Why Kog Mid Isn't a Thing Anymore :(

SirPurrr··40 votes·3,839 views
Kog'Maw

The changes to his ult. basically kill the poke style many AP Kog mains enjoyed. Moreover, an on-hit build is way too slow for mid and also doesn't fulfill the role's requirements. If a mid laner lacks significant CC, they need great waveclear and poke. Kog's lane is more punishing than ever but even if you get your items, your team rarely has enough peel/CC to allow you to be effective. Burst, waveclear and poke are what mid-lane is supposed to contribute if you want to win.

The old Kog variant was not only stronger in lane but provided better burst and poke while also scaling way better as a reward. This allowed him to contribute to the team somewhat safely barring engages and gave windows to come back too. Now, if you have to get into 710 range for 6 seconds with no hard CC, no defense and only mediocre damage output, all of Kog's weaknesses are amplified 100 fold. However, due to the nerfs to his ult.'s damage >50% HP (as well as increased cost and duration until mana reset), you are forced to use W a lot more even in AP builds just so you're not completely useless. This makes mid-lane extremely unforgiving and his early was weak even before the rework. If you have to play such an unsafe style with him for a meaningful contribution, W needs to scale way better with AP or have a higher base damage.

No one really asked for a Kog rework and we weren't asked for feedback regarding its direction. It's not fair to change him so drastically that one of his favorite lanes actually becomes uncompetitive in ranked. I've played hundreds of AP Kog games and he's my favorite champion.

There are many other Kog threads with suggestions. We'd like some direction and all our favorite lanes to be viable. Although, I will say that the changes to W probably make Kog JG nearly viable (if your team can survive 20 min. without losing too much) and that's something I've tried a lot before the rework with pretty unimpressive results.

30 Comments

ofart18 votes

It was a net nerf. It costs more mana, resets the mana cost slower and does less damage for virtually all scenarios. It isn't even a mana-effective poke tool anymore and really hurts Kog's lane presence. The only times it's equivalent or stronger is when enemies are low HP AND you built some big items. The base damage is much worse on average and the <25% scenario is rarely useful since the old ult. usually would net a kill too. In a sense, it overkills them.

Frick Mako10 votes

Kog'Maw adc isn't a thing anymore either, because it's not optimal for him to build too much AD, and he has to build on-hit instead. Playing Kog'Maw in general isn't a thing anymore.

Rebonack8 votes

I get that Riot was trying to ease back AP Kog's poke. They didn't want him stepping on Xerath's non-existent toes. But if they wanted to make Kog's Ult feel a little less awful, making the bonus damage scaling smoother would be great. If Kog's Ult got 2.666% bonus damage per 1% missing enemy HP then he would still hit 200% bonus damage at the same point, but it would make the Ult way more useful at all other health levels save for full HP.

The big problem is that most of Riot's balance team wants to wait to see if Kog is going to be strong at the LCS level before they do anything with him. For whatever reason they think it's alright for one of their champs to be balanced around ~100 players. Apparently Repertoire is pushing for balancing Kog on the same standards as the rest of the game's cast but I don't know how much headway he's making.

For whatever reason, Kog being a priority pick in LCS absolutely terrifies most of Riot's balance team. Seeing more than four ADCs getting picked is a pretty scary thing.

Saianna7 votes

AP Kog is closed case.

Nothing we'll say will matter :/

But hey! There's high chance than in a year or so Riot will relase Kog'Maw 2.0 a champion copy-paste similar to old Koggy and call it a day ;)

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

But hey! There's high chance than in a year or so Riot will relase Kog'Maw 2.0 a champion copy-paste similar to old Koggy and call it a day ;)

Karma We're still waiting.

Toru Itai2 votes

Sion I'll be waiting

even if i'm the only one.

XeroKimo1 votes

Just build some attack speed items then ap, make his w go to like 5-6% while having high attack speed gg.

JohnTheLibrarian1 votes

item 3115 item 3091

Saianna2 votes

It's AS AP.. and even though it is strong, I enjoyed having diversity, where I could choose to go AS Ap or raw AP.

Looks like Riot made yet another successful, anti-diverse rework -.-

Chuck Charles6 votes

as someone who played a lot of kog maw season 5 mid lane and AP....he is definitely just not good in this meta. and not good for what he does anymore. His damage is honestly still there. the E is insanity, the Q is nuts, and the W is actually pretty good on him as it does about 8% max health per hit and you get a decent chunk of attack speed for free, so his autos are now doing a good amount of dmg. the real issue is that you can't poke with him anymore.

and that's literally the only reason you would ever go Kog Maw mid. sure he has burst, sure he can blow someone up, but someone honestly has to be pretty dumb to walk up to a full ap kog maw point blank if they are squishy enough to be one shot. chances are if you are walking up to a full ap kog maw, you are going to explode him before he can react.

