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@Xypherous No wonder healthy melee champion design is hard. Look at how many champions have a slow:

Critkeeper··24 votes·7,710 views
  1. [✔]Aatrox,
  2. [✔]Akali,
  3. [✔]Anivia,
  4. [✔]Ashe
  5. [✔]Braum,
  6. [✔]Caitlyn,
  7. [✔]Cassiopeia,
  8. [✔]Cho'Gath,
  9. [✔]Darius,
  10. [✔]Diana,
  11. [✔]Draven,
  12. [✔]Dr. Mundo,
  13. [✔]Ekko,
  14. [✔]Evelynn,
  15. [✔]Fizz,
  16. [✔]Galio,
  17. [✔]Gangplank,
  18. [✔]Gnar,
  19. [✔]Gragas,
  20. [✔]Graves
  21. [✔]Heimerdinger
  22. [✔]Irelia,
  23. [✔]Janna,
  24. [✔]Jarvan IV,
  25. [✔]Jayce,
  26. [✔]Jinx,
  27. [✔]Karma,
  28. [✔]Karthus,
  29. [✔]Kassadin,
  30. [✔]Kayle,
  31. [✔]Kha'Zix,
  32. [✔]Kog'Maw,
  33. [✔]LeBlanc,
  34. [✔]Lee Sin,
  35. [✔]Leona,
  36. [✔]Lissandra,
  37. [✔]Lulu,
  38. [✔]Lux,
  39. [✔]Malphite,
  40. [✔]Maokai,
  41. [✔]Miss Fortune,
  42. [✔]Morgana,
  43. [✔]Nami,
  44. [✔]Nasus,
  45. [✔]Nautilus,
  46. [✔]Nunu,
  47. [✔]Olaf,
  48. [✔]Orianna,
  49. [✔]Quinn,
  50. [✔]Rammus,
  51. [✔]Reksai,
  52. [✔]Rengar,
  53. [✔]Rumble,
  54. [✔]Sejuani,
  55. [✔]Shaco,
  56. [✔]Singed,
  57. [✔]Skarner,
  58. [✔]Sona,
  59. [✔]Soraka,
  60. [✔]Swain,
  61. [✔]Syndra,
  62. [✔]Talon,
  63. [✔]Teemo,
  64. [✔]Thresh,
  65. [✔]Tristana,
  66. [✔]Trundle,
  67. [✔]Tryndamere,
  68. [✔]Twisted Fate,
  69. [✔]Twitch,
  70. [✔]Urgot,
  71. [✔]Varus,
  72. [✔]Vel'Koz,
  73. [✔]Viktor,
  74. [✔]Vladimir,
  75. [✔]Volibear,
  76. [✔]Xerath,
  77. [✔]Xin Zhao,
  78. [✔]Yorick,
  79. [✔]Zac,
  80. [✔]Zed,
  81. [✔]Ziggs,
  82. [✔]Zilean,
  83. [✔]Zyra.

##Questions:

  • Do all these champions need a slow to communicate their identity and unique playstyle?

  • Isn't a large number of the slows on the above champions just glue to hold together clunky kits that would otherwise undergo further refinement-- in other words some of the slows are there to make those individual champions "feel better"?

  • Isn't the "feel" of a champion rooted in a subjective comparison to the state of other champions, so that if most champions have a slow of some kind then a champion can't feel very "good" without one or without something equally powerful and flexible?

  • Why not design more of those "equally powerful and flexible" things specific to individual champions and differentiate different champions in that way rather than clot the space uniformly with slows?

  • Moreover, what does that liberty do to the climate of the game in the context of melee champion design?

  • Isn't the job of making a healthy melee champion that can function in that climate while offering compelling gameplay despite being permaslowed almost impossible?

  • If removing a significant number of the slows is out of the question for logistical reasons, then how about reworking the way slows stack? Instead of having the largest active slow stacking with 35% of the remaining slows multiplicatively (the way it is now) have it so that only the largest active slow is applied.

69 Comments

Anarchomagus12 votes

slows offer a nice middle ground between 'you can't do shit because you're stunned/feared/rooted' and 'you walk away from me when i try to kill you'. see, in a game that offers you more ways to get away from stuff than any other moba (smaller map, summoner spells), champions absolutely need ways to control the movement of other champions. full disables do the trick, but feel like shit for the receiving end because they effectively tell a player that 'hey, you can't play for X seconds'. getting stunlocked sucks.

enter the slow; a form of CC that says 'you cant catch/escape me!' without saying 'haha i landed one skill now you're gonna die'.

now i know that at this point alot of people will scream 'MOBILITY CREEP' and its kindof a thing; but keep in mind that Kassadin was released into 2009 and he's still shitting on everyone else's mobility to this day. it's not as bad as you think.

no, the real culprit here is the ubiquitous summoner 4 and its somewhat neglected sibling summoner 6. in a game where every single champion, from the omnipresence level Kassadin to the basically growing roots level Mordekaiser can get away from almost anything, everybody needs to be suitably armed, whether your tool is running really fastShyvana, having obscene range Xerath, slowing like a champNunu, or maybe all of the aboveGnar. that, ladies and gentlemen, is why every champion and their mother and maybe melee creeps can/should have a slow.

the other option is giving everyone gapclosers. then the screams will echo forever.

ploki1225 votes

I'm siding with this guy. Slow is a required part of fun for LoL. What I think the true problems are is either the omnipresent slows (Ashe/Nunu/Zilean) or the slows that are flat out too potent (Lulu/Nunu). Of course, I do agree that some slows are pretty awkwardly placed (Xerath/Vel'Koz/Teemo/Kassadin), but I prefer awkward slows over stat boosts or snares/silences or even shields.

I don't agree however that slow is the counter to ghost/flash, in fact, I see mobility as the counter to slow. I feel that Nunu/Zilean would be by far the best champions if there weren't so many gap closers. I agree with some champions having spammable slows like Nunu or Ashe (which should have a cost of opportunity that isn't just a skill slot otherwise it's a lose-lose). But I consider champions like Lulu aberrations personally (and Zilean, but that's only because of the potency*duration, making it 3-4s would be enough to not big as big of a deal).

RiotGhostcrawler12 votes

I think this is a great discussion. While I have my own opinions, I'm interested in seeing more thoughts from you guys.

  • Have we given out so many slows that it dilutes champion diversity?
  • Should ranged champs with slows be super rare in order to give melee a chance to close?
  • Do champs just need a slow these days to keep up with the status quo?
  • Are there champs for which you feel that the slow is so iconic that we shouldn't dare touch it?

As with most of the forum discussions that I jump into, I am more interested in how the game should be in an ideal sense than which champion gave you a hard time in a game last night.

MrSc0tty17 votes

Honestly, in some cases yes slows are redundant.

