Any mages vs Ad Assassins mid should be a skill match up lane not an itemization lane...

taleofsonata·Nov 26, 2017·77 votes·3,717 views

Seriously, If an AD Assassin wants to win his lane he has to prove that he can outplay and kill you not just come back to lane with + Nullifying Orb.

132 Comments

EkyonKunNov 26, 201723 votes

My biggest issue with the item is that it's over 100% efficient in stats alone. It could spare to lose 5 AD. Then it'd still be an anti-burst item without being a 100% rush into any AP matchup no matter what.

PokladnicaZlaNov 26, 20172 votes

Well most items are above 100% efficiency,but it's still strong,myb stronger then it's supposed to be?

EkyonKunNov 26, 201713 votes

When we're talking about semi-completed items with actual passives/actives (As in, not just a stat you can buy like 10% CDR or life steal. Think item 3144 item 3076 item 3751 etc.), very few even reach 100%.

The rest RELY on their passive to be efficient. In fact, after counting all 26 component items with truly unique passives/actives, only 4 of them have 100% or more efficiency. Those 4 being item 3802 item 3155 item 2053 and SORT OF item 3028 . The only reason chalice is 'sort of' is because its own passive interacts with itself and necessarily gives itself its own cost efficiency.

So in terms of the 1000 gold range items with actual passives, hexdrinker being cost effective is kind of unusual. Especially with how powerful that passive is.

Gives No LuxNov 26, 20173 votes

Since you've got an Annie icon I'll let you in on a little secret. Predator boots pre 6, celerity, waterwalking. Then Lucidity, Luden's and Soulstealer.

Ever try to play bot lane when a 500 MS Annie keeps showing up every 90 seconds?

There is a reason that Riot nerfed the crap out of move speed back in Season 6. With those runes on Annie it's impossible to escape her when Predator is up if they are pushed to mid lane or further. Zed can buy 5 Ghostblades, you can still kill both bot laners before he even reaches dragon pit.

xMisutoNov 26, 201720 votes

mages dont have armor anymore and ad can just build that so ye ad will almost always win if they can play :) im honestly very concerned about this but noone ever brings it up i don't get it

PennsNov 26, 201716 votes

Thats why I dont understand why they buffed every AD champ by 10-40 base damage on their spells. You already only had 1 utility AP champ on most teams to not be full AD in season 7, AD was already way better than AP, no mid laners got armor in preseason,.. idk xd

PokladnicaZlaNov 26, 20177 votes

Not to mention for some reason all finished lethality items were increased from 18->20

ShaydroxNov 27, 20171 votes

This was because % damage masteries were lost, and funny enough while midlaners got no armour assassins were still doing less total damage to them (actually all squishy vs squishy matchups both dealt lower damage to each other). Still weird that they wouldn't buff a bunch of other base damages, the thing is mages atm aren't actually doing bad and some (Malz) are at the top of the foodchain, so it actually didn't change too much.

PokladnicaZlaNov 27, 20171 votes

That kinda doesn't make sense. I mean they lost %damage,but it's still there in the new rune system. There's still lethality,Mr pen, damage increase, thuderlords etc. Lethality shouldn't have been buffed IMO ,especially item 3147

EDIT: Mages lost AP from runes,but I don't their scaling being increased or AP on their items.

ShaydroxNov 27, 20171 votes

Yeah it's weird not everyone got the same buffs, but looking at the game right now I do not feel like mages are weaker/stronger than before, same actually goes to some assassins (not all though). Duskblade already was a problem, I would've cut that proc damage in half by now if I had any chance to do anything about it. The lethality makes combos in general do more damage, that's more healthy than a single proc taking 25% of your HP imo.

PokladnicaZlaNov 27, 20171 votes

AD assassin seems to be performing much better after the runes changes.Especially Zed and Kha.

Seviel VoroseNov 26, 201716 votes

Seeker's rush is nothing compared to Hexdrinker + Nullifying Orb, i agree. This item has been broken forever, but no one seems to care. They introduced Edge of Night because "Hexdrinker/Maw should be a bruiser item", -cit Riot.

They always fail, at everything.

TortungaNov 26, 201714 votes

I would be fine with an AD assassin having a lot more kill pressure then a mage in lane, if they couldn't poke and CS better then most mages in lane as well.

Especially Zed is frustrating to play against as you will lose your lane, unless you completely outplay them and they mess up big time. He can out poke you with just a shadow+Q combo, and last hit with ease with his passive.

For most champions to even have a somewhat pleasant laning phase they are pretty much 'forced' to buy Seeker's Armguard as their first item.

