took a look at all the tentative AP itemization changes

Very Hard Engage··56 votes·2,260 views

they all have reduced AP for favorable utility stats like health, flat mana, sustain, or some new unique actives.

but my major concern is... more CDR... less AP, how exactly do you expect mages to kill people again?

CDR is great, but when you take 10, 20, or half of an items AP away what exactly do you expect us to have to kill people with? that means up to 3 rotations, or 2 rotations + an ult to kill some squishy. most of which are skill shots....

a build like athenes/morello, archangel staff, zhonyas, rab cap, sorc boots, ludens is set to only give 500~600AP with 30% CDR. (40, 120, 80, 120, 100) x 1.3 = 598 (WTB void staff....)

i sincerely hope mages get better scalings to compensate. for this severe loss in damage.

41 Comments

Çhåryzård33 votes

"we want zhonyas to be more about utility"

raises cooldown, lowers damage, adds a lil bit of cdr

"here ya go!"

meanwhile midlane, the enemy is able to ult you again before the cooldown on zhonyas is done

Old Man Teeto27 votes

At least they dropped the price 500g.

Now you can afford it after only 5 deaths to Zed.

Wimbledofy21 votes

"we want rod of ages to be able to compete with the new item we added... so we made it weaker"

Çhåryzård13 votes

{quoted}

"we want rod of ages to be able to compete with the new item we added... so we made it weaker"

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

SeargentAnus5 votes

Good thing you don't get an extremely strong passive on just item 3155 for half the gold of zhonyas /s

Blue Moon Wolf4 votes

Something tells me the cooldown on Zhonya's isn't going to stay that high. Having to wait that long for it's passive just to add a crappy 10% CDR. Honestly, the should just leave it the way it is. They are already making just about EVERY other AP item get 10% CDR(at least), why not make it the AP item that doesn't give cooldown, but gives higher stats?

Ralanr2 votes

I'm just worried about Fizz using it.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Oh I'm sure he will be to busy abusing Hextech rocket belt to use Zhonya's... right? .__. ;

Ralanr2 votes

I don't know, 10% CDR on top of the active? What more could he freaking want? Our very souls?!

akroOma15 votes

You guys are such noobs! Building AP items on AP Mages LOL! Everyone knows you're so suppose to build tank items on everything. Sheesh!

Chaotic Reks10 votes

Not to mention about 90% of mana regen is gone too.

IcyPepper2 votes

They didn't just remove it, ya know :P

They want mages more reliant on flat mana, and there's ways to get mana with the new items. It's different, but they didn't just remove mana regen without compensation and there will be time to tune e those passives to help mages. You should read the PBE post, they do talk about it. Lots of people in the boards keep talking like they only removed regen and nothing else, and not the context and other adjustments. Hell, the last guy I brought it up with completely ignored the mana portion, even after I pointed it out...

Hope they buff dorans rings regen, tho. The early game will be the hardest part imo.

Amelie9 votes

What's the point of more accessible CDR if you don't have the mana regen anymore...? Do they want us to run through our "increased" mana pool even faster? Does that help anything?

The Loveless1 votes

Mana regen never worked anyway and it's why Athenes has been a garbage item for so long. Spells costs lots of mana as you rank them up, and ults always costs at least 100 except in special cases like Karma and Nid. You would never recoup that lost mana (let's use 100 as an example) fast enough with mp5 because it would only regen single digits at a time.

More mana upfront (on top of cdr) means you can spam more on Ziggs, Liss, Swain, Malz, Cass, Lux, Heim, Fidd, etc. etc.

