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Xin is op, or Lee is up.

JhomasTefferson··3 votes·1,392 views

I'm not saying this just because he killed me. I'm saying this because he out dueled me at level 4 as XinZhao when i was LeeSin . In no world should that happen. Now, i would understand it was my failing if i missed q, or used q too early. But I didn't. I played it perfectly and I still died. He didn't have red. I did. we were both full health. And because it was in his jung my team called be bad of course.

But seriously. I went to his red to catch him, i took it, drank a pot, and was taking scut when i saw him in a ward. I go there. I q. I re q. He turns to me. I w. 2 aa's. I re w. 2 aa. I e. 2aa. i re e. 2 aa. i q. 2 aa, i smite him, then q, and he is still alive with just a little health, and me too. I know all his spells are on cc. 2 aa, he's still alive. how? I'm dead.

Xin should not be able to outduel a lee at level 4 who plays the engage perfectly. Lee is viable because of his early game. He is the early game jungler champ. Xin is a mid/ just before late game or lategame with devourer. How is it he out dueled me? He didn't have more items than me. He didn't skirmisher smite me, cuz he had spent it on chickens. I know i chugged 2 pots near the beginning of the fight, as the added regen has saved me once or twice. My runes aren't perfect right now, but they can be expensive, and i have a decent ad page at least. I know i need armor yellows, and mr blues, but i have some armor and mr from runes already. I run primarily ad reds, 2 are scaling, 1 is attack speed, and 1 is crit chance and 1 red is armor pen. I have a mix of mr and flat and scaling ap blues. And i have mr, health, and armor yellows. I think i have 2 ms quints and 1 attack speed quint. I had the right masteries, i run 21/9/0 ad based in offense. I didn't misplay, i had red and he didn't, he didn't smite me and i did, chilling smite. We were both at full and both had just upgraded our machete's.

This honestly should not happen. Lee is supposed to be an early game monster who ideally snowballs the early game for him or his team. Xin is supposed to be kinda snowbally and powerspike about midgame and stay strong until late late game. If level 4 halfway through the first clear is mid game, well, i guess I'm just stupid. But if it's not, then I'm right and Lee Sin needs a buff or Xin Zhao needs a nerf. They don't necessarily need to be big buffs or small buffs, just little ones that correct this issue.

So either Lee Sin is underpowered and needs a little bit of a stronger early game (and come on, no one is going to be ok with lee buffs besides me and his few mains, even though he is fairly weak at the moment, he's not as bad as Karth though), or Xin xhao needs a bit weaker of an early game (Which is more likely, and i'd say more appropriate, especially since he has a fairly strong late game when he goes devourer/ botrk - which honestly is kinda an op item combo to begin with, but that's for another thread)

I experienced this in a normal. It wasn't ranked match, so I'd like to think I'm looking at this with the best objectivity I can.

What do you guys think?

Also, most of my threads get down voted a lot. If you down vote this one, can you at least comment why?

59 Comments

Bruddah Mase6 votes

xin way the early game jungler long before lee. fucking lee mains bitching that their perfect champion loses in a duel trading autos with an autoattack duelist

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Im not bitching that i lost, and i didn't just trade autos. I dumped my full combo on him, and i had red buff. If it was at 6 i would have understood why, but at 4, i can not. And why should xin have a strong early mid and late game?

Death by Glamour6 votes

Xin is a duelist... he has a fairly strong early game himself. Im sorry but they are people who can out trade a lee in thise early lvls, karma being another

67chrome5 votes

I'm not saying this just because he killed me. I'm saying this because he out dueled me at level 4 as XinZhao when i was LeeSin . In no world should that happen.

He was using a spear and wearing some swanky armor while you, a shirtless blind man, hit him with your fists.

In every world that should happen.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Lol. winrar

Hayaishi24 votes

Xin is OP dueling, specially early game. Ever since they nerfed Lee's E AS debuff he can't duel xin anymore, you have to try and catch him low in his jungle.

JhomasTefferson2 votes

Really? You actually offered some insights into this dilemma no fellow commentor has. I never knew he was a strong early game duelist. I know he was a good duelist, but even still, i think a champ a lot of people call one of the best early game junglers in the game should be able to outduel him in the early game. Maybe not though, if he is an early game dullest.

But if what you say is true, if xin is a powerful early game duelist, then xin is definitely op. He is strong at all stages of the game then. I think of him as a good mid game snowball champ, and i know the devourer builds on him have good lategame. He has good early game too apparently? So when exactly would any champ ever be stronger than him? Besides of course, like jax, or other counters?

edit: You still didn't talk about how i had red and he didn't, and i also smited him for even more true damage on him.