Squidward DabNov 26, 20174 votes

Yet ad assassins don’t understand rushing a seekers/zhonyas is fucking shit compared to morello’s. But of course they don’t understand considering rushing maw isn’t as bad cuz we all have shitty as armour

ShablagooNov 26, 20172 votes

Sorry which ad assassins, you mean just zed right, cuz no talon is cs better then ori, unless talon kills her.

PB4UAMENov 27, 20171 votes

Really? For some reason I find that very difficult to believe as Talon has 2 farming tools he can spam, and is designed to insta burst a wave at very low AD levels so he can go right on roaming and ganking.

ShaydroxNov 28, 20171 votes

"insta burst a wave at very low AD levels" yeah no........ his W only clears at max rank and with some AD. Most mages can easily clear with max rank abilities too.

TNHA BaritoneNov 27, 20171 votes

I agree. The worst part about rushing Seeker's is the lack of Mana.

Bronze 6 YasuoNov 26, 201710 votes

[deleted]

Dirty WeebNov 26, 201728 votes

yes you dont need to outplay because you have item 3155

Bronze 6 YasuoNov 26, 20173 votes

Nah. I don't even buy hexdrinker because the mage mains always feed me before 6 and throw their lanes and start raging at how op zed is.

Mage mains xd

Dirty WeebNov 26, 201722 votes

start going higher than bronze

Succubús GFNov 26, 20173 votes

[deleted]

Bronze 6 YasuoNov 26, 20173 votes

I never said I don't play zed. I said I don't main him.

Succubús GFNov 26, 20175 votes

So you go on every zed post ever to comment. Interesting

An Enemy SutandoNov 26, 20178 votes

Bronze 6 Yasuo is just generally a troll. Don't bother replying to anything he posts.

ThilmerNov 26, 201710 votes

item 3155 is so stupidly effective that it has needed a nerf for years. And instead of that, Riot introduced nullifying orb in the game.

Way to send a message to mages, you know... [slayer-jinx-unamused]

DengedenNov 26, 20174 votes

Meanwhile, in the real world, mages are crushing assassins.

Scary DoorNov 26, 201714 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile, in the real world, mages are crushing assassins.

Oh really? What world is that?

Ryze, Galio (who is basically intended to be played as a mage now), Cass, Syndra, LeBlanc, Viktor, Karthus, Annie, Aurellion Sol, Vlad, Twisted Fate, Lissandra, Azir and Ori all have lower win rates than Zed and Talon.

But yeah... you were saying? something about mages crushing assassins?

DaNinadNov 26, 20171 votes

what are you talking about twisted fate azir annie aurelion sol kathus are literally crushing win rates higher than zed. Talon on the other hand has a low play rate.

Scary DoorNov 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

what are you talking about twisted fate azir annie aurelion sol kathus are literally crushing win rates higher than zed. Talon on the other hand has a low play rate.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story, right?

https://i.imgur.com/VKrinWp.jpg

You were saying? Something about Twisted Fate, Azir, Annie, Aurelion Sol and Karthus crushing the win rate of Zed?

LemurKickNov 27, 20172 votes

The world where you don't ignore the stats on the other half of mages because you wanna cry about zed

Scary DoorNov 27, 20171 votes

I want you to show me where I was "crying about Zed" in my post.

I'll wait.

LemurKickNov 27, 20172 votes

When you cherry picked lower winrate mages to make Zed sound op.

Scary DoorNov 27, 20172 votes

Is it really cherry picking when the majority of mages have a lower winrate; when the exception lies above and not below.

I guess it's 'crying' to point out facts. Sounds to me like the one 'crying' here is you.

"Waaah you quoted the truth, that ruins my perfectly sound argument"

LemurKickNov 27, 20172 votes

There are 18 mages with a higher winrate than Zed, including several of the ones you mentioned as being lower, and 12 with a lower winrate. Certainly not a majority. I'm not sure where you're getting your "facts". Source: http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

Scary DoorNov 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

There are 18 mages with a higher winrate than Zed, including several of the ones you mentioned as being lower, and 12 with a lower winrate. Certainly not a majority. I'm not sure where you're getting your "facts". Source: http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

https://i.imgur.com/VKrinWp.jpg

Source: http://www.lolking.net

NineTailedMysticNov 26, 20171 votes

because Assassins have no utility and the Mage is always more useful no matter how far behind they are. Still doesn't justify it.

ShablagooNov 26, 20176 votes

Well it does because that means assassins are at a time limit, also in the teamfights a 1/6 ori will have more impact then a 6/0 zed because of the utility, you dont think a good ori ult and shield will impact the game more then a zed almost killing one target?

NineTailedMysticNov 27, 20171 votes

It's true. But Assassins are still cancer.