For instance: Lulu's slow on enemy cast whimsy is redundant Maokais slow on sapling is IMO unnecessary Gragas' atkspd slow on barrel was fine it just needed particles, the new slow reduces Counterplay Quinn's slow on vault in human form is somewhat unnecessary, just add power into some other part of her kit

Good slows: slows that are the move and the point of the move.

Ex: Voli roar, singed slow, Janna Zephyr, Zac stretchy arm power attack, Viktor field, MF make it rain or Kog ooze

Bad slows: slows that are extra and seemingly just there to reduce Counterplay.

Ex: why does Talon slow you with take when he silences you already? Why does fizz have an extra slow on the shark? Why does Jinx's Zap slow when it's already an enormous nuke and she also has access to an AOE root? I feel like many slows are just added to make a skill "feel" like it has an immediate effect beyond damage.

Also, the slow on ranged autos from red buff could be removed and the game would be a lot healthier.

Garlyle Wilds8 votes

Re: The Lulu slow specifically

This was discussed when she was released. Apparently, without the slow, players were complaining that Whimsy was making their enemies faster - because it looks like they do, due to the fact a smaller model moving at the same speed as a larger one will appear to be faster. The slow was, to attempt to quote, "the smallest acceptable slow that could cause it to not feel like Whimsy was speeding your opponent up".

It's a unique case however. Just dropping some trivia.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Mao's slow on the Sapling is there to make up for his range decrease in Twisted Advance. However, that change was intended for Jungle Maokai, and now benefits top Mao a lot more, as an AoE slow (especially 50%) is quite a bit more disruptive in a teamfight scenario. Could it be removed? Possibly.

How does the new slow of Gragas reduce counterplay? Don't get hit by the barrel = not slowed? Although I can imagine it being shifted a lot more toward the ramp-up.

For Quinn, I tend to agree - human form doesn't really need the slow to be successful. Valor, on the other hand, really appreciates it to hunt down targets even more.

Other examples for Bad slows, in my eyes:

  • Xin's Audacious Charge: The move is, first and foremost, a gapcloser. So why does it need to slow, too?
  • Vladimir's pool
  • Vel'Koz: Why does he need a spammable slow on Q? Especially a 70% non-decaying one...
  • Mini-Gnar: Similar to Vel'Koz. Why does Q need a slow when he already has that enormous speed boost on his W? Especially since E slows, too.
  • Tristana: Does she really need the slow effect on her main repositioning tool?
  • Jayce: Same as Xin.
  • Draven
  • Darius: Can't fight, can't run syndrome. Either Crippling Strike's AS or MS slow should go.
  • Caitlyn: The slow fits the thematic aspect of the net. But what is the net's main use in reality?
  • Akali and Graves: Both smokescreens have a thematically appropriate effect of slowing...
MrSc0tty1 votes

Gragas has a dash+stun and a delayed %HP trade-winning chunk skill. THe counterplay for the chunk is the delay, he either telegraphs a trade or gives you an escape window.

However, if he slows you, that escape window goes away unless you now also have a dash. Do you think Jax, who has this exact same mechanic on counterstrike+Leap with the same available counterplay would be healthy if he had even a slight slow on Empower? He would be able to close, counterstrike, slow with empower, get the full effect of Counterstrike and the stun if his opponent was immobile.

Kitsuki053 votes

Vlad without a slow on his pool would kinda make the skill useless... It already takes a chunk out of his health and removes his non-flash escape. If you're using W to hard engage, you want people to have to suffer in it, not just walk away and laugh as you just dealt more damage to yourself than the entire enemy team.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I don't a gree with bad sad slows, having skills with nothing but damage feels pretty bad unless the damage is pretty massive compared to the cd or how hard it is to land.

Also, having entire kits without any form of cc feels bad(i played a fair share of diffrent mobas and encountered alot kits with no cc). It kinda makes u feel impotent as u can't realy make plays or setup things for ur team. The only way to feel impacrfull without cc is having high mobillity and/or ungodly amounts of damage. those kits also lead to a very binary experience as u either are ahead and thus have the needed damage to feel impactfull, or u are behind and feel completly useless.

The problem isn't the amount of champs that have a slow, the problem is the the powerlevel of those slows.

Ex: It's fine that jinx W got a slow, but does it realy need to scale up to 70%?

Another big problem is that those champs that suffer the most from slow lack mechanics that help against slows, like reducing the effecktivness of slows for some duration, or removing slows upon aktivating on some of their skills

And Talon with his current kit he realy needs the slow:

  • it's his only disengage besides the high cd ult that also serves as main nuke
  • if not far ahead, he needs to follow up with AAs on his target after the combo, but he got no speed buff and his gapcloser got huge cd, so without the slow he wouldn't work porbably as an assasin unless somehow getting fed
  • his passive grants bonus aa damage vs movment-impared targets, so without slow his passive would be totally pointless
  • He already is one of the most extreme 'feast or femine' champs in the game, takeing away the last bit of utillity would increase this bad habit even more
Arc Noir3 votes

I think this is a great discussion. While I have my own opinions, I'm interested in seeing more thoughts from you guys.

  • Have we given out so many slows that it dilutes champion diversity?
  • Should ranged champs with slows be super rare in order to give melee a chance to close?
  • Do champs just need a slow these days to keep up with the status quo?
  • Are there champs for which you feel that the slow is so iconic that we shouldn't dare touch it?

As with most of the forum discussions that I jump into, I am more interested in how the game should be in an ideal sense than which champion gave you a hard time in a game last night.

Allow me to give you some very brief answers, if that's okay.

1: Yes 2: It would be a good idea. 3: It's become the standard, anyone without it is a bad champion at this point. 4: Anyone who has slows randomly attached to their skills where they don't need it.

Chilroy2 votes

67% of champions have a slow, excluding others you have other movement de-buffs in their kits. Still, most these slows have unique identities and have different ratios, so the solution may include culling some of these champions to have other de-buffs, there are alternatives. Items such as Mikael's crucible, Mercurial Scimitar, and Locket of the Iron Solari offer lots of counterplay to CC of any kind - along with Champions like Lucian, Thresh, and others - with appropriate team work, slows are nothing to fear.

Many slows on the list only last a mere second, can be easily dodged, or counterplayed. I am not going to say some of these slows aren't borderline abusive coughBraumcough, but strategies and evolving builds are necessary to playing against them and showing them what for!

Concerning the Melee Champion going against a Ranged Champ, the outcome should always be in favor of the Ranged on open ground, but ambushes are needed against them and in comes Assassins like Zed, Nidalee, Kat, or Jax who can melt faces like a Heavy Metal Concert. Giving Bruisers in the future, buffs to combat slows without becoming psychotic Olafs would be pretty cool.