Leeerzeichen7 votes

I'm a bit worried about ap assassins, because not having enough damage just completely kills an assassin. The changes to abyssal and zhonyas are just horrifying to me, especially as Diana I usually have to rush those two items to be durable enough to survive a fight and now the I'm loosing 24% of my ap + 50% of my early magic pen + 30 longer CD for 10 mr + 20% CDR? Probably I'm just overreacting, but I feel like ap assassin are getting hit a lot harder by those changes than mages.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

just gunna have to forgo zhonyas for something like rylias or lich bane. needs the burst.

abyssal -> lich bane was what i used to do on diana and it worked well for me, i could drop a carry with resets, but i can see now it just isn't going to happen, so yeah i feel dianas pain.

maybe that ap damage on auto item will help fill the gap in damage thats lost, but its still another item....

when will riot see that people pick mages for a diverse damage team, and utility from skill shots, so the enemy doesn't go full armor and win late game. its not all about setting up for your ADC to come in and save the game. despite them building full hp/armor its still a bear of a job to take down a tank because mages aren't dealing tons of damages even though they're building full damage.

Leeerzeichen2 votes

There are game where you can't do anything but throwing 1 or 2 Qs into a team fight because you haven't finished your zhonyas yet and you're basically committing suicide if you decide to go in anyways (early group games).

Jasiwel2 votes

Abyssal's damage against champions hasn't really changed (-10 AP and fluctuation in the passive isn't that drastic) and Lichbane is still exceptional for the burst damage. Those two together will still feel really nice on Diana, at least.

However, Zhonyas losing AP will make a notably large negative difference for Diana/Akali given they lack real escapes, but will also be less likely to be bought on Fizz/Ekko who are historic abuse cases.

My point is that the changes will affect each AP assassin differently, but at this point in time I'm used to having to change my itemization or used to changes in the items I still use.

Frankly, the Hextech changes will make AP Assassins even stronger because the AP numbers are high enough with the utility+sustain they give. Imagine Fizz with Gunblade/Rocketbelt/Hextech###/Abyssal/Lichbane/PenBoots. That is absolutely frightening given everything involved. Ekko will become more atrocious. Akali...will become an utter abomination.

Blazing Tenshi1 votes

{quoted}

Abyssal's damage against champions hasn't really changed (-10 AP and fluctuation in the passive isn't that drastic) and Lichbane is still exceptional for the burst damage. Those two together will still feel really nice on Diana, at least.

However, Zhonyas losing AP will make a notably large negative difference for Diana/Akali given they lack real escapes, but will also be less likely to be bought on Fizz/Ekko who are historic abuse cases.

My point is that the changes will affect each AP assassin differently, but at this point in time I'm used to having to change my itemization or used to changes in the items I still use.

Frankly, the Hextech changes will make AP Assassins even stronger because the AP numbers are high enough with the utility+sustain they give. Imagine Fizz with Gunblade/Rocketbelt/Hextech###/Abyssal/Lichbane/PenBoots. That is absolutely frightening given everything involved. Ekko will become more atrocious. Akali...will become an utter abomination.

The hextech items share their cooldown.

EvilRabbitt1 votes

I was hyped, then I read that. Then I realized they just killed Akali. But kats fine.

Jasiwel1 votes

Shared doesn't mean they aren't viable in any way; It means they have choices they can't spam at once. Need to secure a kill instantly? Gunblade. Need to escape or chase? Rocketbelt. Need to slow targets? GLP.

The build overall gives 380 AP, 600 HP, 650 Mana, 7% MS, 30% CDR, 60 MR, 15 Flat MPen, 10-25 Passive MPen, and the Lichbane Proc. Tanky, good enough damage, and more options. That doesn't even mention the Omnivamp.

La Barbotte4 votes

make CDR cap at 60% to compensate lack of AP, i dont see how that could back fire Kappa

Shadragon8 votes

Why not just cap it at 100% like crit chance, then rework Liandry's Torment to give up to 30% crit chance based on your CDR :^)

La Barbotte2 votes

yeah that seems legit

Tychusfindlay9193 votes

Lol, If these changes go down and mages get nerfed even more, then they will truly regret opposing the D man legend mid

Darius

ArlanKels3 votes

The super tank meta will remain super tanky~

billxx1 votes

Plz no ROA change Kassadin doesn't need more nerfs.

