Nearly 1/3 of Kog Players Went AP Before the Latest Reworks

SirPurrr··81 votes·4,080 views
Kog'Maw

Give me back my AP Kog. It's why I purchased the champion. I wanted one truly godly late game poke mage. He has so much counterplay via split pushing, engages, dodging, shields, heals, stealth assassinations etc. Why was he gutted after being viable as AP for so many seasons? I want AP Kog FULLY supported for every ELO bracket like he deserves to be. He has a completely different playstyle and attracts different players than AD Kog. He's not a gimmick like AP trist was. His whole kit has AP ratios and makes sense with AP. I don't even care if his winrate isn't good since he's actually difficult to play well but it feels like he's not even good for people who put a ton of work into him. AP Kog was supposed to be the late game terror of the rift with godly poke + burst late. Idk what you need to do but that .2 AP E nerf was total BS... in the same patch as the Rylai's nerf too. He wasn't even played competitively at that point and nor was he picked or banned almost at all in ranked. I'm really annoyed by this. I purchased Kog SOLELY because I loved his AP playstyle. At least with shit like trist she's still somewhat similar in how her kit works but my champion was basically deleted.

AP Kog late was the ONLY surgical poke champion with solid DPS vs tanks due to W, fantastic burst if he can get picks and decent poke from a crazy range (the most fun and difficult aspect of the champion). Ziggs and Xerath are just not for the same thing. Xerath has conditional crazy range but no DPS vs tanks. Ziggs has pretty bad range relative to both since his Q almost never hits if it bounces more than once and even in that case, it would just be blocked by tanks. His late game is alright but nothing special. He's just very different and also a champion I enjoy. No one does what AP kog did and AP kog himself now doesn't seem to do enough late game for how easy he is to shut down early, dive, etc. He's only really decent if you have a ton of CC to get them lower and keep abilities chained on them. For example, if you have a malphite who can ult. and then you clean up, that works fine assuming the game is somewhat even.

Again, if you do not want to support AP kog exactly as his kit is now, think of ways it can work while keeping those late game fantasy elements fully alive. Just never nerf his range/ability to chain ult. and damage. His ult. is already nothing like what it used to be. This is the reason I like the champion. Hell, I'll even take a hit somewhere else to make this ability as strong as possible. For example, perhaps its AP ratio can be weaker at 6 and then grow at 11, 16.

81 Comments

Skorch24 votes

I still have a friend who plays AP Kog. Sure its not meta but i dont think it ever was supposed to be. That poke becomes obnoxious. I dont think Kog needs a rework to fit it in either.

It is still viable enough as an off-meta. It doesnt need to become 1/3rd of the times the champion is played again.

Also "AP Kog late was the ONLY surgical poke champion with solid DPS vs tanks due to W, fantastic burst if he can get picks and decent poke from a crazy range (the most fun and difficult aspect of the champion)." Is exactly why it shouldnt be viable. Crazy range DPS with situational Burst?

Why do you think Cass/Ryze have slightly lower range, and Xerath/Ziggs are gated by mana/CDs? Because it was crazy good.

ToddlerPacifier4 votes

{quoted}

I still have a friend who plays AP Kog. Sure its not meta but i dont think it ever was supposed to be. That poke becomes obnoxious. I dont think Kog needs a rework to fit it in either.

It is still viable enough as an off-meta. It doesnt need to become 1/3rd of the times the champion is played again.

Also "AP Kog late was the ONLY surgical poke champion with solid DPS vs tanks due to W, fantastic burst if he can get picks and decent poke from a crazy range (the most fun and difficult aspect of the champion)." Is exactly why it shouldnt be viable. Crazy range DPS with situational Burst?

Why do you think Cass/Ryze have slightly lower range, and Xerath/Ziggs are gated by mana/CDs? Because it was crazy good.

His poke isn't even remotely scary now. It's only meaningful if they're below 40% HP. Old AP Kog did have insane poke though. New one does not... it's not even worth the mana if you're at 3+ stacks. If they want to remove ult. power that way, they need to add more elsewhere. For example, Q is very skinny, single target and only has a .5 AP ratio. A skill like that deserves much higher imo. It's not even useful for waveclear so I don't see much danger to it.