I think the biggest nerfs is the front loaded damage and the duration you have to wait for your R to reset its mana cost. The mana cost increase is ok I guess, but it doesn't scale up in damage to justify.

Personally I want to see it on first Kog Maw ulti do the same damage it currently does, but as you use it more, it increases in damage based off your AP (so it would only work for AP Kog Maw) kind of like how Kassadin ultimate works. so when you spam that 400 mana ulti, it is actually worth the 400 mana and not just because they are low.

right now, you have to wait i think its like what? 10 seconds for it to reset mana. in a team fight you are not going to be able to do that. and you will burn through your entire mana pool if you don't have athenes and get a kill/assist.

magic pole5 votes

No one really asked for a Kog rework and we weren't asked for feedback regarding its direction.

Cassiopeia Hi Koggles

i see they did to you what they did to me.

(http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/04/machine-gun-gif.gif?gs=a)

Starfish H4 votes

I'm going to say it. AP Kog is better now. You don't use your Ult to cheese poke anymore, instead you rely on E and your Q to whittle them down, but you also spam your autos a lot as well. Guinsoo's and a Nashor's works wonder on Kog and coupled with some more AP items turn him both into a poke, seige champ into pseudo-ADC with your W on. Your Ult should be used more for executing rather than poking because of the ability and how it performs. I honestly think AP Kog is still better and heck even more viable now due to how much of a threat he still is both poking and being a Gattling gun.

Tyaldan1 votes

I say take it a step further and go full attack speed kog. Assuming 0 damage buffs 0 ap 0 everything except attack speed, at 2.5 attacks a second, you do 2% of max health as magic damage 5 times a second. 10% a second, 10 seconds to kill anyone, assuming 0 mr. Not bad on paper, but several people have mr, etc etc. However it also has some decent ap scaling, and more importantly it isnt just magic damage, its also half your ad, and applies on hit effects. On hit effects such as nashors, which is 15% of your ap, guinsoos, which is another nice chunk on top, and bork, which is extra % current hp as physical. Unless they are full tank they are going to be shredded by that and the % magic, and even if they are full tank, wits end stealing flat mr makes your attacks that much more punishing. Yeah he has a hard lane phase, yeah his r isnt what it used to be, but i vastly prefer this kog to the one i tried once before rework and went wow what a shit champ with. there is nothing funnier than seeing 3 champs go from full to 0 in less than 5 seconds. Even funnier is when they flash point blank away from you and are still in your ws range, there is no running at that point.

arcinex3 votes

It's still a thing. You need to adjust your playstyle and build path to fit the new AP Kog'Maw mid. I think both AP and ADC kog are in a good spot now. ADC Kog'Maw definitely improved. AP Kog'Maw is different in that now instead of poking with your ulti you try to poke who you can with your W which is ridiculous btw and your Q & E.

AP Kog'Maw Mid http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2041431821/226866899?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2051226625/226866899?tab=overview

ADC Kog'Maw: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2042293331/226866899?tab=overview

SirPurrr3 votes

{quoted}

It's still a thing. You need to adjust your playstyle and build path to fit the new AP Kog'Maw mid. I think both AP and ADC kog are in a good spot now. ADC Kog'Maw definitely improved. AP Kog'Maw is different in that now instead of poking with your ulti you try to poke who you can with your W which is ridiculous btw and your Q & E.

AP Kog'Maw Mid http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2041431821/226866899?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2051226625/226866899?tab=overview

ADC Kog'Maw: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2042293331/226866899?tab=overview

Please show me some Platinum+ games where Kog mid is successful over a large sample not just random meaningless normal games. Results at that level have no bearing on champion viability. I've tried many builds, including some like those.

xl Kirito lx2 votes

It wasn't nerfed persay, just changed. Kog'maws ulti is a lot less useful for poke now, it's true. But it does give him significantly better kill potential on low HP targets. Suddenly, people have to be incredibly careful staying in a fight at low HP. The biggest nerf to mid Kog'maw seems to be the loss of green wards. It's a lot harder playing a non-mobile mid champion w/out consistent ward coverage.

On a side note, Kog'maw jungle is viable. It actually has stronger clears then a lot of meta junglers currently. It still suffers from the problems of lane Kog, but allows for an arguably safer laning phase.

MunchCrunchLunch6 votes

[{quoted}](name=xl Kirito lx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RcMpy4qi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-13T00:32:27.855+0000)

It wasn't nerfed persay, just changed. Kog'maws ulti is a lot less useful for poke now, it's true. But it does give him significantly better kill potential on low HP targets. Suddenly, people have to be incredibly careful staying in a fight at low HP. The biggest nerf to mid Kog'maw seems to be the loss of green wards. It's a lot harder playing a non-mobile mid champion w/out consistent ward coverage.

On a side note, Kog'maw jungle is viable. It actually has stronger clears then a lot of meta junglers currently. It still suffers from the problems of lane Kog, but allows for an arguably safer laning phase.

bruh i cant kill squishies with 10% hp with his ult.

