Why do reds ignore every Lee Sin thread?

hmmm wasn't he the most dominant jungler pick in competitive for what 4 seasons now? Doesn't that seem a bit too dominant to you?

Lee Sin has been nerfed before, but NEVER quickly, and NEVER like other champs are (hi Olaf!). While it's nice that he's no longer considered an extremely strong pick mid and top any more(though he can still do both just fine), it would be nice if he was nerfed a little more so he wasn't a necessary pick or ban for once in the jungle. Maybe we could at least try that for one patch, just to see what happens?

Except he's still dominant. That's what everyone keeps telling Riot and won't listen. He is picked an outrageously large amount of the time in competitive play because he's literally EVERYTHING that is needed in 1 champion. He has a mechanic in his kit to deal with EVERY SITUATION and EVERY CHAMPION. He can 100-0 an ADC with ONE damage item mid game. He is complete anti-fun. He isn't high skill cap. Insec can be learned by anyone who has any desire to learn it.

But you let that happen. When both Elise and Lee Sin were dominating (In fact only Lee sin was dominating, and Elise was the only one who could handle him) you nerfed Elise and not Lee Sin, and just in case you nerfed her once time more when it wasn't needed.

And this has happened every time Lee sin shared the "top jungle" with someone instead of being he "the only one king of the jungle".

{quoted} You have a good point, we shouldn't only focus on the bottom of the barrel champs as you say. Sometimes fixing an overly dominant pick can open up doors for a lot of other champs. I'll do some more analysis and talk to the balance team about his current state to make sure we are doing all that we should for the character. I have a feeling that he was not the top of their priority list in the most recent patch (cough warwick).

It's not that you're focusing on bottom of the barrel champs, it's the fact that anyone who becomes a competitor for Lee Sin in the jungle gets gutted (Elise) or nerfed to the point they're no longer viable in competitive pro play. Other champions have been nerfed for reasons that apply to Lee Sin also, but you guys seem EXTREMELY reluctant to touch him at all, aside from the love tap he received in early/mid S4.

Well i kind of agree with focusing on fixing those "bottom of the barrel" champs. Maybe reworking them will actually fix the Lee Sin problem?

HUGE leap here but stay with me ;)... What if reworked Poppy jungle becomes a thing, and she does really well against Lee Sin. Now Poppy is the FoTM, but what if a previously thought to be useless champ does really well against or with Poppy jungle. Now we have a few more choices other then just Lee Sin and whoever can deal with him.

Obviously Lee does need some work, he is too well-rounded even exceeding in places he really shouldnt, but reworking outdated champs opens up whole new compositions, composition where maybe there are better picks then Lee Sin or champions that shine more then Lee Sin.

Fixing an overly dominant pick can open up new spots, but so can fixing an outdated champion (plus those are more exciting lol). Besides getting all champions on a more even playing field first, will help balance those "overpowered" champs later.

{quoted} Good point, let's ask the constructive question. What are the essential and most unique elements of Lee Sin?

His mobility. I have never played Lee Sin, but his mobility is the highlighting factor of his playstyle and how I fight him when it comes down to it. He really only has two spells that jump, but they take up so much of his strategical thinking compared to his other abilities that the others are kinda just there to other players (I mean, what can you do against his ult but just be a target?)

From a fighting standpoint, Lee does great early due to high numbers and high mobility, and decent tankiness that can keep him in fights when damage isn't high. Late game he becomes more of a support, peeling and keeping people away from his carry. Most people know that. Most people really don't end up transitioning into that late game ideal, and end up falling off like a rock dropped into the pond. So honestly, all he needs is focus in his kit. Damage, or utility?

{quoted} Good point, let's ask the constructive question. What are the essential and most unique elements of Lee Sin?

Okay, I'll take a stab. I think that Lee Sin is defined by his crazy mobility. He's in the top 5 of most mobile champions in lol. He can engage fights in many different ways. He does a respectable amount of damage and has the ability to outplay his opponent at any time with the right timing of skills and mechanical execution. He's a unique mobile fighter who tries to out maneuver his opponent in order to achieve victory. That being said here are things that Lee Sin has, that he should NOT have.

