not sure athene's is good on anyone but anivia or others like her. I'm not sure that item is an option for mages anymore and you can't double up on mana items.

I know something had to be done about Ahri, but this seems like riot is running in circles and we'll need to see her buffed in a month or three (again) after she drops off the radar (again). In short, this doesn't seem like it's fixing Ahri for the long haul but putting off the issue in a way people will forget about her for the moment. It feels like this isn't the last change she's getting this season (if she wants to be in a healthy state and she does).

62 Comments

AlorasenceFeb 2, 201524 votes

Will someone explain to me why Ahri cannot go one day being a powerful pick, but Zed, Kassadin, Lee Sin, can go entire seasons without being touched?

I also know how Riot works, and if they ovrer nerf her, they won't buff her for a god damn millenium.

KingsgraveFeb 2, 201514 votes

{quoted}

Will someone explain to me why Ahri cannot go one day being a powerful pick, but Zed, Kassadin, Lee Sin, can go entire seasons without being touched?

I also know how Riot works, and if they ovrer nerf her, they won't buff her for a god damn millenium.

There is a difference between being a good and powerful pick and instantly going to a 55-57% winrate with an absurdly high playrate. Warwick got hit with the nerf bat right after he did the exact same thing in the past.

They are making Ahri harder to play because the 5.2 changes made her far too easy to play.

AlorasenceFeb 2, 201511 votes

I understand that but I put no trust in Riot's balance decisions. Whenever they alter a champions design or kit, they butcher its functionality and often leave it unplayable for weeks, months, and sometimes years on end.

Watch, Ahri will get nerfed into the ground, then 10 months later Riot will accept their mistake and reduce the mana cost on something by .0005%.

Elise, Zilean, Ryze, Diana, Gragas, Eve...

More recently Fizz, Akali, Syndra, et cetera.

Wait and see. Riot tends to either bury champions or neglect them alltogether. Call me a pessimist but I've been playing this game for a long time.

Sly FoxyFeb 3, 201519 votes

I know I'm going to eat hate for my name, but Jarvan has consistently had a 55%+ winrate for months, has an absolutely ridiculous top lane, and hasn't been nerfed the whole time (he was buffed for the new jungle too).

The problem with Ahri is that riots balance team didn't think the build change removing DFG would do, and now have no clue how to deal with it so they are attempting to Olaf her Q. Riot, do you want W max back? Because this is how you get W max back.

Reduce her base mana regen. That's all you have to do. She'll instantly become balanced if you do that. Don't increase mana costs (because LATER you'll nerf morellos and Ahri'll drop off the face of the earth). Don't nerf her W range. We know you aren't going to put range back on any abilities, and it already has a wonky range mechanic anyway.

Ahri builds Morellos and Grail now. Before she built 0 mana items. This means she has mana now and can poke in lane. Ofc she gets stronger. Assassin Ahri could combo twice before running oom. Ahri now can combo 7-8 times, then gets her mana back by waiting. I'll admit it's a bit ridiculous, but that's what the problem is, not her Q spam. That isn't even real. If you nerf the Q mana cost Ahri players will just spam W in lane, max W, and do essentially the same damage, except this time it's truly skillless because now you don't need to aim.

These changes are completely opposite of anything that would actually help, and will only cause the problem to get worse.

Hinagiku33Feb 3, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feral Ahri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Rd99e8EE,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-02-03T00:30:36.968+0000)

I know I'm going to eat hate for my name, but Jarvan has consistently had a 55%+ winrate for months, has an absolutely ridiculous top lane, and hasn't been nerfed the whole time (he was buffed for the new jungle too).

The problem with Ahri is that riots balance team didn't think the build change removing DFG would do, and now have no clue how to deal with it so they are attempting to Olaf her Q. Riot, do you want W max back? Because this is how you get W max back.

Reduce her base mana regen. That's all you have to do. She'll instantly become balanced if you do that. Don't increase mana costs (because LATER you'll nerf morellos and Ahri'll drop off the face of the earth). Don't nerf her W range. We know you aren't going to put range back on any abilities, and it already has a wonky range mechanic anyway.