I don't know why people are so blinded by damage. It's the same reason people think Zed's OP... while I think he's perfectly fine because I don't just look at the gray screen and swear at it. I understand what Zed gives up (no CC for the comp, easy to counter with Zhonya's, worse scaling in teamfights than most mids etc.) Just because something has very high damage/poke/burst whatever doesn't make them OP (and AP Kog's winrates were basically never crazy). He has no dash, no shield, no hard cc, basically no lane pressure whatsoever etc. To say that "omg a pure glass cannon champion with no early game, no mobility tools, virtually no CC, all skillshot kit does A TON of damage late game!!! NERF PLZ" is just not understanding how the game works. If he doesn't do absurd damage, then wtf does he do? Just a huge liability otherwise. His kit is useless beyond that. Even Xerath does a lot more. He has hard CC, a decent slow, reasonable early game etc.

Skorch9 votes

"Old AP Kog did have insane poke though... If they want to remove ult. power that way, they need to add more elsewhere."

Now let me stop you there. If something is insane, on an already supposed off meta thing, that Riot probably doesnt want, why do they need to add power elsewhere? Its not meta for a reason, because when it is its obnoxious. Mages are already complaining about the likes of Corki/Varus in the mid. Riot likes AD Kog, so they keep AP Kog JUST viable where you can do it, but not viable enough that it starts being picked over popular mid lane champs.

Also "Q is very skinny, single target and only has a .5 AP ratio. A skill like that deserves much higher imo." A .5 Ratio on a champ whos EVERY ability scales on AP is actually pretty high, most mages have around that. And theres just as hard to land skillshots, Brand Q Xerath E just of the top of my head in like 1 second.

ToddlerPacifier6 votes

{quoted}

"Old AP Kog did have insane poke though... If they want to remove ult. power that way, they need to add more elsewhere."

Now let me stop you there. If something is insane, on an already supposed off meta thing, that Riot probably doesnt want, why do they need to add power elsewhere? Its not meta for a reason, because when it is its obnoxious. Mages are already complaining about the likes of Corki/Varus in the mid. Riot likes AD Kog, so they keep AP Kog JUST viable where you can do it, but not viable enough that it starts being picked over popular mid lane champs.

Also "Q is very skinny, single target and only has a .5 AP ratio. A skill like that deserves much higher imo." A .5 Ratio on a champ whos EVERY ability scales on AP is actually pretty high, most mages have around that. And theres just as hard to land skillshots, Brand Q Xerath E just of the top of my head in like 1 second.

Follow the discussion. It is NOT insane now. It used to be way strong years ago.

A GLASS CANNON CHAMPION WITH NOTHING ELSE IN HIS KIT AND NO LANE PHASE DESERVES INSANE DAMAGE AND RATIOS (gasp, the shock and awe)! Most mids have game changing abilities, strong early-mid games and a ton of CC so it's not at all a comparable discussion. In fact, Cass, which has ADC level DPS has a potential 5 man stun, some poke options, speed boost, mana sustain, healing etc. Even ADCs offer more than just raw damage. Virtually all of them have either decent CC (Ashe, Varus (also good poke), Sivir), dashes like (Ezreal, Trist, Vayne, Kalista), amazing teamfight potential (Twitch, MF, Kog if he has W up) etc. They also have sustain and don't need to aim most of their damage. They don't have the same range as a poke mid but overall, they scale even harder unless your team is just clueless and has no idea how to engage, split push, CC, peel, etc. Moreover, their lane phase is FAR stronger than AP Kog's.

As for poke, it's only obnoxious if your team's braindead. If they know how to respond intelligently, it's just yet another strategy. It's only too strong if you drafted randomly and have no ability to split push, no ability to flank/engage, no assassination/pick potential etc. In that case, your team deserves to lose for completely mindless and selfish picks. I get that people don't like dodging skillshots and playing vs poke requires a bit more intelligence than just all ining every fight but it deserves to be an equally viable strategy even if people don't like playing vs it. If Riot decides "our players don't want to think enough to play vs poke" then they are basically saying Xerath, Kog, Ziggs, etc. can never ever be actually good. They're just jokes to pretend strategic diversity exists. You have righteous glory, Mobis, soooo many CRAZY engage options/champions (Kled, Gnar, TF, Mao, Naut, Braum, Bard, Alistar... I can go on forever). If your team is too incompetent to deal with it, that's on them, not the game. For the record though, AP Kog CURRENTLY does NOT have good poke. I'm just defending the existence of a poke playstyle.