1. Free Lifesteal and Spell vamp
2. TOO much utility (shield, slow, reveal, knockup) one of these has got to go.
3. Manaless. Pays 0 cost for missed skillshots. Has many "get out of jail" free cards due to his mobility.
4. Extremely high base damage abilities. This allows for him to build full tank and still be extremely useful due to the utility he brings.

Easiest way to nerf Lee and bring him from "100% pick/ban in every competitive match" remove his free spell vamp, no reason for that shiz and lower his bases, but improve his ratios. Force him to build damage in order to do damage.

I agree with the other comments. Most of Lee's identity is wrapped up in his crazy mobility.

He's unique from other high mobility champs because (1) he is the only high mobility champion that uses energy and (2) he has two mobility spells that have vastly different requirements for using them (Q requires an enemy or neutral unit, W requires an ally or ward).

Personally, I think if you were to focus on anything to emphasize with him, it would be that mobility. I also think that it would be fine for Lee to have either decent damage or decent utility coupled with his mobility, but not both like he has now.

While I think you should emphasize Lee's mobility more, I think you also make some adjustments to it. Currently, Lee doesn't have a lot of meaningful decisions tied up with his mobility. Other high mobility champions are typically gated by a resource (e.g. Kass), by circumstances not entirely under their control (e.g. Yasuo), or require careful planning and zone control (Rek'Sai).

A lot of other high mobility champions also tend to "pay" for their mistakes when they use their mobility, either by being squishy (e.g. Ez) or having meaningful cooldowns attached to their mobility.

Lee Sin, on the other hand, is pretty tanky, has high base movement speed, has low energy costs, has low cooldowns, and has multiple mobility spells in his kit.

Personally, I don't want to see Lee's mobility butchered as much as I want to see it shift to reward good play with teammates and interaction with the enemy. I think Lee Sin should have to rely on his enemies and his allies for his mobility on the battlefield. Lee Sin should also be less forgiving when he misuses his mobility.

I picture Lee Sin to be the more offensive-oriented version of Shen. While Shen uses his mobility to protect his team (and is punished severely when he fails to do so), Lee Sin should use his mobility to fight the enemy (and be punished when he chooses not to do so). I think Lee should have very high mobility and low cooldowns in a fight, but should have drastically less mobility once he disengages from the enemy team.

I think that your ward-hop change for Lee that was (almost) implemented was on the right track. However, I think you can't just change his W and expect to solve the problem: you also need to modify the rest of his kit to be more focused on his mobility and less on either his utility or damage.

Make a new thread asking this, so all the discussion is focused and the tone can be more set.

To answer the question, though: Highly situational multi-point power. Great mobility... if he lands a skillshot or is near allies. Great utility... if a knockback or reveal are needed. Great damage... if he can get on a mark with low health/mobility. His kit reflects this strategic thinking, being clearly conditional in most ways.

In terms of fantasy and feel, though? High mobility, and Hi-KUUUU! Those are the distilled essence of Lee Sin.

His crazy, jump-all-around mobility is pretty much what defines Lee Sin. And his Dragon's Rage Roundhouse kick.

What I really liked about the rework that was popping up ages ago was the ult change: Instead of frontloading all the damage, independant of how he uses it, it halfed the initial damage, but added 50% of the removed damage for every champion the initial target collided with (same damage as live if colliding with 2 other champions). Making it so that it clearly distinguished between the purpose of damaging a target (kicking it through a team) and the purpose of just moving a target out of position (no further collision).

look at his ult damage. 200% ad scaling + 600 base.

The problem is his early game is really strong, ganking, escapes, mobility, dueling. Since its so easy to do well early game, he should really fall off late game like Katarina. But he never does. You see, falling off means you're able to do less, that other champs will be superior for your role.

But Lee Sin is just as awesome late game. He does NOT fall off. In damage yes, because you build tanky. If you build damage, he's still amazing? So why do players stop building him damage? Solution: Because as a tank he's EVEN BETTER in team fights. His ult is game changing, his mobility is still amazing as well. That's why.

Lee Sin never falls off. In fact, he's even worse. His role shifts to what is most needed at every stage of the game, and he's great at every single one.