Ahri builds Morellos and Grail now. Before she built 0 mana items. This means she has mana now and can poke in lane. Ofc she gets stronger. Assassin Ahri could combo twice before running oom. Ahri now can combo 7-8 times, then gets her mana back by waiting. I'll admit it's a bit ridiculous, but that's what the problem is, not her Q spam. That isn't even real. If you nerf the Q mana cost Ahri players will just spam W in lane, max W, and do essentially the same damage, except this time it's truly skillless because now you don't need to aim.

These changes are completely opposite of anything that would actually help, and will only cause the problem to get worse.

THIS

It's like Riot forgot why they forced Ahri to be an assassin in the first place. Riot freakin' hated kite mage Ahri. They hated her maxing W first in lane to harass without needing a skillshot. They hated her ability to deal damage in team fights while being hard to hit because she dashes around to lay down her W and RRR and only hits EQ if she can guarantee a hit.

And now we're going right back to exactly that. After all the talk about how assassin Ahri was so much healthier because she required landing her skillshots to make her non-skillshot abilities better, now apparently her ability to kill a single squishy target is unhealthy and terrible.

This is why so many of us long-time players have lost all faith in Riot's balance team...

ChessburgerFeb 3, 20151 votes

The problem with riot's balance philosophy is that it's the equivalent of circular reasoning. Might sound interesting until you realize what it is - in essence, null.

"Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade." Source: Wikipedia.

ChessburgerFeb 3, 20151 votes

The comment about never reverting nerfed ranges hit me hard man... My Brand E..... Bloody hell I hate how that change made sense in the meta of s1 but right now is such a detriment because of rampant mobility making his E nigh useless for anything but farming minions and hitting someone for measly damage if he jumps in your face (at which point you're toast already E or not).

Avalon BrightFeb 3, 20153 votes

Warwick got hit with the nerf bat right after he did the exact same thing in the past.

Except WW had a month with his issues to see if they even were issues, not a fucking week.

They are making Ahri harder to play because the 5.2 changes made her far too easy to play.

They're not making her "harder to play" at all, the entire thing that made her so "op" (which she still isn't) was the new speed boost. Which she's still going to have. You're still not going to touch her, she's still going to kite away freely, she's just going to be doing absolutely no damage on top of it.

Champion SkinFeb 3, 20151 votes

Well then again they sure did hit Warwick pretty hard when they first decided to hit him... They nerfed base damage on ult... (ult cooldown? don't quite remember if they did or not) and they nerfed W duration And then to top it off they also nerfed two of the times making hims strong... skirmishers sabre and devourer enchantment

alagoreFeb 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

There is a difference between being a good and powerful pick and instantly going to a 55-57% winrate with an absurdly high playrate. Warwick got hit with the nerf bat right after he did the exact same thing in the past.

They are making Ahri harder to play because the 5.2 changes made her far too easy to play.

They are not making her harder to play, they are just nerfing her. Making her harder to play would be shifting more power onto her skill shots.

Error ScreenFeb 2, 20155 votes

She needs to meet her quota of LCS plays in order to dodge the Nerf Bat, but her winrate beat that quota.

...and even with the movement speed buff she cannot kite the nerf bat.

http://ranger.gamebanana.com/img/ss/srends/thm_185.jpg

CopelandoFeb 2, 20151 votes

Ahri has been a powerful pick, especially when the yearly assassin meta rolls around

AlphariteFeb 2, 20153 votes

Are you high? Kassadin was nerfed at least 4 times last season.

AlorasenceFeb 2, 20153 votes

He has been given love taps many times.

He remains the most banned champion in competetive from late season 3 to early season 5.

BetaDude40Feb 3, 20152 votes

Kass is number 9 right now at 27.4% , but I believe that the moments immediately after his rework, the rates weren't nearly as high. Azir currently hold the record for highest ban rate at a whopping 63.24%, followed by Rek'Sai at 61% and Zed at 51.51%. Really, despite him being in the top ten, he's not nearly as banned as those other champs.

Love taps aside, he's a very different champ than pre-nerf Kass.

AlorasenceFeb 3, 20154 votes

Re-read what I said. He's at 84% as of Sunday night.