Not all champions need slows to be status quo, Example 1 - Lucian, this guy is basically owns botlane with his invunerability to being ganked due to his high mobility; Example 2 - Malzahar, with his silence he can escape anyone without ever applying a slow; Example 3 - Jax, and need I explain?; Pantheon, and his oppressive map coverage. So, maybe the real culprit here is the high amounts of CC with in the game, all which can be undone with proper cooperation.

Only champions like Sejuani, Ashe, Lissandra, Braum, Kass, and Caitlyn have iconic slows that probably at most could be reworked, but not removed, but all of these Champions are pretty balanced. Still, the solution isn't to remove these debuffs, but provide more solutions that make champs think twice before slowing someone.

Lady Luck7 votes

Regarding ranged champions and the iconic aspect of slows: I think there are a lot of slows that are unnecessary. I feel ranged champions don't necessarily need a slow unless that's a key use of their kit or it's easy to avoid. Some champions often may use the slow aspect of a skill as an added bonus. Like Caitlyn's net. I'm pretty sure the majority of people use it to move around primarily. The slow makes sense thematically, but gameplay-wise is likely unnecessary. (Maybe make it just do damage to keep the mechanics.) Tristana's jump has a similar issue. The other issue is the large amount of ground targeted slows. Ziggs, Lux, Graves and Gragas all have slows that either have another purpose (blind) or can be controlled for damage.

I think in most cases the slows have a clear intent with the game play - Supports need the utility (Sona), some kits utilize the slow as a key aspect of the kit (Ashe), some compensate for the need to be in your face (Liss) and some have no hard cc or a good escape mechanism and need something to keep up with all the characters that have these (Miss Fortune).

I also feel that thematically, Freljord champions should retain their slows. It sets their region apart and they're a relatively small portion of characters. Plus, I feel like all of their slows have the intent of being a slow - not as an extra feature.

Basically... I feel like a number the slows in the game are almost unnecessary. They're often used more as a happy bonus to the actual use of the skill. (Not that they're never used for the slow - but the majority of the cases are not.)

cocacolalips4 votes

That is where shooter games are so ahead of the curve, they got it right long time ago.

1- Crowd control mechanics feel terrible. 2- Point & click mechanics feel just as bad.

If you want a plan for 2015, I would suggest to look at those 2.

Shrikesnest1 votes

I agree on both counts. How much fun and interesting gameplay is there in getting chained-stunned and burned down? I've been playing the tank in games where I might as well have taken my hands off the keyboard after the initiate because the CC paradigm is that a coordinated team should be able to essentially take a player out of the match for the entire relevant part of any team fight, and that's just boring for everyone.

I would also be really happy to see every enemy-affecting point-and-click spell in the game become a skill shot. Like, really happy. Skillshots are just more interesting gameplay no matter how you look at them.

cocacolalips3 votes

Tbh, at this stade of the game, both mechanics are here to stay I'm afraid.

1- crowd control, as bad as it is, makes fights and confrontations happen, they would have to come with something else 2- auto attacks are point & click elements, they would have to re-invent the whole targeting mechanism.

I simply believe there is a middle ground between the abomination we have now, and the fluid and refined gameplay you find in more fast paced games, and LoL is not there yet.

Cutting down as much as possible on all this crap would be a step in the right direction.

Lady Luck9 votes

I disagree.

That Ashe ult coming out of the fog and stunning me, while it sucks, gives an element of excitement. I'll often be smiling after getting hit, even if I die. Anticipating CC and avoiding it is a fun aspect to me. The "oh shit!" of Rammus spinning towards you and needing to shove minions between him and you due to the risk of a mini stun followed by a taunt creates an enjoyable tension. Being able to peel those bursty assassins for your ADC creates a sense of accomplishment. If you're taking out CC because it feels bad to be unable to fight - take out the assassins that can 100-0 people. I prefer stuns and hard CCs to bursty assassins. CC mitigation has individual counterplay, bursty assassins usually require reliance on the team to peel. Also, if a big CC misses or was used at a bad time, you know that part of a kit is missing and you potentially have an advantage. (Say Sona missed her ult in an attempt to engage.)

I really like LOL's CC. In general the skills don't lock you down for very long, nor can they be spammed. And they create a point in time to play around.

As for point and click mechanics... I think that has to be a champion by champion and skill by skill issue. Going back to Rammus... I don't know how they'd make his taunt into a skill shot, but his kit almost completely revolves around it. It also has counterplay with the time leading up to him getting in your face. Taric's stun on the other hand... feels awful as a point and click. Miss Fortune's Double Up works well as a point and click because you're often anticipating the movement of the second part of the skill. (Double Up is one of my favorite skills in the game.)

cocacolalips1 votes

Ya, 3- would be 3- burst. A fight that lasts one second is not a fight, it's a slaughter. I didn't write it down, because, eventually, you have maybe 5 assassins in the entire game, where in comparaison you have 90% of the champion pool with crowd control.

For rammus, it's easy, instead of clicking someone, you simply press a direction and press E, if there is a target in range it's taunted, if not, it goes on cooldown. Same for auto attacks, and everything else. It's the difference between an ability that never misses and always hits its target no matter what, and a skillshot/projectile. Now between all the minions, the players, and the really really small models, that could be difficult to play around. They could start with stupid sh!t like taric & sion's stuns instead for example.

MyAccountYouGuys2 votes

Auto attacks not a point and click? Even Smite gives these a little lock-on, and you still gotta aim those. As long as LoL is played from a top-down perspective, that can't work. Too big of a change.

Everything else? Could work quite well, just needs to be tested.

HigeR2 votes

yeah if you think about it there are some adc that don't need such slows on their kit, namely Varus, Draven, Twitch and Quinn or they're just too easy to apply, for example Draven will start fights with his and proceed to chop your face off with Q's, you HAVE to fight want it or not and on top of that he has a global ult so it's not like you gonna run anywhere.

the opposite is true for ADCs like MF, Jinx and Cait, their slows serve a purpose and/or require skill to utilize completely, you don't initiate with cait's net, Jinx' is easily dodgeable and MF needs such a slow to make her ult more deadly plus her AA range is pretty low.

TheKaymon2 votes

*Have we given out so many slows that it dilutes champion diversity?

I'm not sure it has diluted the diversity. They are quite common, but I think that there is a decent variety in application/duration/strength.

  • Should ranged champs with slows be super rare in order to give melee a chance to close?

Perhaps slows should generally be attached to skillshot-like abilities for ranged characters. It feels like melee closing has more to do with dashes and hard CC than slows, though.

  • Do champs just need a slow these days to keep up with the status quo?

I think most champions require some form of CC, and slows are the probably the lowest impact and most prevalent form of CC.

