why is grasp/glacial augment reduced for ranged

SiG DxD·Jul 21, 2019·67 votes·16,903 views

but not kleptomancy for example

why isnt there a clear line between melee and range ?

hi klepto abuser

84 Comments

InfernapeJul 21, 201912 votes

Klepto should only trigger if the ability that procs it hits a champion.

RagnaveilJul 22, 20192 votes

This.

wildfox9TJul 22, 20192 votes

removing that AA thing and making it proc directly on the ability hit would be even better

Anu3isIIJul 22, 20195 votes

It would be too good and abusable. Not all champions who like Klepto have to land abilities (like Sona with her Q), so they would just spam them without AA-ing the opponents.

abca98Jul 22, 20191 votes

Sona Stonks.

VentusKingJul 21, 20199 votes

gold sacs should straight up be removed and it should be nerfed to 1 klepto proc per ability on 5-2 sec based on lvl cd between procs

KanzlerJul 21, 201932 votes

Congrats, you've made klepto worthless which was probably your intent.

VentusKingJul 21, 201911 votes

it's far from useless it still gives 5 gold per klepto hit and items. The gold sacs are just the biggest bs there is a mage abusing toplane shouldnt be able to gain a 1000 gold lead from a rune by abusing a meele match up thats the biggest bs they ever invented

KanzlerJul 22, 201912 votes

5 whole gold. Without the gold procs, tbe gold earned from those 5g hits is really shit. With how long it would take to get a meaningful gold income from klepto, why would you take it over a combat rune?

Meteora707Jul 22, 201914 votes

no klepto is indeed useless after this change, I'm completely fine with that though.

Anu3isIIJul 22, 20191 votes

You give up a Keystone for that Gold Advantage tho. Without it, why wouldn't ranged people pick Aery again and poke melee's to death? The dynamic of the lane wouldn't change much, you would still have ranged people abuse melee people because of the range difference.

VentusKingJul 22, 20191 votes

It would still give you a hell lot of stats in form of elixirs give you wards even gives you another skill point sometimes either completly remove the items or the gold.

Anu3isIIJul 22, 20191 votes

You talk about high rolls, which I bet most people would prefer to avoid facing those over a sack of gold. You do realise that removing the sacks will result in Riot buffing their rates and making a Klepto users more oppressive, right? Besides, they would always have the option to sell some of them for gold.

Overall, since this rune is used mostly by people who trigger it with a ranged ability or ranged autos (when vs melees), it is clear that ranged champions and some special cases abuse it while melees mostly find it underwhelming. If you want to balance it, you would better suggest ideas that lower this discrepancy, not straight-out make it useless for most of the roster.

VentusKingJul 23, 20191 votes

There shouldnt be a rune which gives you a straight up 1000 gold lead while also being ahead in the first place. Especially with how low cost Mage items are especially the Zhonya protobelt combo.

Anu3isIIJul 23, 20191 votes

It doesn't give straight up 1k gold. It builds over time, it depends on RNG and, most importantly, it requires you to have range advantage.
The only mages who really use Klepto are Kennen and Karma. Kennen has always been this bully for melee ppl, while Karma has been buffed recently to make her more viable and she either builds Tank or Support items, so considering her is a bit of a stretch. Some other mages have historically used, but never in their traditional AP build (like On-Hit TF or Tank Viktor). So it seems more of an issue you personally have with Kennen (who happens to build the combo you mentioned).
While the rune does bring a huge gold lead when ahead, you easily ignore that it does not offer any reliable power to build that lead. Some champions that work well with it still pick some alternative runes to increase their individual power and bully/win against their opponent while trading snowball potential. 1k gold lead can be annoying, but your opponent chooses to build that lead. Imagine if the opponent tried instead to bully you into being more behind in gold, effectively negating you. Sure, your opponent wouldn't have much of a gold advantage over your team, but they would still make you feel bad and weak.

Pierce The VealJul 23, 20191 votes

Then there’s literally no point to using it over another rune which would be providing far more than the few hundred gold you can get from just 5 gold on autos from kleptomancy.

RagnaveilJul 22, 20193 votes

Heres the thing though: Klepto users have other runes to fall back on. GP? Grasp Tank top Karma? Aery or Grasp (mainly Aery) Kennen? Phase Rush or Electrocute (Aery for poke even) Ez? Comet, Electrocute, or Fleet (maybe even Sum Spellbook). These Ez ones seem questionable because Klepto is like the only rune he uses period. Have no real way to gauge the strength of the other runes if they get overshadowed that hard by Klepto.

Anu3isIIJul 22, 20191 votes

Except that even for the picks you mentioned Klepto isn't the main rune of all of them (based on Pick Rate), so it doesn't really overshadow the other runes you mentioned. I would argue that it is even a situational rune for most of them, based on the match-up and/or play style.

Take Karma, if she wants to go Klepto she most probably goes Top, builds Tank and faces a melee character. Just based on all these conditions you realise that Klepto isn't her main Rune, Aery being almost always being the better/safer pick.

