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Wanna know the truth about Lee Sin?

Adanim··7 votes·1,022 views

Lee Sin. A very mobile, tanky, Jack-of-all-Trades champion. On pencil and paper, he seems over powered. That, I think we can agree on. But in truth he is possibly one of the most balanced champions in the game.

Why would I say this? Am I on drugs? Am I a Lee Sin main?

I lost some of you because you think I'm wrong.

I am not a Lee Sin main, nor am I on drugs. I really think Lee Sin is a balanced champion. He has a low enough skill floor so that a decent player can do well with him, but a high enough skill ceiling that you have to be GREAT with him to truly make a significant impact to a game.

Again, I already lost some of you because you think I'm wrong.

The human brain keeps track of all the events that occurs in our lives, both positive and negative. Remembering these things is another story. However, it has been scientifically proven that the brain keeps track of more negative experiences and thoughts than it does positive. Humans are always looking to better themselves and fix problems, therefore we hold on to the negative to try and fix it.

It takes 3 positive experiences to balance out a negative one.

So, we all remember that Lee Sin that wrecked our whole team, the one that out jungled ours, the one that managed to penta with a single ult through the whole team. We always remember those Lee Sin's. But do we ever remember the one that's learning to play him? The one that may be an average Lee Sin? No, we don't, because we can't complain about him if, god forbid, he can be played poorly.

Also, ever thought that the PLAYER is the reason behind you getting destroyed? Every time someone does poorly on a champion, it's the players fault. But if someone does well, the champion they are playing is broken or overpowered or some other term that undermines that player's skill level. We do this with Lee Sin more than any other champion in this game.

He isn't overpowered. He isn't broken. He is a well-designed champion who has a player base who know how to make him effective. Start giving credit where it's due. It's the players, not the champion. I have seen plenty of average Lee Sins, including myself, to know that this is true.

28 Comments

Cale0173 votes

The way the human mind balances out experiences has nothing to do with a numbers game, and it's the numbers that make Lee Sin a problem.

When he has to build more than one damage item to keep up in terms of offense with every other jungler in the game while building tank after that while the rest are having to stack damage items to keep up, then he can be considered balanced. As it is he gets way too much for too little.

Yes, I remember the Lee Sins who do badly. But pointing out that a champion can do poorly has nothing to do with the champion, it has to do with the player behind them. I saw an Evelynn absolutely wreck face the other day, but she's not considered an incredibly viable pick. So if she was breaking the norm, as you're trying to argue poor Lee Sins are, is it because Evelynn is secretly a powerhouse? Or is it the much more likely answer that, much like a really bad Lee Sin, a really good Evelynn is based on the skill of the player, not the power of the champion.

The fact remains that it isn't Lee Sin's wardhopping over walls, which is in all honesty actually about the highest skillcap mechanic he has, it's the rest of his kit that's a problem. It's his ability to outduel pretty much anyone. It's the mixed damage that makes him impossible to itemize against. I'm sorry but landing his Q isn't hard. Q R Q is not a hard combo. In fact, none of his combos are hard, and they're on such low cooldowns that they encourage people to just spam them when in close proximity, and still do enough damage, while soaking up enough damage, to not need to worry about capitalizing on his passive between skill uses.

Yes, there is a marked difference between a truly skilled Lee Sin and the average Lee Sin. But unfortunately, the average Lee Sin still has access to a champion who gives a whole lot for a whole little just based on his numbers alone. He's Riot's favorite because he makes the flashy plays that they love to talk about, and none of them want to admit that he can assassinate harder than most assassins if he builds full damage, and he can do as much damage as someone playing as a fighter while being able to build almost straight tank. He needs to be reigned in. If he's supposed to take skill to play with, why is it that any idiot who can land a Q can get himself fed, and get his teammates fed off of assists?

Doesn't help much that most Lee Sins that you see wrecking on low level/elo players are usually just smurfs either. But smurfing gating other players' progress is an entirely different rant.