  • Are there champs for which you feel that the slow is so iconic that we shouldn't dare touch it?

Probably the frost champions, especially Ashe and Anivia.

P.S. Ghostcrawler, your icon should totally be Crabgot

Daen8 votes

Personally, one of my biggest issues is that flash kind of invalidates a lot of potential design choices and forces homogenization. If every champion has a gap closer, you can't really design a champion to be crazy strong in certain immobile scenarios with the tradeoff of lack of movement. Yes, it has a crazy cooldown, but it still allows a player to temporarily ignore positioning and movement constraints.

I feel like this is such an ingrained thing that it's impossible to change, but it's just how I feel about it.

/soapbox. Anyway, your questions.

Have we given out so many slows that it dilutes champion diversity?

Potentially. This is sort of a hidden power kind of problem, because slows affect things so much more than it might seem at face value.

Should ranged champs with slows be super rare in order to give melee a chance to close?

Yes. Personally, I feel like melee champions should have just as many tools to close as carries have to...uh...open? I think Ashe's slow is great, as it's basically her way to kite opponents and allow her to keep her distance. She has no mobility, but she has crowd control to compensate. The problem arises when you have a champion with range, mobility, crowd control, and disengage all in the same kit.

Do champs just need a slow these days to keep up with the status quo?

If they do, they shouldn't. Slows should be a design choice, not a design requirement. I don't think champions need a slow to keep up, however. Riven is a great example here; she has two forms of very limited crowd control and no slows, but is still melee and relevant.

Are there champs for which you feel that the slow is so iconic that we shouldn't dare touch it?

[✔]Anivia, [✔]Ashe [✔]Caitlyn [✔]Cassiopeia, [✔]Dr. Mundo, [✔]Galio, [✔]Gragas, [✔]Irelia, [✔]Janna, [✔]Jarvan IV, [✔]Karthus, [✔]Kassadin, [✔]Kayle, [✔]Kog'Maw, [✔]LeBlanc, [✔]Lee Sin, [✔]Leona, [✔]Lissandra, [✔]Lux, [✔]Malphite, [✔]Miss Fortune, [✔]Morgana, [✔]Nami, [✔]Nautilus, [✔]Nunu, [✔]Olaf, [✔]Orianna, [✔]Quinn, [✔]Rumble, [✔]Sejuani, [✔]Shaco, [✔]Singed, [✔]Skarner, [✔]Swain, [✔]Syndra, [✔]Thresh, [✔]Trundle, [✔]Tryndamere, [✔]Twisted Fate, [✔]Twitch, [✔]Urgot, [✔]Varus, [✔]Vel'Koz, [✔]Viktor, [✔]Volibear, [✔]Xerath, [✔]Zac, [✔]Ziggs, [✔]Zilean,

I feel that slows are very important on these champions. I also think the slows that Nasus and Teemo have are directly negative in the game, as opposed to being comparatively minor.

Garlyle Wilds5 votes

Can I actually posit a related theory here?

A lot of melee itemization that is intended to counteract slows has been designed under the assumption that the gap is already closed. Phage, Furor boots, Frozen Mallet, Iceborn Gauntlet - all of these effects only matter if the gap has already been closed so they can begin applying. Now of course, without these, it's even easier to disengage and start kiting, but these don't actually assist melee characters in entering the frey to begin with.

I hope the issue's been illustrated, I'm too tired to actually have a good solution at the moment.

ShadowGlaive2131 votes

Are we properly differentiating slows from cc? I don't think champs need a slow to keep up with the status quo since cc is much more valuable. With all the gap closers around slows are fairly ineffective imo. In champ select I don't see players count how many slows the other team has, I see them count how much cc they have. I think Ashe's slow is iconic for her and shouldn't ever leave her.

ShadowKnight12242 votes
  1. Yes. There's a difference between buying Frozen Mallet/Iceborn Gauntlet/Crystal Scepter and having a champion with a slow from early levels.
  2. Ehhhhh. Most melee champs have a gap-closer, so this doesn't actually matter.
  3. Trick question. If there weren't so many slows in the first place, would there be a status quo in the first place?
  4. Freljord champs, Nasus, Zilean, Olaf, Malphite, Zac, Viktor, Talon, Nautilus, Miss Fortune, Teemo, Twisted Fate, Janna, Karma, Karthus, Singed.
Critkeeper6 votes

I think this is a great discussion. While I have my own opinions, I'm interested in seeing more thoughts from you guys.

After you parse our opinions, do you mind sharing yours with us? I'm interested in understanding your point of view and how it contrasts with mine. As a software engineer (aspiring to be an indie game developer) I have to roll my own game design for the dinky sprite shootem ups that I make and I don't have time to study both proper game design and programming concurrently, so I'm hoping I can extrapolate something general from your ideas and reasoning and perhaps learn something!

Telosa4 votes

  1. yes, over 2 thirds of the champion pool have slows in order to cover up the sloppiness of their kits. Slows are immensely powerful tools and most champions should not have easy access to them. There should be a CONSCIOUS trade off for slows (or at least some degree of difficulty required in applying it) in every champion's kit. For example, Champions like Akali or Tristana, who have access to some of the highest damage output out of any league champion shouldn't have access to slows, for example. However, utility-based Champions balanced around their slows like Ashe are fine.

  2. Yes and no. Ranged champions should have LIMITED access to slows, and only if their kits are balanced around them. Ashe and Jinx, for example, are examples of BALANCED access to slows/CC. Ashe has the easiest access to slows out of any ranged champion, but in her case she's balanced around the fact she has to make a CONSCIOUS decision to give up damage output in order to provide utility to her team. Jinx has access to a slow and a snare, but both of her CC require heavy preparation time and her opponent is given advance warning to get out of the way.

By contrast? Champions like Tristana and Caitlyn should NOT have access to slows. Caitlyn is a sniper (which means you should be able to PUNISH her when you get in close to her), and her E already gives her enormous safety, so she shouldn't be able to slow her opponent after using her jump. In addition, seeing as how Tristana should be using her jump primarily as a repositioning tool and she already has one of the best peeling abilities in the game, Tristana's W should not slow champions.

  1. Yes, most champions require access to a slow because almost EVERY champion has a slow now, and most kits are too clunky to properly to function without one. Ideally, slows should be much more rare than they are now.

  2. Ashe's Q, Lulu's Q, Nautilus's W, Singed W, Zac's W, etc. If a champion is based around utility, then they should keep their slows. If a champion has high damage output, then they should either have trouble applying their slow (like Jinx, which I think is a good example of how to give high-damage ADCs some form of CC) or they shouldn't have one in the first place (like Tristana, Akali, etc).

ThaddeusMike1 votes

I feel like this ties in to a discussion you were a part of a couple weeks ago about mobility ...