He's not as broken as he was, but he's still the most highly prioritized pick in competition. This is beside the point of the post though.

BetaDude40Feb 3, 20151 votes

What's your source? I'm using LoLking, so I am not sure what you use.

AlorasenceFeb 3, 20153 votes

The ban rate is in competetive. That means LCS. It will show up under the champion when the champion is banned. kassadin has a 84 percent ban rate in north America's lcs.

AlphariteFeb 3, 20151 votes

Kassadin was only highest ban right before his rework. After, it was Kayle and Braum.

Kassadin got ONE buff after his rework that was quickly repealed, and then recieved two huge nerfs in succession.

SmokingPuffinFeb 2, 20158 votes

Riot plays favorites.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Linna ExcelFeb 3, 20151 votes

I don't think riot wants her to be powerful. Balance wise they want her to be healthy, but they also realize she has a large fanbase who buy skins. So they feel a need for her to be around 50% win rate and not fall off the face of the earth when it comes to pick rate.

Avalon BrightFeb 3, 20152 votes

I also know how Riot works, and if they ovrer nerf her, they won't buff her for a god damn millenium.

...Which is exactly the reason this needs to stop before it's pushed through. And what are you talking about? Zed and Lee are incredibly strong picks and always have been.

AlorasenceFeb 3, 20151 votes

Umm.....

Yes?

Malix FarwinFeb 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Will someone explain to me why Ahri cannot go one day being a powerful pick, but Zed, Kassadin, Lee Sin, can go entire seasons without being touched?

I also know how Riot works, and if they ovrer nerf her, they won't buff her for a god damn millenium.

So because zed and lee sin exist, ahri should remain OP? is this a joke? kassadin is getting nerfs as well and the solution to making ahri good should not be making her as op as zed and lee sin.

CindikleFeb 3, 20157 votes

Her speed boost just needs to be moved to her W.

Her Q is just too loaded. She can poke, sustain, waveclear and gain mobility from using a single ability.

J4 is in the same place. His Q gives him mobility, damage, CC and armor shred. Sure this takes his E to do half of this. Not that it's stopping him.

DiminishedACFeb 3, 20152 votes

I like the movespeed being moved to her W a lot, actually. The only qualm I have is that her chasing potential is slightly buffed, since it would have to be a flat duration rather than being boosted as long as the orb is out.

Linna ExcelFeb 3, 20154 votes

Yes, I think if they tone down the boost a tad and move it towards the W while removing that CD buff her W got, it might be more interesting for the ahri player and give us some options for how we level her skills. Right now leveling her you almost always max Q first and only level the other two when you have to.

If the CD on her W was a flat 8-10 seconds but it had an increasing MS boost in terms of length or duration, I think that'd help her gameplay overall as far as the Ahri player is concerned. One common complaint I've heard about the post DFG buff was how simple they made her now. While I no longer have to focus on hitting that charm (it isn't the easist skill in the world to hit) they put 80% of her gameplay into her Q. While I as the Ahri player don't mind her being simpler I'd feel better if her W at least had more meaning to it than the skill I'm leveling because the per level CC increase on charm isn't anything to write home about.

I'm also concerned that nerfing her W will just put more emphasis into her Q along side the fact her Q is going to cost more mana. If her W is weaker, more problematic to hit all 3 missiles, and will burn my precious mid-game mana faster, I'm not going to bother with it except for when I all in with my ult. Doing quick math, with 40% CDR, my ideal use of my W after the PBE change (2.4 seconds) will be W-R, W-R, W-R. In other words it's something I want to fire off right before or after I ult and that's about it.

If all my W is in practical terms will be a ult booster, can I really justify the skill as is? I don't know. All I know for sure is that as far as I'm concerned, her W feels like the weak part of her kit and I think that's because riot blames it for free damage. I've personally never 100% liked it because the missile targeting is wonky to work with. If they at least changed it so the missiles prioritize charmed champions, that'd be a start for QOL changes. But her E isn't that easy to hit and the range on the W might be going down if nothing else changes. I really won't like her foxfire then.

ImHerVoiceFeb 3, 20151 votes

what the fuck are you talking about.