Hayaishi21 votes

{quoted}

Really? You actually offered some insights into this dilemma no fellow commentor has. I never knew he was a strong early game duelist. I know he was a good duelist, but even still, i think a champ a lot of people call one of the best early game junglers in the game should be able to outduel him in the early game. Maybe not though, if he is an early game dullest.

But if what you say is true, if xin is a powerful early game duelist, then xin is definitely op. He is strong at all stages of the game then. I think of him as a good mid game snowball champ, and i know the devourer builds on him have good lategame. He has good early game too apparently? So when exactly would any champ ever be stronger than him? Besides of course, like jax, or other counters?

edit: You still didn't talk about how i had red and he didn't, and i also smited him for even more true damage on him.

Well dude he may need nerfs but the reason you lost it's because his early game damage against squishy champions like Lee is ALOT. Like his level 2/3 damage is one of the highest in the entire game.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

So is lee's lol. This is honestly the first time i've just been 1v1'd as lee early. That's why I'm so blown away. I've dunked on basically every other jungler 1v1ing them in their jung. Thats why i play lee. He can just roam into their jung at like levels 2-4 and kill them, even if they're full health. This is the first time I've found an early game jungler who is stronger than lee 1v1. And i've played lee a lot. Like, a whole lot. He was the first champ i got mastery on. I really didn't think anyone was stronger than him early, and i still believe that at 6 he can 1v1 anyone at 6 if he plays it right.

Sorry, Short version is i thought lee was the strongest early game jungler ever for the entire early game and he could kill/outplay and kill anyone early if he's played correctly.

That's why he's so hard to play, right?

Maximum Morde2 votes

Pfft, Xin rekts at all stages of the game as a duelist.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

But he shouldn't wreck someone who should be the strongest, or one of the strongest, early game junglers, with red buff, in a duel early game.

Colgate Gator2 votes

The amount of Bronze in OP's post is off the chart.

Simple answer, Xin Zhao excels at low level dueling due to his CC, regen and sustained damage, you'd have the same success trying to duel a Trundle in the same scenario.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Yeah, i know. The reason I lost is i never knew xin was strong early, and i overestimated lee's early game. I didn't misplay, or make a bad decision, given what i knew at the time. I think anyone would have made that decision and anyone would have been confused as i was at how the champ that had never failed them before had failed them now, if they were in my position.

Angry Monster2 votes

i think you are bad at the game and do not understand the game at all. You deserve your current placement.

JhomasTefferson2 votes

I think the ranked system is broken, and that i do not deserve my current rank. Also how do you know I am bad?

Angry Monster2 votes

I think the ranked system is broken,

you would. cause you are bad at the game.

people have already hit on xin as being stonger, in other comments. the fact that you do not understand xin as a champ shows how limited you are currently.

Xin has 2 AS steroids with an AD steroid. The first AS steroid is his w, the second is the Q which cuts in half his AA animation. Lee has nothing on xin in a straight up 1v1. The fact you made a post about being killed in a 1v1 is laughable. Lee normally gets his kills from jumping a weak target, xin can straight up 1v1 when both are at full health.

Ranked is not broken, you are just a joke. You got lucky last season and are at your true MMR, trash teir

LaserDeathBlade1 votes

Lmao Lee gets shat on by pretty much every dualist type champ

Part of the reason you actually need to be good at Lee

JhomasTefferson1 votes

I could understand that, but early game, when lee is supposed to be strong? And also, if you read the post, you would know that i didn't misplay. I was good. I didn't mess up anything. I even got the engage on him, and hit him with an extra ability than what he hit me with (i cast 2 q's) and i had red. And lee is supposed to be strong early game. And i can outduel champs like ahri, fizz, trundle, ekko, and a few others on lee, and ahri, ekko and fizz take skill to outplay and dodge their skill shots. so really, your comment is stupid. It literally offered nothing to the discussion.

LaserDeathBlade1 votes

Your mistake was to fight Xin in an obviously disadvantaged position which should be evident by your claims of playing everything perfectly and still dying

What's really stupid is playing Lee and just assuming you can destroy anybody. he's strong early but you still need to think.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

I wasn't disadvantaged, or at least "obviously disadvantaged". I though having red buff and chilling smite while he had neither skirmisher's smite nor red would be sufficient advantage. I was not obviously disadvantaged. I reported all of what happened in my post, as i was incredibly pissed by what happened so remembered it vividly. We were both at full health and had no cooldowns to worry about. I also got a favorable engage on him with q. The reason i lost was not that i was obviously disadvantaged, it was the second part of your post. My mistake was playing lee and thinking i could outduel anyone early game. I didn't misplay or go into a situation where I had an obvious disadvantage. I played it perfectly, i just thought i had an advantage( in lee's early game, red and smite) when i didn't, or when that advantage was not enough because in a duel xin is just stronger, which i didn't know at the time.