ImFlutterShy2 votes

WTF are you fucking serious? Stopped reading after "Lee Sin is balanced". Not even gonna waste my time on trying to explain how op he is. Diamond overlord here, no backtalk. (◡‿◡✿)

mack91122 votes

I agree with you , I myself am not a lee sin main but have gone against him plenty and would say he is balanced. I've always considered him the Swiss army knife of champions , a little good at everything. Is he overpowered? I think not , just some people would rather point a finger away than at themselves when something dosnt go there way. In this kind of game though it is impossible to please the community as a whole as there are so many different points of view from so many different kinds of People.

Cale0172 votes

{quoted}

I agree with you , I myself am not a lee sin main but have gone against him plenty and would say he is balanced. I've always considered him the Swiss army knife of champions , a little good at everything. Is he overpowered? I think not , just some people would rather point a finger away than at themselves when something dosnt go there way. In this kind of game though it is impossible to please the community as a whole as there are so many different points of view from so many different kinds of People.

He can be a "little" good at everything when his scalings aren't so massive.

mack91121 votes

his scalings may be on the high side but I don't think he is that much of a threat. Like every other champion you know all his abilities and what he is capable of use that to your advantage

Cale0171 votes

{quoted}

his scalings may be on the high side but I don't think he is that much of a threat. Like every other champion you know all his abilities and what he is capable of use that to your advantage

On the high side? He has, hands down, some of the HIGHEST scalings in the game short of a Veigar ult. I know how his abilities work. I can juke his Qs. I can force him to have to use his shield on himself to reduce damage. I can get him to drop his kick on me if he feels pressured so he loses the ability to use it for the next teamfight. But none of that matters when he can do so much that a person only needs to make ONE mistake for him to completely and utterly destroy them. There is no legitimate counter play options for him. If you're only options are

A) Stay away

B) Gang up on

Then there's a serious problem with that champion. It means he's got a binary playstyle where he's either getting fed or being useless, and those are the only two ways a Lee Sin plays out in a match. He's either super fed, which honestly he reaches the point of being problematic MUCH sooner than any other jungler and most other tops, or he's basically useless. You can't really try to flee from his ganks because he has the EASIEST turret dives in the game, which makes him an early game monster. People are complaining left and right about Rek'Sai's ganking potential but acting like Lee Sin's aren't basically a death omen because when he goes in, you don't come out. He has enough mobility options to make any CC short of a stun or a root completely useless, and even then it still probably won't save you. The hitbox on his Q is completely and utterly inaccurate, so he'll land a potshot Q on you, wait for you to get under your turret to finish the Q and pick up the execute before ward hopping out of range of the turret while shielding himself and just go on about his merry way.

He should not give as much reward for so little as he does. I know perfectly well what he is capable of, and that's why he's a problem. He has literally every mechanic a champion can use short of damage over time pre built into his kit. Two cap closing options, two forms of CC, an attack speed steroid, bonus lifesteal and spellvamp, high AD scalings, ranged harass, an execute, a magic damage nuke, and a shield.

If he took still to play then I'd feel better about him having that much. But as it stands, no matter what his skillcap may read as, Lee Sin is one of the easiest junglers to play as. You don't have to be making Insec level plays with him to completely and utterly dominate a game. Yes, there is a marked difference between a true Lee Sin master and the kind of Lee Sin you see overwhelming people at low elos, but that's only because of the skill gap between the two players, not because he has some sort of hidden potential.

Everything he has is right there, plain as day. There are no hidden mechanics. There are no advanced combos. Wardhopping, contrary to popular belief, is not a difficult thing to do. It's jump on someone and kill them in the early and mid game, and then fall off in the late game. But by that point he's put his own team so far ahead on objectives, kills, and assists that him falling off makes approximately zero difference.

The only way to use Lee Sin's kit against him is to get him to miss Qs. That's it. Because if he lands a Q in the early or mid game he's getting a kill. And from that one kill he's going to snowball unless you gang up on him and shut him down, which isn't legitimate counterplay. It's a champion having too much for too little.

When he doesn't keep up in damage off of one item when other fighters are having to build three to edge him out and he's had time to build a tank while they've done that so he can STILL outfight them, then he won't be an issue.