Skorch6 votes

Let me say again. AP KOG IS NOT MEANT TO BE VIABLE.

You say that ALL these other people do things better than Kog. Thats the point.

Riot has pretty much stated "AP KOG SHOULDNT BE META" If Kog could just be built like any other poke mage, he would have to be better than those other mages, to compete. And Riot doesnt want that.

Riot doesnt want people picking AP Kog to be a midlaner, there was that one LCS season where AP Kog was pick or ban.

Riot wants you to pick AP Kog to fuck around. How do they make that happen? By making him statistically worse than other AP utility mages, but viable enough that its not a free loss.

ToddlerPacifier3 votes

{quoted}

Let me say again. AP KOG IS NOT MEANT TO BE VIABLE.

You say that ALL these other people do things better than Kog. Thats the point.

Riot has pretty much stated "AP KOG SHOULDNT BE META" If Kog could just be built like any other poke mage, he would have to be better than those other mages, to compete. And Riot doesnt want that.

Riot doesnt want people picking AP Kog to be a midlaner, there was that one LCS season where AP Kog was pick or ban.

Riot wants you to pick AP Kog to fuck around. How do they make that happen? By making him statistically worse than other AP utility mages, but viable enough that its not a free loss.

Must be why he was viable for years and has AP scalings as well as magic damage on every ability. Maybe Vi was never meant to be a jungler either (supposedly she was designed for top). Fact is, kit makes sense for AP and the player base found a spot for him. That should matter more than what Riot decides. Whatever they do with him, AP Kog was legitimate for a LONG time and they need to continue to support that even if it's not the exact same kit as now.

Skorch11 votes

Let me say again. AP KOG IS NOT MEANT TO BE VIABLE.

You say that ALL these other people do things better than Kog. Thats the point.

Riot has pretty much stated "AP KOG SHOULDNT BE META" If Kog could just be built like any other poke mage, he would have to be better than those other mages, to compete. And Riot doesnt want that.

Riot doesnt want people picking AP Kog to be a midlaner, there was that one LCS season where AP Kog was pick or ban.

Riot wants you to pick AP Kog to fuck around. How do they make that happen? By making him statistically worse than other AP utility mages, but viable enough that its not a free loss.

As much as people hate to admit, Off-meta is off-meta for a reason. I wouldnt expect a buff to Off-meta builds.

ModAcademy Kayn13 votes

I feel like people don't understand the basic principles that made AP Kog very unbearable, and the reason behind why Riot doesn't support it anymore. For one, he is not built around being an Artillery champion, and I mean this by laning phase. Each of the champions who siege AP, Lux, Ziggs, Xerath, each have their passive dedicated around their AA, which are 550. These passives rewarded them for this, with damage or mana.

Kog doesn't have that, so once he starts getting his mana problem fixed, he can mindlessly clear waves with E, avoiding interaction as far as his Ult can afford him. When Late game comes waddling around, he now has the longest range siege on a lower CD than any other sieger, and he doesn't have to worry about mana much either with full build. Base that around 4 other team members, and he becomes obnoxious fast.

Kog, while he may have been fun as artillery, does not have the same weaknesses and design focuses that other Siege champions have, as his kit was focused around being an ADC when he was designed. I don't like to say this much, but it's not fun being on the other side of AP Kog, having to dart your way around his artillery strikes every 2-1 seconds, especially late game, and I do think people who want it back don't realize it due to a bit of bias.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Bt0ROna,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-09-29T06:03:27.892+0000)

Kog, while he may have been fun as artillery, does not have the same weaknesses and design focuses that other Siege champions have, as his kit was focused around being an ADC when he was designed.