I do think there are too many slows. I've gone back and forth on how I feel about this since S1 though. On the one hand, a lot of slows don't feel like they add much gameplay most of the time. However, they can add to certain situation that happen a few times every game, the best example I can think of being ganks. Since I love tank junglers I would be just fine with most champions having less cc in general to make tank cc stand out more, but removing cc leads to very different chase and gank scenarios. I do think there is something of a homogenization problem. There are some champions who would function just fine without the slow, but would maybe become much more feast-or-famine. I think Lux would be just fine if you removed the slow and compensated her somehow. Her laning patterns would shift somewhat, but you would still have the safety, long range burst, and waveclear preserving at least a good portion of her identity. How you compensate in a healthy way is a harder question. Too much damage with that range might be unhealthy, although there are stronger long range mages in the game now so maybe there's room (although, we can't make her too similar to, say, Xerath). She does have other utility that could be buffed, so maybe look there? Syndra is another example where the slow isn't really necessary to her core gameplay, but in both these cases the slow can set up the harder cc. I think I'm in favor of removing that paradigm from mages, but maybe I'm wrong there.

Ranged champion slows should be if not super rare, treated as much larger aspects of the champion than they frequently are. How many slows are part of an otherwise fine ability? Other people have mentioned graves and teemo as examples of slows that are attached to abilities that function just fine without the slow.

I don't think champs need a slow, but it is easy to find room for in a kit and adds a lever for balancing. Yasuo is a pretty recent champ with no slow (and a s a melee champ no less) and he certainly isn't underpowered. Of course, he has hard cc, a unique utility move, a rapidly reusable (although conditional) dash, and is manaless.

There are slows that shouldn't be removed, but ones that shouldn't be removed because they are too iconic? Ashe A lot of ice-based champions (Nunu, Liss, Sejuani, Anivia), but Ashe gets special mention due to her age and unique place among champions at her role.

Pyrobob41 votes
  • Have we given out so many slows that it dilutes champion diversity?
  • Should ranged champs with slows be super rare in order to give melee a chance to close?
  • Do champs just need a slow these days to keep up with the status quo?
  • Are there champs for which you feel that the slow is so iconic that we shouldn't dare touch it?

  • I'd say so. These days its almost to the point where if a champion doesn't have a slow, it feels like something is missing. As if, for some reason, having a slow is a requirement for the champion or particular ability to feel good. We need to find other ways to go about doing this, rather than just indiscriminately tacking on a slow.

  • Not necessarily, and certainly not for that specific reason. I think it depends on the kit of the ranged champ more than it does the kits of any other champ. Ranged champions without a dash pretty much have to have CC. Conversely, ranged champs that do have a dash probably don't need a slow as well.

  • This is kind of related to the first question and my answer to it. Basically, yes. Here's an interesting factoid on the subject; 24 of the 30 champions released in the last three years have a slow. 9 of the 11 champs released in the last two years have a slow. And all 3 of this years champs have a slow. Make of that what you will, but I see a trend.

  • We shouldn't think about it so simply. "Iconic" doesn't translate to "healthy". Teemo, for example, has an infamously unhealthy slow. What you really need to ask (more to yourselves than us) is: "Does this champion have a reason to have a slow?" Are there other ways to make the champion/ability feel good? Does it fit thematically?

Phoneixflare10 votes

Wow. I didnt realize it was that many. Jeesus.

Tsunday4 votes

If we want to be honest there's also the Rylai's Crystal Scepter and Frozen Mallet. Any champion can have a slow if they want it.

Personally I feel the worst offender of mega-kiting due to movement speed differences is actually Sivir. Frozen Mallet + Furor + Passive means she hits you and then doubles her distance from you with a single AA.

MyAccountYouGuys2 votes

Which is why she has one of, if not the shortest range on AAs out of any ADC.

Thunder Dreamss2 votes

She's tied with Lucian for lowest. Speaking of people that can be nearly uncatchable...

YouLostMe4 votes

Yes, slows really help give champions identities.

No, large numbers of slows are not designed to glue together clunky bits. That doesn't even make sense.

Yes, the feel of a champion is subjective. But what you seem to be dancing around is not giving as many champions slows, and that sounds like an even worse idea.

Give an example of utility that isn't super strong CC and also isn't slows.

The ability to inflict slows makes it harder for melee champions to engage without gap-closers, as it always has.

"Being permaslowed" makes you sound like you don't understand how LoL to played. There is no way you should be permaslowed, even in half your fights. It would be impossible to make healthy champions in a game where permaslows always exist, but since they don't Riot doesn't have that problem.

Why on earth do you want to stop slow stacking? That doesn't even fix the problem at all.

ploki1224 votes

Give an example of utility that isn't super strong CC and also isn't slows.

Shields, damage boost, resistance boost, speed boost, stealth, slowing/accelerating projectiles, redirecting projectiles, delaying damage, resistance shred.

Of course, not all of them can be applied as-is, tack a shield on Lulu's glitterlance, and she's useless since she shields for the damage she deals. However, make Glitterlance deal magic damage on-being-hit for X seconds and you have someone with more utility that isn'T a super potent slow.

Make Xerath's Thunderbolt (I have no clue what the actual name is) charge the target, making him carry an MR shred aura for a small time, and you now have more damage, without making use of yet another slow who's only purpose is to make sure you land your other spells.

Make Teemo's shrooms deal a small bit of "Sunfire" instead of a slow, and he won't be as stupidly powerful around objectives, while also having better teamfighting power.

Zed's Shadow Slash could very well blind for 1 attack or 2 seconds.

Hitting someone that went through Karthus' Wall of Pain could lifesteal a portion of the damage intoa shield for 2-3s.

Hitting Karma's Inner Flame could simply leave a kind of dewdrop but firey that heals you when picked up (then you can tack something better/less awkward on W).

YouLostMe5 votes

Shields are already ubiquitous, use of Resistance boost as utility has to be niche, Speed boosts have the same problem slows do, Stealth is super niche and already gets flak for being toxic, slowing/accelerating projectiles is a weak utility if one at all, redirecting projectiles has to be niche, delaying damage is not a real utility, and resistance shred is pretty weak as utility and also considered toxic.

The suggested changes to champions either hurt their identity, make them more homogenized, or make them toxic. Removing Lulu's/Karma's/Karthus's skill shot slow almost completely stops them from being able to catch people out, which is key to their identities. If you take the slow off Xerath's thunderbolt (I don't know the name either) it loses its use as a snipe initiate and becomes just a boring ranged nuke. Adding more damage to teemo or any close-combat power to Zed makes them more obnoxiously snowbally than they are.

Slows aren't just fine for design, they're also necessary. Karma is a failure of a support if she doesn't have her ranged slow. Karthus would be so freaking terrible if his initiation ability was turned into a defensive ability.

ploki1225 votes

Let's break this bit by bit.