Dracocrash1 votes

I can

Rakvir2 votes

This hits home SO hard. The last time I played Kog mid (or, at the very least, the last time I recall playing him mid), I had full build and I could melt ANYONE.

I think we had exactly one source of hard CC and that was on the support who spent the vast majority of the game dead. Learn to group, people, and STOP. CHASING. KILLS. INTO. UNWARDED. JUNGLE.

Vore Monster2 votes

Kog's ultimate was changed into an execute rather than a poke. But while I can agree I loved the poke, the execute feels much more reliable against enemies that try to get away.

And while I feel his AP ratios need a bit more "oomph" to them, he isn't at all in a terrible spot right now. His new identity just needs getting used to, and I think his E needs to be changed into something else.

Because, let's face it, gap closers galore make his E feel rather useless.

Renascent1 votes

I keep seeing these posts come up, and I keep thinking "What's the point if I can't change anyone's views?"

AP Kog'maw may have had its ulti poke removed, but note that you still have Q and E for your poke; Aside from Q's attack speed, these two spells weren't changed AT ALL.

W's excellent lvl 1 base damage gives me the ability to fight back against a Yasuo dashing through the wave to try to fight me, and the new halved spell cast times lets me blast all my abilities more rapidly than before.

The main gripe people have with AP Kog'maw is his ulti, that it has higher mana cost, increased reset timer, and no more poking potential. The mana cost I have no problems with, and the reset timer is an issue tied with that, but those can be easily resolved by stacking mana (see my build). The poke potential may have been lost, but at 50% hp it returns back to old kog ult damage, and below 25%hp it becomes an execute.

Look at it this way: W's halving spell cast times allow you to instantly remove a large chunk of a target's health with QER, depending on how fed you are. The slow field combined with the target's devastated health bar makes most targets flee, and if not, they still have to get to you somehow by burning their mobility and making them easy pickings for your team or your follow up damage with W and R.

Here's some games where I've done exceptionally well as AP Kog:

17/6/10 http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2066097937/215452559?tab=overview

23/9/13 http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2040642092/215452559?tab=overview

19/3/10 http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2035922706/215452559?tab=overview

atomicwit3 votes

It's probably because doing well stacking Rod of Ages in normal games doesn't qualify as evidence of anything except how bad your opponents were. Your build stacking 3 RoA is probably the LEAST viable of all the Kog build suggestions I've seen. Please, NEVER use normal games as evidence to support your opinion on balance. In fact, anything under Platinum is probably irrelevant to balance (and I say this without being Platinum myself).

Sincarnation1 votes

Good, AP Kogmaw's long range poke was fucking aids with Ludens + Rylais. Amazing poke and seige potential that can only be stopped by having an assassin flank before they can even truly begin sieging isnt fun to play against. Good riddance

atomicwit2 votes

He had plenty of weaknesses in lane and vs split-pushing (something solo-que teams often fail to use correctly). Poke was all he had and of course he should do that well (especially with the ramp up time and needing 11 to be really effective). That's like being mad Vayne shreds tanks.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

Good, AP Kogmaw's long range poke was fucking aids with Ludens + Rylais.

Xerath Yo. Nidalee How's it going? Lux Has anyone seen my move list? I can't remember how to use finalas funkelm.

Sincarnation1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RcMpy4qi,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2016-01-13T16:09:37.944+0000)

Xerath Yo. Nidalee How's it going? Lux Has anyone seen my move list? I can't remember how to use finalas funkelm.

You say this, like I dont think those champions are aids. Xerath is just as bad as kogmaw, no champ should have super long range CONSTANT harass. Fucking gut xerath too while we are at it. Nidalee is aids, but less so after hitbox nerfs. Lux is sleeper aids, people dont realize how many small buffs riot has given her. Super strong atm, but her poke is shorter in range and has. higher CDs than the others.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

He can still go mid, it's just that it will be off meta and he will rely on AD more than AP now. Honestly though, I hope AP Kog gets worked on for the immobile mage update, I feel he has always been the premiere hybrid carry, able to throw people off by going AP bot lane, then switching mid game to AD/ full hybrid.

Kaioko1 votes

I personally thought that mid kog was a bit toxic to play against late game when his poke with enough mana items was literally insanity.

SirPurrr5 votes

{quoted}

I personally thought that mid kog was a bit toxic to play against late game when his poke with enough mana items was literally insanity.

Yes, that's when he was supposed to shine and picking Kog made many sacrifices at other stages in the game. The only toxic thing was his strength late and that's kind of the entire point of a hypercarry so I don't see it as any more toxic than Vayne being able to 1v3 late.

Majael1 votes

I have a question - is the pasive still working , that if he uses his W - all cast times of another abilities are halved ? If no - when they took it away ?

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