INoble KnightI1 votes

ROA nerfed in AP

Profirix2 votes

RoA isnt going to be worth it. They cut way too much off of it to make it cost effective. I thought the point of RoA was to scale into a monster item after 10 min and allow a somewhat cost-effective item to have later rewards. Now it barely scales at all and really isn't worth the investment.

Nilok1 votes

At least for ROA, it sounded like it is suppose to grow into its original 10min self. No idea if it actually will when it hits PBE.

Profirix2 votes

They cut the mana growth 3/4 of its original.

Nilok3 votes

Missed that. Ya, don't get the reduction if the point is to have mana on AP mid items...

63536895_DEL1 votes

You don't seem to realize that the major MR items are getting nerfed along with the AP item update. Also with this update most AP item's will give 80 AP, and all the item's have other useful stats attached to them, and some will have really powerful active's to give you even more damage.

a build like athenes/morello, archangel staff, zhonyas, rab cap, sorc boots, ludens is set to only give 500~600AP with 30% CDR. (40, 120, 80, 120, 100) x 1.3 = 598 (WTB void staff....)

Honestly after all the AP item's are updated this would probably be a fairly shitty build considering what else you could have built. I imagine pretty much all mages will build at least 1 of the new hextech items. Most mage builds will look something like this

Sorc Boots, Morello, Rocket Belt, Zhonyas, Void Staff, Death Cap

(15(Runes) + 80 + 80 + 70 + 80 + 120) + 35% = 600.75

This assumes that they take lower AP items instead of ROA, Luden's, or Rylai's.

i sincerely hope mages get better scalings to compensate. for this severe loss in damage.

As for this, that's pretty much exactly what the active's on the new hextech item's are for. Rocket belt will have a 25% AP ratio on its active along with 100-250 base damage, and the GLP-07A will have a 20% ratio with 100-200 base damage.

I think you're looking at this all wrong, and I think these item changes will be a significant buff to mages, and again the major MR item are being nerfed.

Very Hard Engage5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Death LoL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RWQOx2B4,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-04-07T22:27:18.691+0000)

You don't seem to realize that the major MR items are getting nerfed along with the AP item update. Also with this update most AP item's will give 80 AP, and all the item's have other useful stats attached to them, and some will have really powerful active's to give you even more damage. (40, 120, 80, 120, 100) x 1.3 = 598 (WTB void staff....)

Honestly after all the AP item's are updated this would probably be a fairly shitty build considering what else you could have built. I imagine pretty much all mages will build at least 1 of the new hextech items. Most mage builds will look something like this

Sorc Boots, Morello, Rocket Belt, Zhonyas, Void Staff, Death Cap

(15(Runes) + 80 + 80 + 70 + 80 + 120) + 35% = 600.75

This assumes that they take lower AP items instead of ROA, Luden's, or Rylai's.

As for this, that's pretty much exactly what the active's on the new hextech item's are for. Rocket belt will have a 25% AP ratio on its active along with 100-250 base damage, and the GLP-07A will have a 20% ratio with 100-200 base damage.

I think you're looking at this all wrong, and I think these item changes will be a significant buff to mages, and again the major MR item are being nerfed.

at the end of the day, its less damage output than any ADC build out there. im getting at we need more than this in order to achieve a damage dealing mid lane build. as in look to a mage so you can have a diverse damage team, rather than a full blown AD team such that someone can actually hurt the enemy tank.

im fully aware my build isn't ideal, its average. and that average build isn't enough. a full AP build would be lich bane, rab cap, ludens, rylias/roa, 20% CDR item like morello. and then either sorc boots for the pen or lucidity for the CDR, where you want sorc boots against a 30MR squishy carry, and 10% CDR in all other situations.

those actives are negligible because you have to get close to use them, you dont want to do that.

i can imagine some synergy with rocket belt and lich bane, but not everyone builds lich bane and autos, some people like to poke, in which case they wont ever benefit from the new actives, they'll opt for RoA or rylias/liandries instead. in which case... they'll still sit on 750AP at the most. which isn't much getting back to the original problem of mages not being a source of damage for their team.

do you know why?

because mages have mostly poor scaling ratios, and DFG is gone to deal with pen.

i felt powerful back when i had DFG, rab cap, zhonyas, all 120 AP. and AA/seraphs too for my high mana costs/needs. void staff for good measure.