KlydeFrogJul 24, 20191 votes

Seeing electrocute and comet or aery ez does more damage vices klepto doing no damage. Or take glacial augmentin congrats you have a free iceborn .

PaffWasTakenJul 22, 20191 votes

To be honest, since everything it went through from start to finish didn't make it balanced yet, it straight up deserves to be removed from the game at this point

Tuition FeeJul 21, 20198 votes

I have never seen any melee champions take glacial augment. Maybe it's because I'm in gold, or the fact that it's already a lesser chosen rune, but seriously, never, ever, ever, have I seen a melee champion use it.

General Esdeath Jul 21, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tuition Fee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYqFm25v,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-21T20:36:00.857+0000)

I have never seen any melee champions take glacial augment. Maybe it's because I'm in gold, or the fact that it's already a lesser chosen rune, but seriously, never, ever, ever, have I seen a melee champion use it.

Only one I've ever seen is Garen for the bush cheese

wolviusJul 21, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYqFm25v,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-21T21:59:59.953+0000)

Only one I've ever seen is for the bush cheese

Tilterilla uses it on sion sometimes for the passive, he can gets triple kills with it at early invades. And also when runes decide to give you default inspiration because riot cant fix bugs even with old morde gone.

Overall rarely used

hiyaresJul 21, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tuition Fee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYqFm25v,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-21T20:36:00.857+0000)

I have never seen any melee champions take glacial augment. Maybe it's because I'm in gold, or the fact that it's already a lesser chosen rune, but seriously, never, ever, ever, have I seen a melee champion use it.

Chogath is litteraly the only melee champ i know of that ever used it because it went well with his over all kit and let him stay on people easily

Anu3isIIJul 22, 20192 votes

Chogath Sion TahmKench have seen some play with it, tho idk if it is as good people say.

Pool Party PixJul 21, 20198 votes

What? Grasp reduced for ranged? What the hell are you talking about? Gangplank

Daddy AntsJul 22, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pool Party Pix,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYqFm25v,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-21T21:57:40.576+0000)

What? Grasp reduced for ranged? What the hell are you talking about?

GP isn't ranged.

His attack range is 125 which is considered melee.

AyzevJul 22, 20193 votes

Are you deliberately missing the joke?

SweedishGunnerJul 22, 20195 votes

Ezreal $ells too many $kins to get nerfed.

The thigh guyJul 22, 20192 votes

Because ranged is also so restricted in everything that melee is almost a fucking benefit at this point?

RagnaveilJul 22, 201911 votes

"Ranged has it rough compared to melees qq" Care to remember Ardent meta? Cuz man did ranged users have such a...rough time then.

TheorexJul 22, 20197 votes

As a ranged mage player, we did.

I think you meant to say Auto Attack Based Champions, had it rough then.

Kthx

RagnaveilJul 22, 20196 votes

Mages i'll give you. And I merely mentioned ranged cuz the person I replied to has said ADCs have it the worst in multiple posts multiple times. Should I have said just ranged? No.

GinoSoldierJul 22, 20192 votes

{quoted}

"Ranged has it rough compared to melees qq" Care to remember Ardent meta? Cuz man did ranged users have such a...rough time then.

As if there aren't a number of melee hypercarries that didn't also benefit highly.

Many melees that are AA reliant were high priority picks during that time.

BeatzBoyFTWJul 22, 20193 votes

That explains why ranged mains kept on pussy-ing towards top lane.

RagnaveilJul 22, 20194 votes

Its almost like its not the range disparity combined with early game's influence gives them so much power on the get go. Nah, it couldnt be that.

The thigh guyJul 22, 20194 votes

{quoted}

That explains why ranged mains kept on pussy-ing towards top lane.

Oh yeah. The entire teemo (who’s been top for years), Quinn (who’s been top for years), urgot (who’s been top for years) and kennen (again, who’s been top for years).

But yeah. Ranged champions are just flocking into top lane right?

LTK KoRoJul 22, 20192 votes

you forgot about jayce and neeko, two most staple meta picks since midseason

Pika FoxJul 22, 20192 votes

Because ADCs giving up early power for late game gold is fine.

ADCs/Ranged getting lots of extra HP is not, as that directly hinders burst mages and assassins much harder than other jobs.

A 5 item ADC still dies in about the same time as a 2 item ADC.

LTK KoRoJul 22, 20191 votes

A 5 item ADC still dies in about the same time as a 2 item ADC.

item 3046 item 3812 item 3026 item 3072 item 3139

yeah sure. And no, i don't mean ADCs build all of these items at once, but most ADCs can fit at least one of these into their builds

Pika FoxJul 22, 20191 votes

Lifesteal doesnt counter burst, and pd is just another 300ish hp on a cd. They dont make an ADC unreasonably tanky

goodiesohhiJul 23, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYqFm25v,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T13:08:50.976+0000)

Lifesteal doesnt counter burst, and pd is just another 300ish hp on a cd. They dont make an ADC unreasonably tanky

Dunce. It's not lifesteal. Mercurial is an mr item and Deaths Dance has the bleed passive. BT has the big shield. Notice he didn't put botrk? Those 3 lifesteal items have passives or other stats that make you live longer.... Deaths Dance counters burst by design. So does idk having magic resist or a shield?