No he wasn't.

He was designed to be a spell-slinger who could run Marksmen if he felt like it. They specifically called him out as a hybrid champion in his champion spotlight. AP Kog was also considered a trollpick until the original Athenes came out.

Lintu Puck1 votes

technically Lucian is a "spellslinger", too, but he is mainly meant to be an ADC as for his OLD Champion spotlight video, a LOT of those videos no longer apply to Riot's current vision of things.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

He doesn't have a passive, his W IS AN AUTO ATTACK STEROID, his Q gives attack speed, and you have to decide between stacking mana and magic pen for your ult or building straight AP to make your Q W and E better.

How is it that he doesn't have the weaknesses of Lux, Ziggs, or Xerath? They too can clear a wave in an instant from a mile away. While Kog, on the other hand, has HIGHER mana costs than they do, and SIMULTAENOUSLY has no hard cc to save his ass like they do.

So in what way shape or form does he not carry weaknesses?

NineTailedMystic12 votes

W is an AA steroid that gives him more range and stay out of interaction range.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[deleted]

NineTailedMystic1 votes

wat.

It may be shorter, but it still lets him get in free hits until you can retaliate.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

wat.

It may be shorter, but it still lets him get in free hits until you can retaliate.

AP Kog is going to have at most one point in his W in the laning phase.

If whoever you're playing mid can't punish him for waddling into Level 1 W range, then that's on you.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

With all that FREEEEE mana I have early game and where auto attacks are actually worth something on an AP.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

With all that FREEEEE mana I have early game and where auto attacks are actually worth something on an AP.

His W also costs mana.

His E costs more mana than many champs Ults.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

40 Mana is non-existent.

E doesn't cost more until rank 4/5.

astralwit3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Bt0ROna,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-09-29T06:03:27.892+0000)

I feel like people don't understand the basic principles that made AP Kog very unbearable, and the reason behind why Riot doesn't support it anymore. For one, he is not built around being an Artillery champion, and I mean this by laning phase. Each of the champions who siege AP, Lux, Ziggs, Xerath, each have their passive dedicated around their AA, which are 550. These passives rewarded them for this, with damage or mana.

Kog doesn't have that, so once he starts getting his mana problem fixed, he can mindlessly clear waves with E, avoiding interaction as far as his Ult can afford him. When Late game comes waddling around, he now has the longest range siege on a lower CD than any other sieger, and he doesn't have to worry about mana much either with full build. Base that around 4 other team members, and he becomes obnoxious fast.

Kog, while he may have been fun as artillery, does not have the same weaknesses and design focuses that other Siege champions have, as his kit was focused around being an ADC when he was designed. I don't like to say this much, but it's not fun being on the other side of AP Kog, having to dart your way around his artillery strikes every 2-1 seconds, especially late game, and I do think people who want it back don't realize it due to a bit of bias.

I hope you're joking... Ziggs and Lux are infinitely safer than Kog and have far more flexible builds (just generally requiring fewer stats to be effective while also being much better from behind due to their utiltiy). Kog can waveclear better but that's about all and honestly, in a competitive game, it's not hard to 2v1 dive Kog after he gets a little poked. I've had it happend to me a ton with Kayns, Elises, Sions etc. Kog does not survive to mid game unscathed vs competent teams.

If anything, I think you're the one who's biased. You don't want to play vs poke and you don't want to adjust your play to take advantage of the early-mid game advantage literally every mid has vs him if played well. And if you're really sitting there mid or wherever dodging Rs a lot, your team's probably dumb and just not using their brains at all to come up with a strategy. Moreover, Kog's poke right now is neither strong, nor cheap. He can R 3-4 times but after that, it's too expensive to have a good fight. Unless stacks reset, he'll be running oom too fast in fights.

ModAcademy Kayn7 votes

I don't think you're giving Kog players enough credit honestly. Old Kog had 0 reason to interact with you outside of spamming an 1280 range spell, which allowed him to take a backseat clearing waves while he waits for that mid-game/late. Once he got his choice mana fixing, he could easily stay out of range minding his own business. Unless you were playing an ubermobile assassin like Zed or Leblanc, or matched his range, you were going to have a very hard time against AP Kog.