You realize j4 has actual mana costs unlike that broken sack of shit right? Seriously. Get your head out of your ass. Don't compare that broken as fuck assassin/mage to an actually balanced utility champion who's seeing some pro play lmfao.

CindikleFeb 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

what the fuck are you talking about.

You realize j4 has actual mana costs unlike that broken sack of shit right? Seriously. Get your head out of your ass. Don't compare that broken as fuck assassin/mage to an actually balanced utility champion who's seeing some pro play lmfao.

His mana costs are not that high. Only one that really effects him early game is his E. Higher ranks of Q will also start to drain him fast.

Ahri's mana costs are higher if we're going to go there.

J4 is like Ahri in the way that most of his non-ulti power is in his Q. Shifting the armor shred to his W for example would be a good chance. It would reduce his early game damage without effecting him late game. He will still have strong CC and damage. It wont just be all tied to his Q. If need be it can scale differently. 15/18/21/24/27%. A slight late game buff. But a higher rank 1 so offset the loss. It is stronger for the first two ranks of Q. After that it is a nerf till he ranks it.

J4 is probably going to get nerfed at some point. There's too much QQ on the forums and he's not Lee Sin. May as well try to help balance him so he doesn't get gutted by giving ideas. Instead of going on a rampage on your keyboard because someone said your BFF champ is a little strong and could use some touch ups.

ImHerVoiceFeb 3, 20151 votes

you just fucking said take his Q- R combo and put it on his W with a 10+ second cooldown because you max it last and its a pathetic useless shield in every circumstance besides a 3+ enemy players on screen fight or to soak 1 auto lmfao.

this is why casuals shouldn't balance. you literally understand nothing.

I can't even look at what you just wrote without getting pissed off you're so stupid its upsetting me holy mother of god. j4 goes oom in 2-3 Q'Es lmfao

CindikleFeb 3, 20154 votes

You can't understand what I wrote because you're inability to fully understand what I wrote.

I said nothing about moving his R's power. I only said his Q.

I said shift the armor shred to his W. Or move it to his R similar to how Sivir's R works giving her W an attack speed.

If you really cannot further understand this, I suggest staying in school.

SmokingPuffinFeb 2, 20155 votes

If that's all they do to Ahri, I'll continue to spam her and dominate games.

Increased Q mana cost is a legit nerf and will push her towards Morello's rush just like everyone else. Morello's is legitimately too good, but when they nerf the thing they will have tons of mana rebalancing work to do anyway. Leave that problem for another day.

Decreased W range is a really good nerf idea. I find that I am often harassing with it in lane right now, and it feels too easy. The new targeting mechanics really buffed the skill.

Decreased W cooldown and damage sounds super spiffy, increases my desire for Rylai's and I already liked that item anyway.

Avalon BrightFeb 3, 20154 votes

A legit nerf? Her main spell costs as much as a fucking ult as early as level 9. There's nothing "legit" about it. W is awful too. That is a massive range nerf and there's no way in hell you're harassing with it in lane, it'd hit minions 9 out of 10 times.

SaltyKrackaFeb 3, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Avalon Bright,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Rd99e8EE,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-02-03T01:16:23.467+0000)

A legit nerf? Her main spell costs as much as a fucking ult as early as level 9.

Nasus E says hi.

MEMEME670Feb 3, 20153 votes

Nasus E is not the primary skill used in his core pattern of gameplay, while Ahri's Q is though.

SaltyKrackaFeb 3, 20151 votes

Nasus E is actually his primary trading tool. He maxes it second, and lemme tell you that Nasus has fuck all for mana or mana regen, especially given the items he tends to build and the fact that he doesn't get given blue on a regular basis.

MEMEME670Feb 3, 20152 votes

It is not used more than any other skill in his core pattern of gameplay.

I know what Nasus does, and what I'm saying is correct.

B1naryB0tFeb 2, 20154 votes

If you've played against her, you should know it's a buff. She's less punishing, less charm-reliant, and her win-rate increased dramatically between 5.1 and 5.2.

VesarixxFeb 2, 20153 votes

Think he's talking about next patch, Ahri's winrate shot up to 57% after the last changes so chances are they are scaling her back, I haven't heard about any changes currently on the PBE though.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 2, 20153 votes

You can check here: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/02/22-pbe-update.html#more

'Bout halfway down the page. And I find it hilarious that all the fanboys whined about the changes, then her winrate went to 57%. Absolutely hilarious.