And i got your second part. I've discovered Voli since then also.

Lugg1 votes

Lee is definitely not UP. He is way OP. Xin just happens to be even more OP.

JhomasTefferson2 votes

Ok haha. That's actually my favorite explanation so far. And it makes sense.

Can we nerf xin pls? Rito?

Thanks lol

Lugg1 votes

I honestly thought Xin needed a nerf before Devourer. With it he is stupid OP.

Lee needed nerfs before they buffed his ult. The guy basically doesn't have a significant weakness anymore.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

I think Lee could be adjusted.

Seriously though, devourer is just kinda broken. Like, put it on any aa based champ with botrk and it's good.

Edit: Lee's weakness is hard cc.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Lee is strong due to his versatility; he has an advantage over many other junglers in mobility, burst damage, utility, and ganking. He's very good at picking fights on his own terms, engaging when he has an advantage and leaving the fight if it turns sour.

if you tried to straight-out fight Xin Zhao (just slugging it out with him), then you didn't take advantage of Lee Sin's lot and fought on Xin Zhao's terms.

Xin Zhao is a strong duelist at all stages of the game, but his damage is primarily single-target and he has no ranged abilities or escapes. It's not really a surprise that Lee Sin (a highly mobile champion whose kit lets him pick his fights) would lose to Xin Zhao in a death-match-style fight.

Runes would have been a huge part of it. Your AD rune page has 2 flat armor and 6 armor at 18, 3.8 flat AD and 4.9 AD at 18. In addition, it has a wide variety of stats in insignificant amounts. If Xin Zhao had a half-decent runepage (30% attack speed or 15 AD with 9 armor), he would have a massive advantage in a fight.

Fix your rune pages and it would be a massive advantage. There really isn't an excuse not to have two decent rune pages since Riot recently halved the price of the basic runes.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

See this is what i was looking for. The thread can stop now.

I always thought lee was just the strongest early game jungler ever period and could outplay and or kill any jungler 1v1 early on in the game, which is the reason he's hard to play, because if he wasn't, he'd be broken, and if he was but wasn't so strong, why play him? I thought that because experience taught me it. Whenever i dump my full combo on someone early on in their jungle, they die. This is literally the first time i have been outduelled on Lee when i didn't miss a skillshot and maximized my passive. The fact that it happened while i had red buff and after smiting him just made it worse. I was really confused how a champ that had never failed me before had, and the only option i could point to was lee being under powered or xin being over powered, and in need of retuning. And i don't say this having no experience on lee. I've played him a lot. He was the first champ i got mastery with, i've played him a lot. I've dunked on many different champs as lee, and xin was one of them. This just was mind blowing to me that he was stronger than lee at level 4.

That was most of it. The other part was that i didn't take advantage of lee's strengths. In situations like this, i've never had to. Usually you just maximize your passive and dump your combo and you'll beat anyone early game. I see now i could have just poked and chased and harassed with q until i could go in for the kill, and if he q or w'ed i could just ward hop away until it ran out. I think i actually could have won that now, it's just the first time i've had to try so hard on him at such an early level.

The problem is people make such generalizations, and you sorta never stop thinking about them. When you first ask about lee, people say "Lee is a very strong early game jungler, one of the best in the game, and if played correctly one of the strongest champs in the game, but he's also one of the hardest to play, and he falls off hard late game." and when you ask why they say "INSEC" and "damage mobility and utility" and that's it. When you first ask about xin, people say "He's a pretty good mid game jungler that can snowball really hard, but falls off a little bit late game, but he stays relevant." and that's all people say. That's sort of what i think about when i think of how i'll do against other champs. I also thought xin would need attack speed and stuff to be relevant, whereas lee has some good base stats and damage just based off his skills.

Also thank you for the rune page thing. I had no idea they could impact it that much. Like, no one ever explains that. They just say runes do good stuff and you should get good rune pages. "They" say such general and vague shit all the time. "They" should be more descriptive.

They just went on sale, and I'm poor, but i started saving up for flat ad's, flat ap's, flat armors and flat mr's when the sale started. I also had no idea they could make that much of a difference. I thought runes gave a very very minor boost, and that masteries were minor, but slightly less minor. I didn't think they made such a difference. Thanks for the tip

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

You might find this to be a good read: http://team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/No%20Category/4830/Why-Runes-Are-Important

This is a bit long, but it may help you understand runes better: Runes and Masteries for 2015 and Beyond by Phreak.