2v1 applies to anyone, save most Juggs. Kog had the tools and range to avoid getting ganked in the first place.

I wouldn't think I'm biased, concerning that I play Ziggs, currently learning Xerath, and have dabbled with Lux a couple of times. Siege champions who actually have incentive to interact with you early game, by weaving in autos for some sort of benefit, bringing them with the 550 range. And yes, you're dumb if you don't engage on a Siege champion. But their team can engage just as well, and Kog has the longest range on his primary Siege ability.

So what actually happens is that they engage, and your carries are too busy playing dodgle the Koggle to do anything. Unless you specifically played assassins, AP Kog is going to get a free key to sit in the backline and wreck havoc, as he has longer poke on his Ult, his primary siege, than any other Siege champion, settling in at 1800.

And the main difference between Kog and other Siege champions, Is that the other champions are slower, and they have lulls in their pattern. Ziggs still has a 4 second CD on his late game, and if ya can get 40 CDR, only comes close to what Kog's is. It gives appropriate time to do something after dodging it. Kog with his 1 sec CD, did not, and that was his problem.

Madsin251 votes

AP kogs weakness lies in his laning phase and INSANE mana costs. Extremely blue buff dependent to deal dps through the mid game.

You act like kog gets a free ticket into late game but this is so far from true unless your team carries you.

Cosnirak4 votes

It doesn't make things better in terms of fun that his weakness is early game and mana issues. It helps keep his win rate down, no doubt about that. But it doesn't make him any more fun or interactive to face. In fact in a way it makes it worse, as all he wants to do early game is farm and play safe.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't make things better in terms of fun that his weakness is early game and mana issues. It helps keep his win rate down, no doubt about that. But it doesn't make him any more fun or interactive to face. In fact in a way it makes it worse, as all he wants to do early game is farm and play safe.

I'm convinced that this game started its downhill slide when Riot decided that 'how fun is this to lose against?' would be the driving principle behind champion design rather than 'how fun is this to play as?'. It isn't fun to lose against anything, but a bland champion on a bland map will always be bland.

Cosnirak1 votes

Riot clearly hasn't gone down that road yet. And while I totally agree that trying to not piss off anyone tends to result in something no one loves, there are still limits. If something is infuriating to play against even when you beat it, that's a big red flag. But even if something is only infuriating when you lose to it, if that's all champions that means roughly half of everyone's games are infuriating. I don't play games that are like that. That's why I stopped playing Hearthstone. I've had fun despite losing in plenty of League games.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Riot clearly hasn't gone down that road yet. And while I totally agree that trying to not piss off anyone tends to result in something no one loves, there are still limits. If something is infuriating to play against even when you beat it, that's a big red flag. But even if something is only infuriating when you lose to it, if that's all champions that means roughly half of everyone's games are infuriating. I don't play games that are like that. That's why I stopped playing Hearthstone. I've had fun despite losing in plenty of League games.

Honestly I don't feel like there are any (or have ever been any) champions like that.

Even when Nid was at her absolute most obnoxious, I still felt an absolute sense of triumph when I finally managed to pin her down and kill her. I don't know about anyone else, but I've always felt deep satisfaction when I get a kill on one of the champions I hate playing against the most.

LaughingStapler11 votes

I had 1000 AP Kog games over seasons 4 and 5. I basically stopped playing League after AP Kog's viability was ruined. It told me that Riot doesn't care about his alternative playstyle and in that case, I don't care about the game as much. AP Kog was the most fun I ever had in League.

NineTailedMystic8 votes

How about no. AP Kog was incredibly frustrating to play against and just overall unfun. Broken E hitbox that did absurd damage early for laning phase, and then post 6 just uninteractive "whack a mole" with his R and you being the mole.

DynamiteGazelle7 votes

Yeeeeeeesssssssssssssssss. I absolutely loved AP Kog and was devastated when they nerfed the bejeezus out of it for no real reason

Thefrostyviking7 votes

I don't recall exactly but i think the issue with AP kog was his range, waveclear, low interaction (especially later on) and the exact fact that he as a poke built mage but had DPS.