If he's such a high skillcap champion, then surely pulling back on his insane scalings and high base damage shouldn't be an issue for those high level players because if it isn't his scalings that are winning matches, but the use of his mechanics properly, then you could remove his scalings altogether and he'd still win matches single handedly.

Wardhopping does not win games. The ability to completely and utterly overwhelm one, or several, enemy champions at once while facerolling "OUTPLAYEDOUTPLAYEDOUTPLAYEDOUTPLAYEDOUTPLAYEDOUTPLAYEDOUTPLAYED" repeatedly is.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

I am not a Lee Sin main, nor am I on drugs. I really think Lee Sin is a balanced champion. He has a low enough skill floor so that a decent player can do well with him, but a high enough skill ceiling that you have to be GREAT with him to truly make a significant impact to a game.

a valid argument but is realy wrong design wise lee sin is rewarding you for getting better mechanic wise instead of getting better at the game (gaining elo)

so if you grind lee sin every day to learn the famous insec kick, with silvers player skill you might reach that gold because you are a good lee sin

and that is a problem

Cale0173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROOEnmEx,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-01-17T17:08:50.276+0000)

a valid argument but is realy wrong design wise lee sin is rewarding you for getting better mechanic wise instead of getting better at the game (gaining elo)

so if you grind lee sin every day to learn the famous insec kick, with silvers player skill you might reach that gold because you are a good lee sin

and that is a problem

I see what you're trying to say here, but people SHOULD be rewarded for getting better mechanically, as that's how you get better at the game. That's why Shyvana's have to learn how to AA reset for higher burst in a fight, or why ADCs have to learn to orbwalk. Both are mechanics that are necessary to perform well, and that someone who learns is rewarded for learning with better stats in a match because they were then playing better.

Getting better mechanically IS getting better at the game.

If someone is grinding him every day to master a certain skill, awesome! They're driven to do better with Lee Sin and if they're playing him that much I'd be surprised if they WEREN'T good with him, maybe even great. But his issue is not in his high level mechanics, it's in his low level risk/reward balance. His numbers are too high for someone who's forced into a tank role at the end of a match, and if he builds straight damage he's the best assassin in the game with both a shield, some serious CC, and mixed damage to boot. Being able to wardhop over a wall isn't what makes him overwhelming, his ability to run off of a Hydra and build two more tank items while another top/jungle would need two more damage items to beat him in terms of damage while he's running around outfighting everyone from a mass amount of damage AND having increased survivability.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

SHOULD be rewarded for getting better mechanically

and they are as the game stands the better they play the better they can use their champions

but when you speek about lee sin getting better mechanicaly can allow you to win despite your lack of owerall skill, you just know how to insec

getting better at the game means improving yuor OVERAL MECHANICS AND GAME KNOWLEDGE instead of being able to pull some sick combos for a single champion

thats what my point is lee sins skill floor is great thing, but fully mastered lee sin does more than any other fully mastered champion and thats a bad thing sinc it promotes mastering lee sins mechanics over mastering the game and overall champion controll

Cale0171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROOEnmEx,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-01-17T17:53:39.948+0000)

and they are as the game stands the better they play the better they can use their champions Agreed. This is how people show improvement.

but when you speek about lee sin getting better mechanicaly can allow you to win despite your lack of owerall skill, you just know how to insec

Getting better mechanically is DIRECTLY your skill level. So if you're good with a champion mechanically, your skill overall with them is high. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here but I don't think you're aware of how redundant you're being.

getting better at the game means improving yuor OVERAL MECHANICS AND GAME KNOWLEDGE instead of being able to pull some sick combos for a single champion

Which doesn't change that being able to pull said sick combos with said champion can very easily turn the tide of a match by getting yourself fed and your teammates fed alongside you.

thats what my point is lee sins skill floor is great thing, but fully mastered lee sin does more than any other fully mastered champion and thats a bad thing sinc it promotes mastering lee sins mechanics over mastering the game and overall champion controll

And everyone else here's point is that if he gives so much for someone who's mastered him, he shouldn't ALSO give so much to someone who hasn't. If someone has mastered him fully, they've mastered how to use all of the parts of his kit, not just his damage. So pulling back on his damage to make it so that the average facerolling Lee Sin doesn't have to put any effort in beyond landing a VERY easy, low cooldown skillshot shouldn't be an issue because the people who've mastered him will still be able to use him perfectly fine afterwards.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here but I don't think you're aware of how redundant you're being.