Shields are already ubiquitous

80 champions have slow, wanna bet that there are less than 80 having shields? Otherwise, yes, there are a few click-to-shield abilities, which is where you have the right to add play/counter-play. There are a lot of heals, but I've never seen anyone complain about Shen's heal. Why? Because it's gated behind gameplay (well, and it's not enormous, but it's still a decent chunk, especiaally for a manaless heal).

Speed boosts have the same problem slows do

So you're telling me that slows are everywhere (since this is the topic)? Or did you mean that too much speed is the same as too much slow? In that case I'll have to go ahead and disagree, Once someone is too mobile, the game becomes extremely hectic around him, but too much speed never made the game perfectly unplayable for 1 person. Too much slows (perma 80-90%+ slow) will do that. with the right set of champions, you can probably keep a whole team at 100-150 movement speed, and that means they cannot do anythign except eat your skillshots.

Stealth is super niche and already gets flak for being toxic,

I used the broad term "stealth", I guess I should've said vision-based utility. Graves' Smokescreen is an example, or Nocturne's Ultimate. A spell could very well make you stealthed for 1 second to champions you just hit. No one would consider that toxic.

slowing/accelerating projectiles is a weak utility if one at all

At this point, it feels like you're trying to discredit the ideas but lacking idea. Of course it's an utility, since it helps you fight without being power. And honestly, if you had something like an Amumu ult that stops projectile for 1-2s, I'm fairly confident that it would turn games around since it allows for easy jukes. One of the reason slow is nice is because skillshots become not-so-skillshots. Similarly, if you say that all projectiles around a target or travelling toward a target are accelerated, all skillshots are easier to land which gives you one of the benefits of the slow, but without the "I can't move" part.

delaying damage is not a real utility

How is it not a real utility? I can't see a single case where delaying (and possible reducing through one mean or another) damage is negative. You'll have to give me your definition of utility at this point, because for me, this kind of effect fits perfectly the definition of utility and is actually helpful and entertaining. Heck, I don't I barely see any cases where delaying the damage is negative (and the cases I see are pretty farfetched and can be worked around).

resistance shred is pretty weak as utility and also considered toxic.

By whose standards? I've never heard of shred/penetration as being neither weak nor toxic... Heck, it's actually blatantly overpowered, and the more you put in-game, the worse defenses get.

use of Resistance boost as utility has to be niche, redirecting projectiles has to be niche and Stealth is super niche and already gets flak for being toxic,

Resistance boost is on every single items, and at least half the champion have it in one form or another, I don't consider that exactly niche. Similarly, off the top of my head, I can probably see 5+ different ways of "redirecting projectiles" that means I could easily fit it into 8-10 different kits...

Otherrwise, I don't see why being niche is bad. This post is exactly about the opposite. Slow has become the "one size fits all" utility, and we're trying to find alternatives. Of course not all of them are gonna fit on everyone, and that's perfect otherwise you'd have slow 2.0. When talking about utility//abilities, I always see niche as a good thing.

Rest is gonna be in another reply since I'm hitting character limit.

YouLostMe2 votes

You appear to be confused as to what utility is, so let me help you: Utility is anything that contributes in a fight other than tankiness or damage. Putting a resistance boost on yourself is tanking power, but putting it on someone else is utility. Shredding the resistances of whoever you happen to be attacking is more on the side of damage, but shredding the resistances of whoever your carry attacks is utility.

**Shields: **Woah woah woah, there are tons of different forms of gameplay in slows alone, which I already mentioned in the post you just replied to. You can't just say all slows are bad and need to be removed, but shields are totes OK because there are different forms of them. Also, replacing something ubiquitous with something else ubiquitous will also cause other problems. Replacing slows with shields just cause you can is lazier design than adding good slows in the first place.

Speed boosts: Remember that this is a thread about slows being bad for melee, and not slows being bad for skill shots. If you are in this thread, you come to the table to talk about slows being bad for melee, because that is the thread title and subject. Now speed boosts do identical things for melee's health that slows do, because the whole point is that melee can't get in range. Slows and Speed boosts both make kiting easier, and thus melee QOL goes down.

Stealth: Stealth is different from vision-denial, which is one of those abilities that is supposed to be rare (like projectile-blocking). But yes, 1 second of stealth against a target you just hit is totally toxic, and it's toxic in a crazy way. Counterplay.

Speeding/Slowing Projectiles: Yes, there is a very very limited scenario where you can slow projectile that isn't already guaranteed to hit a CC'd target and isn't currently pathed to miss anyways and happens to be in the area and isn't auto-hit or you're paired with braum/yasuo (and their blocking spell is up). But that is so incredibly niche that it might come up once in an entire game, which makes it a weak utility. Speeding up projectiles is even less useful, because it messes with allied timings.

Delaying Damage: That was a bad explanation on my part -- let me explain this a little better. If you put a delayed damage effect on a target, it's sort of like giving them damage immunity for the delay duration and then hitting them afterwards. This sort of short-term invulnerability is so powerful (channelers and squishy divers get to use abilities fore free) that it needs to be harshly gated. For the delayed damage to be a utility other than a tanking power, it needs to be placed on an ally. If a delayed damage effect is placed on an ally, that means you can put it on squishy divers and channelers for extreme power, which is probably too strong to be considered usable at all. Thus, any legitimate use of delaying damage will be a personal buff and will be a tanking power instead of a utility.

Shred: "Weak from a game-balance perspective" =/= "Weak as a utility". Resistance shred is not a great utility ability because it's very strong and thus needs strong gating (much like delayed damage). Ex: Wukong and Jarvan use their armor shred as a way to win extended trades, not to seriously benefit other AD members of their team. For shred to be used as a utility, it needs to not be designed for personal use, which is probably too strong to be considered usable at all.

Resistance shred is toxic because it is mostly invisible power. You might see a broken shield or little red bands under your character, but the amount of armor shredded and the effects that has are not visible until you start taking damage, at which point it's already too late to communicate the information.

YouLostMe2 votes

Resistances: Items of course do not count, because they provide personal stats. Abilities like Olaf's passive do not count, because they provide personal stats. Actual forms of utility are like Soraka's passive and Braum's passive, and those effects are niche to stop resistance-stacking.

Redirecting Projectiles: I think you don't understand how niche abilities fit in the game.

Is Niche Bad? Niche is not bad, but it means you can't replace more than 1-2 slows with niche abilities, and maybe none at all. A vision-denying team is a team that loses a serious amount of counter play. If nocturne's ult could be followed up by 2 more vision denials, it would make the game suck for enemies to take part in. Thus, suggesting things like resistance boosts or projectile redirection will give you, at most, probably 2 slows to get rid of, but more likely 1 or 0.

ploki1225 votes

The suggested changes to champions either hurt their identity, make them more homogenized, or make them toxic.