-10% DFG CDR, -50 AP on zhonyas + 10% CDR on zhonyas, +10AP on void staff, -20AP on any other fill large item, all increased costs.

those days are over.

RedZealot1 votes

Where can i find the original change thread? searched for it everywhere

The Loveless1 votes

Those hextech items are going to be in every build now. They give burst. Plus you can stack ludens with them I think.

DeathToEcchi1 votes

link to where people are getting this info from?

Umirinmahgains1 votes

{quoted}

they all have reduced AP for favorable utility stats like health, flat mana, sustain, or some new unique actives.

but my major concern is... more CDR... less AP, how exactly do you expect mages to kill people again?

CDR is great, but when you take 10, 20, or half of an items AP away what exactly do you expect us to have to kill people with? that means up to 3 rotations, or 2 rotations + an ult to kill some squishy. most of which are skill shots....

a build like athenes/morello, archangel staff, zhonyas, rab cap, sorc boots, ludens is set to only give 500~600AP with 30% CDR. (40, 120, 80, 120, 100) x 1.3 = 598 (WTB void staff....)

i sincerely hope mages get better scalings to compensate. for this severe loss in damage.

Your build is a bit off from what reality will likely be. For one, there is currently no listed change to Morello's damage. Don't believe me? Check the post. 2, only like 5 champs will build Athene's, which is intentional. Burst APs and seige mages are not supposed to get that item after the changes. Another point, now that Morello's and other items give flat mana, and Archangel staff is basically going to be core on every burst / seige mage, everyone is going to have around 2.5k mana pools or higher. Which means the item gives a lot more than 120 ap. Luden's probably won't ever be built. Because why the fuck would you when you can get a hexatech item that gives you a ton of burst damage that also scales with ap? Why would you buy that over Hextech GLP-07A, which gives 80 ap, 300 hp, 400 mana (which makes archangel even better) and gives a 100-200 (+20% ap) active? And soft cc. Even Gunblade is flat better than Luden's after the changes. 300 (+.30 ap) on AN INSTANT ACTIVE, and gives you a mere 20ap less than Luden's. Reaching 600-700 AP after the changes won't be any tougher than it is now. And on top of that you'll have plenty of room to get an active that gives you highly significant burst damage to assist you further. Another point is that the world of building Zhonyas every game as an ap is over. The item is supposed to be a more utility, niche build for specific circumstances and not just build this every game cuz' defense + offense. Morello's, Archangel, Hextech item, Void staff, deathcap/ abyssal / rylais (situational last item) is much more likely than any build containing Zhonyas 1st, 2nd or 3rd after the changes. If anything Zhonyas will be a late game only item that is bought when absolutely necessary. No more 1st, 2nd item rushing it unless the match up you're in forces you to get it early. Roa, Archangel, Hextech, is also likely to be very common.

I would have included Rocket belt in there, but I highly doubt it will make it to live. Hell, even Riot doubts it will make it to live.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

again, ranged mid laners will not benefit from those new item actives, they're simply too far away and rocketbelt will be niche escape, you wont ever see a xerath or ziggs going ham in with it. (they wont even buy other hextech items over a liandries just because of the damage it gives poke mages)

all of that extra mana, will be on par with the flat AP loss from traditional 100 AP items. 3% isn't as much as you think it is. they will not have extra AP. or extra damage in their kit.

they even said it would mostly benefit mid ranged mages, namely Ahri Cassiopeia Ekko Fizz Kassadin Lissandra

champs like Veigar Velkoz Ziggs Zyra Viktor Xerath Syndra Karthus (the ones in need, and are hurting right now) simply cant use any of them.

(personally vel koz is fine, doesn't need touching)

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