map awareness warding and such stuff is what i mean you can be medicore mechanicaly and still win many games just because you do the correct calls predict movements and make correct deciisions and this should matter more than just mechanical skill

Which doesn't change that being able to pull said sick combos with said champion can very easily turn the tide of a match by getting yourself fed and your teammates fed alongside you.

pulling off a play? yes its your earned succes

grinding a champ to learn that one play and being one trick pony? nope you sohuldnt be able to climb elo like that

And everyone else here's point is that if he gives so much for someone who's mastered him, he shouldn't ALSO give so much to someone who hasn't

which is a bad point because as i said it promotes grinding of one champ as an effective way of climbing elo instead of getting good at the game

and the point that you brag about all the time is that ppl should get rewarded for being good at a champion and they already are, but if they suck at everything else besides using that champion's skillset they wont climb elo just because they can grind one champ (and its a correct way)

Cale0171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROOEnmEx,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-17T19:00:37.870+0000)

map awareness warding and such stuff is what i mean

Yes, you're right. Those are mechanics that players have to be familiar with. But your original statement was that improving mechanics was somehow different from improving skill level when the two go hand in hand. Whatever context you implied it to be under, and are now backtracking to correct, doesn't change your original statement or devalue my response.

you can be medicore mechanicaly and still win many games just because you do the correct calls predict movements and make correct deciisions and this should matter more than just mechanical skill

If you're mediocre mechanically then you aren't going to make the correct calls, predict movements, or make correct decisions. Again, I'm left wondering if you're aware of the interaction between mechanics and skill level. You aren't going to do ANY of that if you lack the necessary mechanical practice to act on that information.

pulling off a play? yes its your earned succes

grinding a champ to learn that one play and being one trick pony? nope you sohuldnt be able to climb elo like that

Which is everyone's point about Lee Sin. The only issue being that you can learn him and instead of being just a one trick pony, he's got literally every trick in the book. Massive AD scalings. Magic damage AoE nuke. Execute. Two cap closing options. Two CC abilities. Ranged poke. Shield. Bonus lifesteal and spellvamp. Attack speed steroid.

You're still missing the point. Labelling Lee Sin as a one trick pony just shows how little you're actually understanding the issue here, because grinding Lee Sin gives a person access to too many tricks. Any other pony would be crushed under the weight. Once again, he gives too much for too little.

which is a bad point because as i said it promotes grinding of one champ as an effective way of climbing elo instead of getting good at the game

If a champion can be ground to the point where they're giving away freelo, it means the champion's playstyle is toxic and needs to be reigned in. Hence, Lee Sin. Not because he's a one trick pony, but because he's an all trick pony.

and the point that you brag about all the time is that ppl should get rewarded for being good at a champion

That's generally the point of the game. It's not what I'm bragging about, that's how the game works. Be good with champion = do good in game with said champion. Are you familiar with the concept of League of Legends?

and they already are, but if they suck at everything else besides using that champion's skillset they wont climb elo just because they can grind one champ (and its a correct way)

Which doesn't change that they shouldn't be able to use that one champ to do so much. Not only have you contradicted yourself (it's like you're arguing both for and against him at this point) but you're showing a complete and absolute lack of understanding of what makes Lee Sin an issue even though you've repeated it so many times in your own words: he can be used to ascend the ranks just on his own. And it isn't even because they've mastered him, either. You could put a Diamond Lee Sin main against a Gold Lee Sin main who has used nothing but Lee Sin to get to gold, and of the two of them the Diamond is going to win.

Why?

Because even though the Gold was grinding away with Lee Sin for the freelo he grants people who are trying to cheese their way up ranks, they still haven't mastered him. They're still going to be beaten. Which means that

and try to remember my original point here

Lee Sin gives too much at a high level for how much he also gives at a low level.