They're not meant to have both.

So they dropped the nerf hammer on his waveclear and lanepoke in order to justify him having both, and sure its a lot harder now but i´ve actually seen a few here and there.

I still play it in aram on the off chance that i get kog there....

Marshbouy6 votes

Nearly 1/3 of Kog Players Went AP Before the Latest Reworks

where is this information? I can't find it.

astralwit4 votes

{quoted}

where is this information? I can't find it.

If you were around then, you could see that information on stat sites based on roles. At one point, AP was actually better than AD and more than half played him AP. I'm not aware of stat sites which preserve info for different seasons.

Baron Von Bangin5 votes

So there's no source?

Kloqdq6 votes

AP Kog'maw made me want to kill myself. That shit was the most obnoxious and toxic thing I have dealt with.

The Yetii Rider6 votes

"AP Kog late was the ONLY surgical poke champion with solid DPS vs tanks due to W, "

That's probably why he was changed, actually. Tanks are supposed to beat mages and assassins.

Valeckserai6 votes

"Fantastic burst and good dps"

You just stated the reasons why AP Kog is not allowed to be good. The champions that have this (Cass and Ryze) are extremely gated by range. Kog just sits back a million miles away with his ult and gets the best of both worlds, the burst and range of an artilery mage and the sustained dps of an adc. Something like that is cancerous and should not exist. The only people having fun with AP Kog were the ones playing him. Some of the least fun games I've had were vs ap Kog. It was cancerous and doesn't deserve to come back.

z63XnLCMwX4 votes

I still play AP kog. He needs higher base damage on his E and R, other wise it's fine.

SweedishGunner4 votes

Ratios should be buffed, not base damage, that just makes AD Kog stronger.

Kídá4 votes

IRC, One of the reason that AP KogMaw was nerfed was because Riot felt it was unhealthy when he would constantly hit you with R + item 3116 so you would have a bad time getting close enough to fight back. I remember I posted about it a long time ago asking why did they nerf AP kog because of how he played with item 3116 but would not do anything about Ezreal + item 3025 which basically did the same "unhealthy" thing.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Because Ez Q cannot go through targets nor did it have a range of over 1000? It also didn't provide any actual damage (was a little better than sheen) whereas Rylais was still giving 100 AP at this point.

rtbf2256182414 votes

If you want a godly poke ap champion just play Xerath.

Vallalan4 votes

ap kog is fine. its still viable. it just takes longer to ramp up and his wave clear isn't quite as good although its still good.

Ive played it a few times since the nerfs. its not strong as in meta strong, but its not bad either.

and that's how it should be.

his ult has 1800 range on a 1 second cooldown late game.

that's stupid. sure its gated by rising mana cost, but with a huge mana pool (seraphs + nomicon) its pretty easy to spam like 4 or 5 of them and then wait to reset for poke. and then in a team fight u can jsut exhaust your entire mana pool.

nevemrind that is E has huge range and does a shit ton of damage with ap.

the main play pattern of ap kog is the ult though.

and that ult has to be gated the way it is.

if it goes back to the way it was you can just endlessly spam that shit and reset very quickly. it makes siege kog insanely oppressive if the enemy does not have dive. hell he STILL is if the enemy does not have a way of getting to him.

AP kog is super unhealthy. fun, but unhealthy. and this is coming from a player who had an account dedicated to just playing ap kog.

I don't think you should want ap kog to be buffed anyway because if hes strong enough to be meta that means he is banned and if hes banned you can't play him.

SirLime2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charlie Tilts U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Bt0ROna,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2017-09-29T20:15:08.476+0000)

ap kog is fine. its still viable. it just takes longer to ramp up and his wave clear isn't quite as good although its still good.

Ive played it a few times since the nerfs. its not strong as in meta strong, but its not bad either.

and that's how it should be.

his ult has 1800 range on a 1 second cooldown late game.

that's stupid. sure its gated by rising mana cost, but with a huge mana pool (seraphs + nomicon) its pretty easy to spam like 4 or 5 of them and then wait to reset for poke. and then in a team fight u can jsut exhaust your entire mana pool.

nevemrind that is E has huge range and does a shit ton of damage with ap.

the main play pattern of ap kog is the ult though.

and that ult has to be gated the way it is.

if it goes back to the way it was you can just endlessly spam that shit and reset very quickly. it makes siege kog insanely oppressive if the enemy does not have dive. hell he STILL is if the enemy does not have a way of getting to him.