StridentFeb 2, 20153 votes

I completely agree. Morellonomicon is too strong of an item. I mostly agree with W nerfs, and Q mana increase, but the rank 5 increase is a little large (25 mana).

AlphariteFeb 2, 20157 votes

Yes, nerf morello's, because mages haven't been gutted enough.

VertaniumFeb 2, 20154 votes

not to mention one of the only mage that can hold her own, just got the Most vital part of her kit, in the most vital part of the game for her nerfed. (seriously if you want syndra to not be opressive early, change her numbers so she is good late and people have to keep her down. Would fit with lore and passive better)

StridentFeb 2, 20152 votes

I don't think you guys understand that if Morello's were nerfed, mages could be buffed. The fact that Morellonomicon is such a powerful and cost efficient item is limiting the strength of mages in general.

AlphariteFeb 3, 20156 votes

Athene's was an extremely powerful and cost effective item, nobody bought Morello's when it existed.

So do tell, how is an inferior version of S4 grail limiting the strength of mages?

StridentFeb 4, 20151 votes

It's a result of the % base mana regeneration change.

Athene's previously increased your flat mana regeneration by 1% for every 1% missing mana. It now restores missing mana and grants 50% base mana regeneration from 10 mana per 5, which is impossible to reach if you are not level 18.

Runes also changed, the meta shifted, causing AP per level glyphs to be taken over flat MR glyphs.

The magic resist on Athene's suddenly became less desirable.

Meanwhile, Morellonomicon was adjusted to 100% base mana regeneration from 10 mana per 5.

This is reachable at level 3, and only increases from there. The cost was at an immensely cheap 2100 gold, had a more convenient build path, and provided 80 AP upon completion over the 60 of Athene's.

In fact, several mages purchased Morellonomicon first. Azir was in fact overpowered by purchasing this item first before the Athene's changes.

Basically, Morellonomicon was in fact always strong, and due to meta changes basically screwing over resistances, mages started hitting larger damage spikes sooner at the cost of spam ability.

RilashaFeb 3, 20153 votes

As one who doesn't buy Mana Regen items on Ahri, that Q mana cost nerf will hit me quite hard. I've always been oom at the end of extended teamfights and this would just make me even more so after getting rank 5 of Q (totally relying on Elixir of Sorcery mana regen late). I've got less waveclear and less poke with the changes. The changes probably will force a Morello's first item if you want to have mana, much like assassin Ahri's DFG rush.

I'd also like to note that before the mana cost buff Ahri had on Q in 4.12, that her costs for Q were 70/75/80/85/90. I think I'd rather have those costs than 60/70/80/90/100 that the change is going with. Why does the main skill cost the same as an ult anyway?

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Feb 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

As one who doesn't buy Mana Regen items on Ahri, that Q mana cost nerf will hit me quite hard. I've always been oom at the end of extended teamfights and this would just make me even more so after getting rank 5 of Q (totally relying on Elixir of Sorcery mana regen late). I've got less waveclear and less poke with the changes. The changes probably will force a Morello's first item if you want to have mana, much like assassin Ahri's DFG rush.

I'd also like to note that before the mana cost buff Ahri had on Q in 4.12, that her costs for Q were 70/75/80/85/90. I think I'd rather have those costs than 60/70/80/90/100 that the change is going with. Why does the main skill cost the same as an ult anyway?

It's because Lux's E costs more than her ult.

JefftiffyFeb 2, 20152 votes

Honestly the problem with Ahri now is her ability to poke with very little consequence. She doesn't have mana issues and the rest of mid does. Plus her Q allows the poke to go unaswered making her extremely obnoxious to lane against. Combine that with her mobility spike at 6 and have fun playing a against her. She will kite you until she knows she can just run in and kill you.

Avalon BrightFeb 3, 20152 votes

She doesn't have mana issues

Are you insane? She has huge mana issues. Granted not as bad as they used to be nor as bad as something like Lux, but if you even try a full combo you're going to be almost empty.