I'm sorry, but I'll have to call a massive bullshit on that. I actually had worse examples since I took care to use champions whose character/identity did not relate to slows at all. The only one I could really se slow being a thematic linked to slows is Karthus, being a dead and all (but then again a wall of pain doesn't scream slow, it screams damage). A sentient being of lightning does not equate slow in my mind, a kind of savant seeking balance does not equate slow, a little guerilla warfare yordle does not equate slow, a kind of psychedelic peter-pan syndrome fae could equate slow but clearly not that much.

Similarly, I don't see how removing a slow and putting something else instead homogenizes them. We've just laid out that 80 champions have a slow out of 11X, if that's not homogeneity, I don't know what is.

As for toxic, of course they'd probably do something else better if they do one thing worse. I'm confident not all of the examples were good, but to call the champions toxic, I really think you'd need more than that.

Slows aren't just fine for design, they're also necessary. Karma is a failure of a support if she doesn't have her ranged slow. Karthus would be so freaking terrible if his initiation ability was turned into a defensive ability.

Actually, replace Karma's slow with a heal and you have the new #1 support. As for Karthus, I'm not sure where you're pulling that out from but every single bit of additional defense you give to Karthus makes him a little bit more of a Raid boss; it's not like you can really kite karthus around (unless you're one of those 10 champions that have the tool, then you have a shot if you're 1v1).

Also, it's normal that ideas that are simply "replace X slow with Y" won't look good, since the kits were designed around having a slow.

If you wanted to change Kassadin around you'd probably start by making his passive put stack when he damages someone. Those stacks reduce damage they deal to him by a minute amount that stacks up to 4-6 times. Q now makes the target's next spell's projectiles (if any) move more slowly by a small %. W could refund mana based on stacks. E would consume stacks to gain a shield. R would have a slightly bigger cd but it get reduced (%-based to not get CDR-abused) based on the number of people hit. This now turns Kassadin from a mobile burst-mage with slow, into a champion that skips around the battlefield and dodges what you throw his way. Of course, the kit is far from perfect, since you can't get anythign really good in 15 mintues. It was simply to show an example of a champion who's given a new identity without his slow.

As-is, it's true that it's tough to change Karma's slow, but if you made her more of a disruptive (silence/blind/stealth/taunt) support, you could manage something really great. For instance, W could have slightly lower range and same tether range, heals you for part of the damage done and when using Mantra, you appear stealthed to the tethered enemy. It's somehing that allows you to stay relevant even as you get lower and it offers room for both play and outplay. Then, you have to add tools to perform without damaging the target, so probably a shield, and some kind of zone control with Q (heck, a slow similar to Lux' isn't even bad, since it's a different kind of slow).

YouLostMe1 votes

The homogenization is not between champions, but within the champion. For example, Xerath's thunderbolt is designed as a ranged snipe ability to catch fools out. Changing it to an MR shred makes it just another long-ranged nuke, which he now has 3 of. Weeeee

I think your conclusions are wayyyy off. For example, Karma has no way of catching people out without her slow, and whether or not she sustains in lane she will be mostly worthless post-laming when she can't land significant multi-target peel. Another example is Karthus, who is incredibly immobile and is also seriously bad if he can just get kited to death.

Of course, if you totally rework champions so that they don't have a slow, then they will be reworked and not have a slow. But this is getting into the realm of significant effort with minimal output. There still isn't anything conclusively demonstrating that slows are bad in the first place.

Critkeeper2 votes

Slows aren't intrinsically bad, but a deluge of slows is bad for game health because it causes the envelope of healthy melee champion design to possibly shrink below the number of melee champions in the roster. This demands reworks on those champions and those reworks will cull a few champion's kits who's theme as is cannot be implemented within the confines of healthy gameplay given the serious constraints that the ubiquitous slows put on them in team fights.

And that means some champions will lose their identity when they are reworked. Insisting that we allow 67% of the roster to have slows is tantamount to insisting that only a certain subset of all possible melee champions be appropriate for league, and reduces the creative design space to that area.

If you are in the position of head systems engineer and it is your task to enable champion designers to collaborate with balance engineers and artists to communicate as many different kinds of champions with different feel and gameplay as is possible, then you would not find it wise to arbitrarily cull the design space for melee champions without damn good reason.

The increase in the correlation between a champion subjectively feeling good or bad and the presence of a slow in that champion's kit over time is not a damn good reason, it is a happenstance that stands in the way of the collaboration between your artists and gameplay designers and the decoupling of it from the rest of the system ought to be the focus of the head system engineer.

If the task of refactoring 50 different champions to feel good despite losing their slow is impractical, then a systems level approach in changing the way slows interact with eachother and with champions would be more appropriate. It is possible to keep the properties of slows that allow them to act as mortar in champions kits that tie together clunky bits or smooth up rough places and make the champion "feel" better subjectively, while removing the properties which cull the melee design space. Change the way slows stack with eachother is how that is done.

YouLostMe1 votes

I think you are confusing "There are currently bad melee champions" with "Slows are making melee champions bad". The first is true (Poppy exists, so does Sion) but there is a very large breadth of potential healthy melee champions that can be made and there is no reason that certain melee champions cannot be unhealthy if the "problem" of slows is fixed. Demanding that we change an entire system just so that Poppy/Sion can be healthy in their native state is naive, because it takes a tenuous connection and declares that to be the defining reason for a champions' lack of health.

And no, it is totally possible to not lose a champion's identity when re-working it, assuming that identity is not unhealthy. Rengar's identity as a godlike split-pusher was removed, but his identity as a fighter that can pounce from brush was not. Sona's identity as a passive support was removed, but her identity as an auramancer was not. Skarner's identity as a permaslow champion was removed, but his identity as a sticky fighter was not. So on and so forth. To say that a champion's identity cannot be preserved unless slows are removed is just lazy design. There is hardly any creative space being culled unless you're unwilling to put in slightly more effort to make a bad champion better.

And I think that requiring a slow of some kind in 2/3 of champion kits is supported by the damn good reason of needing the ability to affect enemy's positioning in soft ways. And since it only negligibly affects the design space of champions, there is no need to totally rewrite 50 champions or completely overhaul the way slows interact (which wouldn't even fix the problem in the first place)

Critkeeper1 votes

And no, it is totally possible to not lose a champion's identity when re-working it, assuming that identity is not unhealthy.

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/621miiU8-planned-410-item-changes-attack-damage-attack-speed-wardens-mail-support-itemization?comment=000b0000000000000000000000000000

Xypherous:

Not particularly interested in this approach at the moment - mostly because there does not appear to be a set of intuitive patterns that solve this.