Runes are extremely important early game because they provide a significant amount of stats before you have the opportunity to purchase items. Even a base page can be quite valuable:

  • Flat Armor Seals = 9 Armor = 180G
  • Flat MR Glyphs = 12 MR = 216G
  • Attack Damage Quints AND Marks = 15AD = 540G

Thats 936G worth of stats before you even enter the game. Attack speed is even more cost-efficient than AD since 30% attack speed (quints and marks) are worth 900G and they are commonly used on autoattack-reliant junglers (like Master Yi, Xin Zhao, and Nocturne).

If you want a simple example, consider Lee Sin.

At level 1, you have 61 AD, 24 armor, 30 MR. The basic rune-page outlined about will essentially give you an additional 25% AD, 40% armor, and 40% MR over your base stats at level 1.

The AD runes and resistances will also improve your ability to fight enemy champions. +15AD will give you an additional 13.5 damage on each portion of your Q and 15 damage on your E, which is 42 damage on your combo at level 2 (which is noticeable when people have 600-700 health). And this is ignoring the +15 damage on your autoattacks. Resistances reduce the damage you take from enemy champions, providing more survivability.

The additional AD will improve your damage and let you clear faster (and works well with the additional attack speed on your passive). The extra armor will reduce the damage you take from jungle camps while clearing them. Combined, these will let you clear faster and with significantly more health at the end, allowing you more opportunities to gank, counter-jungle, or faster farming. You can then use this to build a gold and experience lead over your opponent, giving you even more stats over them and helping out your allies.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Ok. Thanks a lot. I never knew runes were that important. People just sort of say "Yeah, runes, they're good shit. They give you stats that are good, get them." They don't really say why what or how.

Thanks a lot. A lot of people on here are generally unhelpful, and just say "git gud lol". People like you, who actually help other players, are usually few and far between. Thank you again.

Uiraya1 votes

If Lee and Xin both got hit by a truck and left in a ditch the game would be better overall.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

I say that about riven, vayne and blitzcrank

MegaManYYZ1 votes

it's probably because you're not very good at the game...

JhomasTefferson1 votes

No, it's that i didn't know xin was such a strong early duelist. As i said, i played it well with lee, didn't miss a skillshot, went in thinking red and smite would be enough advantage. Read posts and then you can make less ignorant ones yourself.

MegaManYYZ1 votes

or i can look at your op.gg and see that you are not very good at the game...

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Yes, cuz na.op.gg can tell you how good i am. It can tell you all the times i do great in lane, roam to give my teammates kills and help then out, and that then the rest of my team feeds my opponent to the point that when they come back to lane they delete me without pause. Then they also tell you how they fed everyone else on the enemy team too to the point that they either ignore my damage or delete me completely without a chance for outplay besides simply being in range. They can also tell you that i've been on a ten game loss streak due to my teammates. in ranked, and that recently i haven't played any champ that i'm familiar with in normals as I'm trying to learn new champs, which certainly could hurt those numbers. It can tell you all of that can't you?

yes. Keep looking at na.op.gg. It will tell you who's good and who isn't. We are going to talk about the game while you keep concerning yourself with stats that really don't concern this post. I didn't bring up anything that wasn't on the game or on this site. Why did you have to? To use stats to prove a point that you're not even proving

You sound like the stupid type of %%%%% to tell me when i complain about elo hell that I need to get good, then when i ask how you know that I'm not good, you say cuz I'm bronze. You don't use logic. Now, get your ignorant, unable to read ass off the boards. I didn't ask you, nor did anyone here, to read my na.op.gg. I asked you to read my post. 2 times as a matter of fact. Are you too stupid to comprehend that i asked you? Because it seems clear that you can read. Maybe it's that you think just telling me I'm a bad player makes you right because you're "allegedly" better than me according to rank, which has a busted system. Well, guess what, retard: It doesn't. Now, you can construct an argument not based on my statistical performance, which is sort of irrelevant to the situation anyway, or, you can, as i said before, fuck off to wherever it is you're from and stay there.

MegaManYYZ1 votes

tl;dr

JhomasTefferson1 votes

exactly

JustJayson1 votes

lol i have out dueled a lee with fiddle sticks at lv2. Met him at scuttle after i did gromp and blue, he must have done krugs red then went to scuttle. So amusing when you use E on lee and it bounces of him and the scuttle back and forth several times while draining.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Yeah, i'd just never been beaten early with lee before. Like, thats why i played lee, cuz i thought he was just dominant at level two. And against most junglers he is. I only recently discovered i was wrong, and i could see how fiddle would beat him.