ShablagooNov 27, 20174 votes

Lol and i got downvoted anyway, sweet this is why their is no point in speaking sense in the borads cuz ppl dont listen to logic. Dw not u specifically you seem to get it and speak the truth. Assassins are cancer, they are designed to kill one person as fast as possible, if you are laning against them that is you how would it not be cancer.

NyarlathοtepNov 27, 20171 votes

To be fair. Sometimes you will fall so behind where you will be quite literally useless. Also not all mages have the shield and ulti of ori.

ShablagooNov 27, 20171 votes

Yes that is true, when we think of champions like vlad and ryze, they kind of fall into that category, maybe not ryze because he still offers a snare, but vlad specifically because he only offers a slow. But then that really doesnt have to do with assassins being op then though, mostly the skill level of the player no?

NyarlathοtepNov 28, 20171 votes

Actually both of them, vlad and ryze, have strong late game. Vlad gets really tanky and gains a lot of ap, and ryze becomes a monster late game. Even if they fall behind they can catch up. I was thinking more about mages like xerath, where their utility is a single unreliable hard cc. And unfortunately, i cant help it but fall behind if im against a zed/assassin that knows how to play.

ShablagooNov 28, 20171 votes

Tbh I dont see a problem with a xerath really falling behind if they are getting punished for missing skill shots. First off if you are against zed you got counter picked, honestly assassins in general they counter him with the mobility, his entire kit is a skillshot kit so you have to be hitting you skill shots in the first place. Also Xerath still provides a decent amount of cc and poke which regardless will still help the team. I understand that the e is single target but he still provides poke so he has something. Late game one good combo from xerath and or a few q's and the adc's or squishies will lose at least 50% of their hp from poke.

NyarlathοtepNov 28, 2017

Tbh I dont see a problem with a xerath really falling behind if they are getting punished for missing skill shots

You ve got it wrong. Xeraths dont fall behind because they miss their skillshots. They fall because they cant farm safely. AND NO, we cant always use our spells to farm because cds, mana and at the laning phase spells alone wont do. We fall behind because he can all in us whenever he wants and we can only stun him for .5 sec which is nothing.

First off if you are against zed you got counter picked, honestly assassins in general they counter him with the mobility, his entire kit is a skillshot kit so you have to be hitting you skill shots in the first place

No shit. Im not expecting to win against him. I expect when i play safe to not die. Which is almost impossible if the assassin knows what he is doing.

Also Xerath still provides a decent amount of cc

No? He has a single target hard cc and a minor slow that sometimes is a strong slow. Nothing else.

poke which regardless will still help the team

True but well how can i say it. 10 per q isnt gonna help that much. Now jokes asides when im behind my poke is non existent for obvious reasons. So yeah there is that.

I understand that the e is single target but he still provides poke so he has something

Late game one good combo from xerath and or a few q's and the adc's or squishies will lose at least 50% of their hp from poke.

Combo true. Poke? Not really. Unless they ( squishies ) are behind. But even then you have to reach late game, which against a good assassin it just wont happen.

ShablagooNov 29, 20171 votes

Which is why zed counters you I dont understand what you expect unless you are playing exceptionally you are not suppose to win, thats what counter means. You think zed is suppose to win against malz when he has his ult to completely shut him down, it works the same way for xerath.

Kinda skeptical with the idea of xerath not being able to farm safe consider the range of his q. But even in this regard how can you expect to not die and farm safe when almost everything in his kit counters you? You dont see how that doesnt really make sense. Also it isnt as if you are completely out of options considering that his w has a significantly longer cd then your harass. Pre 6 it really should be harass city for xerath.

Honestly cc and slows still help and poke is the major thing. Also his q doesnt do lots of dmg poke wise? 75% ap ratio? At max q with 400 ap thats a total of 640 dmg every 5 seconds I cant see how that isnt significant. Also I am purely talking about teamfights which I assume you would be targeting the adc with your q at this point

item 3157 item 3165 item 3285 item 3135 item 3020 item 3151 For the sake of the argument say this is Xeraths build against an a Draven lvl 18 and no bonus mr has 38.5 magic resist. Adding the pen thats 38.5 - 15.4 that void removes = 23.1 mr then - sorc boots 18 = 5.1 mr left. I'm not even gonna calculate how much that reduces but tbh at that point xerath is hitting true dmg, a few pokes from xeraths q does 640 at max lvl with 30 cdr from the build thats 640 dmg every 3.5 seconds man.

Add item 3139 because thats a normal mr item for adc's 38.5 +35 = 73.5 - 29.4 from void 44- 18 from sorc boots = 26.1 mr left probably now the dmg is like 512 dmg every 3.5 seconds from xeraths q at this point. You think that isnt significant poke?