Because of this, I suspect that it's more likely that you'll end up with a well designed game that no one will play.

Ultimately, you have to weigh the gains of supporting glass melee (6 to 8 champions) versus forcing every melee player to jump through an unintuitive hoop to get there.

That being said, however - I'm making that statement off of ignorance. There's a lot of melee patterns and melee vs. melee knowledge that needs to be researched before we can actually talk about plans to do it. I'm fairly certain it would be premature to think about that pattern without understanding how melee are supposed to fight in general in a teamfight rather than how melee combat is supposed to be interesting in general.

"For example, skarner might just never work with these demands, or if not him perhaps some other melee champion down the rework road. What then?"

This argument cuts both ways. #**Whatever pattern you subject melee will inevitably cut off some patterns or portions of design space that may be crucial to the identity of some characters. **

You can claim that Skarner will never be work without going down the global solution path - but in all reality, the global solution probably says that some portion of the population is fundamentally flawed identity wise and needs to be destroyed.

In either approach - you will be nuking some character identities period.

Who is to say that slows only cull unhealthy melee designs from the design space? Who is to say that there aren't healthy melee designs that are culled by the existence of omnipresent slows?

In the context of the quote, any global solution to make melee champion design and interaction both more practical and healthy would cull some of the design space, but on the same note any global mechanism in the game whatsoever does exactly the same thing, whether it be how armor and health are figured or hitboxes or whatever else is global to the entire game.

Slows didn't used to be so common you could call them "global" to the environment that melee champions play in, but over time they have become more and more prominent. Not just prominent, but the "power cost" of putting a slow on a champion has gone down, and now many champions have slows and don't even need to be functional, just because it allows them "feel" better compared to the other two thirds of the roster that happen to have slows.

Now that slows are so common and cheap, it artificially culls the design space for melee champions. A melee champion pretty much requires a dash and his own slow or hard crowd control in order to function, and if he doesn't have both then he will have to itemize for the latter or fail to be competitive. So essentially, when RIOT goes to design a competitive melee champion they have to consume 2 of his abilities with mandatory gameplay and are only left with half of a kit to work on, which restricts creativity.

They can still be creative in that context, by tying a dash to some gameplay like a thresh hook or jarvan flag or something, but there are only so many ways to enumerate what is functionally a dash with a finite number of gameplay elements. At the end of a day any melee champion requires a dash to function, and the reason is because usually a melee champion without a dash can never reach a target before dying if he is slowed to 240 movespeed, so being able to dash allows the melee champion to apply his own slow and stick to the target he is trying to keep up with.

"Why not just give the melee champion a ranged ____?" is a slippery slope.

Critkeeper8 votes

Give an example of utility that isn't super strong CC and also isn't slows.

Windwall, zilean's revive, the vision deny on nocturnes ultimate or graves smoke canister, and the aoe speed boost of sivir's ultimate or her spell shield are all examples of utility spells that don't function primarily by denying your opponent the ability to move, make choices, or react to skillshots which would otherwise be dodgeable.

Why can't we have more of that? Powerful singular specific utility spells on champions that feel good and powerful and unique. Not just another generic bruiser with 2 slows a knock up and a dash, 2 nukes and some high base stats.

Look at j4's kit. Everything is so bland and generic except his ultimate and dash to flag combo, and his ultimate is an absolutely wonderful example of the type of ability I'd want more of in league of legends. Even J4 who would be a good example of the sort of champion I would want more of in league has a lot of power tied up in some arbitrary slow on a relatively generic shield.

He just has it pretty much because everyone else does and that creates an artificial context for how he "feels" subjectively. Why not put more power a lower cd on his banner and dash for example, so he can experience the gameplay that only Jarvan's kit (the unique flag dash knockup combo and the context switch it puts on the choices of enemy players) can support more often? Because it would not make him "feel" better as a champion in the context of the game with how ubiquitous slows are, even if it would reinforce J4 as a unique champion by underscoring his unique gameplay.

In other words, there are so many slows everywhere now it actually detracts from the flavor of league by compromising the intensity by which champion's gameplay are different. Slow itself isn't a bad mechanism, but the sheer omnipresence of slows are making everything bland. Its lazy design.

YouLostMe3 votes

Revive, projectile blocking, vision denial are all super unique and suited for 1-2 champions. If you think using these three is a good way to substitute slows, you are in for a shock. Even if you thought up 10 other new utilities, that still isn't enough. Speed boosts cause a nearly-identical problem to slows, so you can see why that's not going to fly.

I'm not sure which generic bruisers you're talking about... There might me 2 (3?) that fit that description at all.

J4's abilities are actually really cool, between %HP damage, a AS boost zone, and his terrain-creation. I'm not sure how on earth you get "bland and generic" from all his unique abilities. The reason you don't put super-low CD on his flag/dash is because that would be incredibly toxic gameplay. In fact, encouraging people to spam gap closers does exactly the opposite of what you want in the OP

I think you are failing to understand how slows work, and that's making you think they're homogenous. There is a world of difference between Nasus's wither and Zed's shadow slash. There is an enormous distinction between Irelia's stun/slow and viktor's stun/slow. Putting all slows into one category and saying "There are a lot of these, must be lazy design" is just a lazy critique.

Critkeeper6 votes

Even if you thought up 10 other new utilities, that still isn't enough.

Then we think up 40 new abilities.

Sire Hippington2 votes

I agree on J4 and eventually other champs that have a diffrent way of manipulating enemy movment, or buffing allyed movement, but a windwall is by no means a replace for a slow. U need slows or other mobillity targeted cc to creat plays, if u can't lock ur enemy down in some way, ihe will just walk of with no problem, unless u 100-0 him wich is probably the most healthy thing to have in this game. the only replacement for slows is a speedbuff, but the problem is that a speedbuff, unless aoe, only helps for selfish plays, u can't setup a fight for ur team with a speedbuff just on u. Aoe speedbuffs have some problems balancewise, as they allow for rappid rotaions on the map, wich is incredible powerfull on coordinated teams

Skias1 votes

Does anyone feel that the abundance of slows is a reaction to the mobility creep in the game? So many champions have extreme mobility, it becomes impossible to pin someone down without them.

Factor flash into the equation and you pretty much get a situation where we are now. You need champs to blow a ton of escapes before they can be killed.

(In fairness, this applies unless youre an assassin or mage and 100-0 someone.)

I think the only time we can see a reduction in slows, is a time when champs dashes get shorter or less frequent.

Sire Hippington3 votes

It's actually more the other way around, mobillity-creep is a reaction on the slows, as (melee)champs with no dash/step/jump have huge problems at dealing with slows, so more and more champs were givien dashes/steps etc to deal with slows

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