NemeBro1 votes

Link the match history.

And Xin Zhao isn't just a strong early game duelist. He is, arguably, the strongest early game duelist.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Yeah, thats my problem, i didn't know that, and thought that having red and smite would make it an easy kill.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Xin can kill any other champion early and late as long the other doesn't try to kite him or isn't super ahead.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Xin can kill any other champion early and late as long the other doesn't try to kite him or isn't super ahead.

Pretty sure Nasus, Jax, Tryndamere, Master Yi, Fiora, Darius, and Poppy would beast on Xin Zhao in a 1v1 late game to be honest.

JhomasTefferson1 votes

This is my problem, i had no idea he was so strong early. I knew lee was, i just didn't know xin was also.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

This is my problem, i had no idea he was so strong early. I knew lee was, i just didn't know xin was also.

Lee Sin's advantage early isn't just in dueling. He's very good at catching people out (if you're getting low from taking red buff Lee can easily execute you with his Q). This is just harder on Xin because Xin tends to have good health while clearing, due to his health sustain from his W.

Lee is also a far more versatile ganker than Xin. Xin ganks in one way: walks into lane, E's into the enemy laner, presses W and Q to knock them up. Low counterplay, but it's the only thing he can do without flash.

Lee Sin can ward hop into your lane from your own jungle, E/E them for a slow, Q them, and then execute them if they are low.

That said, tbh Xin Zhao probably is better in Solo Q than Lee Sin is IMO.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

Pretty sure Nasus, Jax, Tryndamere, Master Yi, Fiora, Darius, and Poppy would beast on Xin Zhao in a 1v1 late game to be honest.

Depending on the builds... but Nasus will probably kill him; Trynda can't die and Xin has to flash away; Yi can get 1shotted, but it's probably close fight - Xin has the same amount AS steroid as Yi's R on his W + more AS per lvl; Fiora can probably kill him, if she block the third Q and isn't oneshotted by a crit before that; Darius can die lvl 1, but later Xin has no chance aside from Sated or Crit build to fight Darius; Poppy... she oneshots anyone with Q, right? Jax goes in helicopter mode and is probably gg. I thought that Riven kills him easily later and especially if he goes full AD, but after seeing how Box Box got rekt one game vs full Crit Xin on Youtube, I think that XIn kills her easily. Irelia has 2.5 stun and if she has enough dmg, he is dead. AD Olaf or Trundle / WW can't be 1v1 ed.

But there is no reason to build AD on Xin, because he gets kited and is not very good in teamfights except for the R.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Depending on the builds... but Nasus will probably kill him; Trynda can't die and Xin has to flash away; Yi can get 1shotted, but it's probably close fight - Xin has the same amount AS steroid as Yi's R on his W + more AS per lvl; Fiora can probably kill him, if she block the third Q and isn't oneshotted by a crit before that; Darius can die lvl 1, but later Xin has no chance aside from Sated or Crit build to fight Darius; Poppy... she oneshots anyone with Q, right? Jax goes in helicopter mode and is probably gg. I thought that Riven kills him easily later and especially if he goes full AD, but after seeing how Box Box got rekt one game vs full Crit Xin on Youtube, I think that XIn kills her easily. Irelia has 2.5 stun and if she has enough dmg, he is dead. AD Olaf or Trundle / WW can't be 1v1 ed.

But there is no reason to build AD on Xin, because he gets kited and is not very good in teamfights except for the R.

Wait, were you talking theoretical full AD Xin Zhao? I have no idea how strong he is in a 1v1 vacuum (like you implied, he would be shit in team fights built like that because he'd get blown up). I thought we were talking about your average bruiser Xin Zhao.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Xin Zhao was designed to be an early game duelist, so if you guys don't have items yet, or are thus far building the exact same, he should always beat you. Since thus was level 4 I'm assuming both of you at best had boots and upgraded smite but no progress towards jg enchant.

Xin Zhao is only a mid to late game when he builds for sated. He can actually go warrior into triforce and then he becomes an early to mid game champ

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Yeah. I didn't know that. Usually you only see a lategame build. I had no idea he was so strong early.

Light deus1 votes

ofc, xin zhao is great for 1 v 1, he has a heal, an knockup, a as steroid and 15% armor reduction on enemys :/

Fitz n The Fool1 votes

Sated Xin + BotRK + IE + PD + Any tanky item is godlike and can outduel just about anyone except Nasus or Jax.

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