The Diamond in this case is very near, practically at for all intents and purposes in this example, the highest level of play one can reach in the game. They have a higher degree of mastery over Lee Sin, so they can make better plays. Better judgements, better mechanics, better yadda yadda. The Diamond player soundly proves that the Gold player does not know everything there is to know about Lee Sin, no matter how much he's been grinding him to get to Gold. So if the Gold player doesn't know everything that there is to know about him, he shouldn't have been able to spam him to climb the ranks.

But he does. And do you know why?

Because Lee Sin gives too much at low levels to give so much more at high levels.

Miku Lv992 votes

Thing is, how bad the bad players are with him should not be considered. If a champion is op at high level play, then that champion is op. Lee can be hard to play, yes, but if played perfectly, he's better than a lot of other champions could ever hope to be, no matter how good you are with them.

Rinky Dinky2 votes

That's why Lee Sin has dictated the jungle for 4 seasons...

He is better at any other jungler in every category.. this is fact..

Adanim1 votes

As a fellow Platinum player, I too am aware that most of the Lee Sin's we play against can feel pretty oppressive. However, the players at our level are able to fully take advantage of what he has to offer to turn the game into their own. But it's the players playing well, not Lee Sin on his own.

Talamare1 votes

{quoted}

As a fellow Platinum player, I too am aware that most of the Lee Sin's we play against can feel pretty oppressive. However, the players at our level are able to fully take advantage of what he has to offer to turn the game into their own. But it's the players playing well, not Lee Sin on his own.

If it really is all just player skill, then surely they would be able to do equally as well even if Lee Sin received some nerfs

RetroRage961 votes

Not equally. What if all of his base damages were reduced to 20/30/40/50 or something?

Cale0171 votes

{quoted}

As a fellow Platinum player, I too am aware that most of the Lee Sin's we play against can feel pretty oppressive. However, the players at our level are able to fully take advantage of what he has to offer to turn the game into their own. But it's the players playing well, not Lee Sin on his own.

Surely his insane scalings and ability to deal more damage than a fighter while building tank sooner than they can, or to build full damage and nuke people faster than a fed Zed can, has nothing at all to do with his ability to overwhelm people, right?

It's not his ability to wardhop over a wall that makes him a problem. That's what makes him fun. What makes Lee Sin a problem is how much he gets for how little he has to build.

Angry Monster1 votes

worse logic NA here.

As a fellow Platinum player, I too am aware that most of the Lee Sin's we play against can feel pretty oppressive. However, the players at our level are able to fully take advantage of what he has to offer to turn the game into their own. But it's the players playing well, not Lee Sin on his own.

Do other champions give this opportunity? If so i would like a list of junglers that do. Cause i am pretty sure there arent any others.

Adanim1 votes

But he doesn't need the nerfs in the first place. He is fine as is.

Talamare2 votes

{quoted}

But he doesn't need the nerfs in the first place. He is fine as is.

but, its your own logic

You said that it is not the champion that is overpowered, its purely player skill using his incredible amount of options that is winning. Thus a few damage reductions here and there would not really be a problem for the truly skilled Lee Sins.

Luner Hunter1 votes

fan boiz everywhere!

stealthfox941 votes

I literally have only seen 1 LeeSin that legit scared me most of the other ones I see are garbage.

Beerstein1 votes

I disagree mainly because I don't think he takes anywhere near as much skill as people say he does. People say he's balanced because you need ____ to master him. In reality getting decent isn't hard, mastering him is just a matter of a little time.

How many seasons have people had to master him? It really shouldn't take more than a week. In fact it usually takes me 2 nights of sleep before my brain becomes attuned to a champion and it becomes muscle memory.

Beerstein1 votes

TBH I don't think anyone above bronze 5 will have trouble playing him at a level above their peers with a little practice, and that's the issue isn't it? No other champion can put you ABOVE your peers with a little practice, they're supposed to put you on PAR with your peers with a bit of practice.

Nevermind that "I'm platinum we've all mastered him" (actually you haven't, at least not in a game sense), but you CAN master him in comparison to your peers, and even bronze 4s can do that.

Think I'm kidding have you and a friend grab a bronze 4 player, one of you teach yours Lee Sin, the other teach them Elise. You tell me which one climbs higher.

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