AP kog is super unhealthy. fun, but unhealthy. and this is coming from a player who had an account dedicated to just playing ap kog.

I don't think you should want ap kog to be buffed anyway because if hes strong enough to be meta that means he is banned and if hes banned you can't play him.

It's not unhealthy in the slightest with the current kit (you may have a point if you're talking about his kit back when R did double damage to champions regardless of HP). Anything can be made to sound that way on paper. The truth is, AP Kog is the opposite of unhealthy to such an extent that he's barely viable. He's not a Riven with infinite jumps and shields or an Ekko who does what he pleases then ults. when in trouble or as a finisher, a Kassadin diving your back line then blinking out every 2 seconds, or Morg mid (basically ungankable, pushes and spellvamps up while shielding damage... she Qs you die if it lands) etc.

Despite his range, he has a very unforgiving style and is more dependent on his team/vision than other champions. Just because something has long range (and his poke's pathetic now unless you're at his thresholds) doesn't automatically make them unhealthy and nor can you focus on a single ability then make it out to be that the entire champion is unhealthy just because that one thing is strong. AP Kog's problem is actually that there is TOO MUCH counterplay to him both in terms of strategy and just mechanically. Plus, with how his kit is now, you absolutely have to use his entire kit if you don't want to be a liability. The old sit back and R style does not work outside of cleanup.

Vallalan2 votes

1800 range is way too high. if his range was nerfed to where it capped at maybe his level 11 range he would be healthy.

but you really are underestimating how big 1800 range is. like you can hit people from fog of war over a screen away. you can poke people and they can't even see you.

SirLime3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charlie Tilts U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Bt0ROna,comment-id=002100000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T21:34:53.458+0000)

1800 range is way too high. if his range was nerfed to where it capped at maybe his level 11 range he would be healthy.

but you really are underestimating how big 1800 range is. like you can hit people from fog of war over a screen away. you can poke people and they can't even see you.

it isn't at all considering the rest of his kit and that's why he has the shit mid winrates that he does (low 40s on leagueofgraphs)

you're just blinded by one ability (which again, isn't even good poke vs normal targets after the changes and it takes 30 minutes to reach that 1800 range)

I could sit here and make a huge thread about how OP Yasuo's windwall is or Fizz's E, Kayn's E or Brand's R or a million other things. None of those abilities exist by themselves. Ultimately, what determines whether something is OP or not is actual performance in higher ELO as well as competitive.

Vallalan2 votes

im not arguing that ap kog is op. im saying he's balanced currently and doesn't need buffs. and you can't really buff him too much because of his toxic ultimate.

regardless of game balance its very toxic.

yasuo's windwall is also toxic. but t hat's a discussion for another thread.

Denims Wrath6662 votes

wish the'd bring back machine gun kog. all they gotta do is make it so when he w's, if he moves he loses attack speed. he has to be stationary to enjoy w.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

I agree. It's not fair that a perfectly balanced playstyle was just removed for no reason.

While trying to make ADC kog balanced they just casually deleted AP kog. And it was very clear they did it on purpose.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

I agree. It's not fair that a perfectly balanced playstyle was just removed for no reason.

While trying to make ADC kog balanced they just casually deleted AP kog. And it was very clear they did it on purpose.

Honestly, I still think they should have upped the AP ratio on his W when they nerfed the AP ratio on his E if they were wanting Koggers to take more risk for the same reward. It would have at least made it kind of look like they weren't totally biased.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I still think they should have upped the AP ratio on his W when they nerfed the AP ratio on his E if they were wanting Koggers to take more risk for the same reward. It would have at least made it kind of look like they weren't totally biased.

It was obvious from the very beginning they were trying to delete Kog. They didn't want anybody to think otherwise.

More from Gameplay

More by SirPurrr