Pika FoxJul 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Dunce. It's not lifesteal. Mercurial is an mr item and Deaths Dance has the bleed passive. BT has the big shield. Notice he didn't put botrk? Those 3 lifesteal items have passives or other stats that make you live longer.... Deaths Dance counters burst by design. So does idk having magic resist or a shield?

Merc isnt enough MR to matter on an adc against burst, the QSS portion is what is useful.

Bts shield isnt big enough for strict burst.

DD isnt a very usable ADC item.

goodiesohhiJul 23, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYqFm25v,comment-id=00070000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-23T23:06:26.729+0000)

Merc isnt enough MR to matter on an adc against burst, the QSS portion is what is useful.

Bts shield isnt big enough for strict burst.

DD isnt a very usable ADC item.

That wasn't the point. You mentioned that lifesteal doesn't counter burst when that was not the intended statement. Don't try to dodge that. First off. Even a little bit of mr greatly increases your damage reduction to magic. That's how resist stats work in this game. 25 mr is 20% damage reduction. The formula for the multiplier is 100/(100+MR), every bit of magic resist requires you to do 1% more magic damage to kill that champ. 35 extra mr means that an adc needs to take more than 1.33 times the damage compared to not having the 35 magic damage. Furthermore, everyone here says yasuo's shield prevents him from being bursted, bt is only like 100 hp less than yasuo's passive. The dd part? Didn't Draven use to abuse DD? There's nothing inherently bad about it for adc's not to take. There are situations for it.

Pika FoxJul 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That wasn't the point. You mentioned that lifesteal doesn't counter burst when that was not the intended statement. Don't try to dodge that. First off. Even a little bit of mr greatly increases your damage reduction to magic. That's how resist stats work in this game. 25 mr is 20% damage reduction. The formula for the multiplier is 100/(100+MR), every bit of magic resist requires you to do 1% more magic damage to kill that champ. 35 extra mr means that an adc needs to take more than 1.33 times the damage compared to not having the 35 magic damage. Furthermore, everyone here says yasuo's shield prevents him from being bursted, bt is only like 100 hp less than yasuo's passive. The dd part? Didn't Draven use to abuse DD? There's nothing inherently bad about it for adc's not to take. There are situations for it.

Except burst mages overkill the ADC by 500-1k+ HP and have penetration to back it up. A single MR item on an ADC will not save them. QSS is used because the fraction of a second you get QSS+Flash could dodge an ability that would kill you or get you out before they finish their combo if you predict its use instead of react to it. Unless youre running MR+HP, a single MR item just will not save you.

Yas shield helps early game. Prevents an instant burst up to level 8 or so, coupled with his windwall. His shield alone rarely saves him at level 6 if he doesnt windwall something

It has situational fringe use, sure, but it has less healing and AD than BT with a worse build path, so its generally just not going to see use on an AD outside of someone like late game ezreal maybe sometimes because he actually runs resists to make him more sustainable. ADCs arent durable enough to make DD worth taking over straight up doing more damage and hoping you dont misposition. Any situation DD would be useful is a situation you shouldnt have been in in the first place.

goodiesohhiJul 25, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYqFm25v,comment-id=0007000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-24T01:44:42.835+0000)

Except burst mages overkill the ADC by 500-1k+ HP and have penetration to back it up. A single MR item on an ADC will not save them. QSS is used because the fraction of a second you get QSS+Flash could dodge an ability that would kill you or get you out before they finish their combo if you predict its use instead of react to it. Unless youre running MR+HP, a single MR item just will not save you.

Yas shield helps early game. Prevents an instant burst up to level 8 or so, coupled with his windwall. His shield alone rarely saves him at level 6 if he doesnt windwall something

It has situational fringe use, sure, but it has less healing and AD than BT with a worse build path, so its generally just not going to see use on an AD outside of someone like late game ezreal maybe sometimes because he actually runs resists to make him more sustainable. ADCs arent durable enough to make DD worth taking over straight up doing more damage and hoping you dont misposition. Any situation DD would be useful is a situation you shouldnt have been in in the first place.

You're still dodging the point. I've seen enough of your posts to realize that it's meaningless to converse with you. Good day friend.

Demacian SaintJul 22, 20192 votes

So my understanding of this logic is the following: ranged champions can more easily proc Grasp/Glacial when compared to their Melee counterparts. So for the simple reason of outranging melee champs, their benefits are reduced for Grasp and Glacial. As for why Klepto is not nerfed for ranged: you're trying to take advantage of your kit to gain as much gold as possible. I may just be thinking differently but that's just me.