"MMOs have no supports since spamming sustain isn't fun"

chipndip1·Dec 12, 2016·2 votes·1,341 views

"Now that we're shoving heal/shield down every enchanter's throat with hardly any alternative choices of value, how come no one wants to support again?"

28 Comments

EedatDec 12, 20167 votes

MMOs have no supports

What? Every MMO has healers lol

chipndip1Dec 12, 20161 votes

You obviously took "no supports" quite literally.

LauchmelderDec 12, 20161 votes

Well BDO has none afaik. It's the only thing that keeps me from playing.

Z StatisticDec 12, 20161 votes

Actually, Skyforge has no healers though tbh is more like Diablo 3 with multiplayer dungeons than a proper MMO.

ScissorsNstuffDec 12, 20165 votes

"MMOs have no supports since spamming sustain isn't fun"

whoever said this was bullshitting.

chipndip1Dec 12, 20161 votes

Yup, I'm sure mmos are just BRIMMING with support players all the time.

ScissorsNstuffDec 12, 20162 votes

endgame probably. The biggest issue I've seen with support in MMOs is that

its hard to level and climb
If you want to support you have to collect hella expensive shit while playing a different class or you have to depend on other people to not be dumbasses

basically the same issue as league only you don't have to struggle so much to find a decent crew in an mmo usually (if you're the support character that is, everyone else can go fuck themselves, everyone loves a healer or enchanter though)

RalanrDec 12, 20161 votes

IMO the biggest issue with MMOs is the level grind.

LordofEntropyDec 12, 20163 votes

It's long standing issue that's been around for quite some time. The majority of players don't like the support type of role. Plenty of time spent in various MMOs and multiplayer games in general, waiting for a cleric/healer, enchanter/cc bot, and fairly often the straight tank/damage sponge. They just aren't as "sexy" as the various DPS types to a majority of players.

Several games dealt with this by eliminating healers in various ways: giving everyone the innate ability to heal, limiting healing to items such as potions, eliminating healing altogether (heal on death and respawn or returning to a safe spot).

People keeping saying Riot needs to make support more attractive so more people will play it. That is just not going to happen, it hasn't happened in like 40 years of gaming in various forms. Riot isn't going to make it appealing to larger group all of a sudden. Those who like support are going to play those roles, those who naturally don't, aren't going to suddenly start liking it.

Riot and/or the player base have to change the meta as it stands so that something other than the entrenched support/ADC botlane is accepted and viable, or people just have to accept(like people have done in many games past and present) that you spend some time waiting around for your support players to login. Or in the League case, deal with reluctant and inexperienced supports via autofill.

Zone of EndlessDec 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's long standing issue that's been around for quite some time. The majority of players don't like the support type of role. Plenty of time spent in various MMOs and multiplayer games in general, waiting for a cleric/healer, enchanter/cc bot, and fairly often the straight tank/damage sponge. They just aren't as "sexy" as the various DPS types to a majority of players.

Several games dealt with this by eliminating healers in various ways: giving everyone the innate ability to heal, limiting healing to items such as potions, eliminating healing altogether (heal on death and respawn or returning to a safe spot).

People keeping saying Riot needs to make support more attractive so more people will play it. That is just not going to happen, it hasn't happened in like 40 years of gaming in various forms. Riot isn't going to make it appealing to larger group all of a sudden. Those who like support are going to play those roles, those who naturally don't, aren't going to suddenly start liking it.

Riot and/or the player base have to change the meta as it stands so that something other than the entrenched support/ADC botlane is accepted and viable, or people just have to accept(like people have done in many games past and present) that you spend some time waiting around for your support players to login. Or in the League case, deal with reluctant and inexperienced supports via autofill.

this 100x

Honorable ZenDec 12, 20161 votes

the reason nobody likes to support is because people who play league of legends have aggressive playstyles or aggressive personalities. That's not bad - negative or evil, it's just that support is not competitive or aggressive and is boring to play. If you can be an aggressive support by all means do it. It's quite fun.

chipndip1Dec 12, 20161 votes

The reason no one wants to support is because the game doesn't even give an option to tackle the support role in a more aggressive manner even if you wanted to/have a lead, unless you build with non-support items.

NO ONLINE GAME is going to have players that want to support when they don't even have the option to get into the fun parts of the game, which is why many action mmos have either ditched support classes entirely or integrated a more hybrid approach to the support role for them. League has the tools to make the latter happen, and no one really wants that to happen...for whatever reason.

JorenciceDec 12, 20161 votes

Im a support main. And i play an agressive blitzcrank.

Boom proven wrong.

chipndip1Dec 12, 20161 votes

And what will you build?

Locket. Redemption.

The point is that your build won't match your champion since all the support items are extremely defensive.

JorenciceDec 12, 20161 votes

Actually my standard blitz build is pure tank/CDR.

Its rush 45% as fast as possible.

Then get tanky as possible.

Because a knock up on a 2.5 second cd is the shit.

Ive never built locket or redemption on blitz.

Troy242621Dec 12, 20161 votes

I actually like MMOs in healers. If a healer drops the ball, the entire party is getting wiped. If a DPS drops the ball, unless the instance is extremely challenging, it's slower and more tedious but that's about it.

In league, if the DPS or burster is crap, your team is likely losing that teamfight and, even if they don't, they can't take objectives very well.

If you play well as a support, you still rely on your allies to reap the benefits, and can be punished for their mistakes. If you're a DPS/burster and play well, it's far more direct, and you just reap the rewards outright. ADC is often disliked for the same reason; they can be punished for others' mistakes before they become relevant.

Brutalitops01Dec 12, 20161 votes

"Shoving heal/shield down every enchanter's throat" First off, notice Bard? He has 1 heal tool and it isn't even that strong unless it's charged up and certainly isn't the core of his gameplay. Second, notice Lulu? She has a lot more that she can do than just heal and shield. Third, Nami? Again, a lot more than just her single heal tool (that can also be used for some good poke). Fourth, Sona? Again, she has a heal (that also shields), but that's not the main reason you pick her. You pick her for the Q poke in lane and the ultimate stun. Ivern? Designed for the jungle, but he's still a support and still sees play in bot lane. Again, 1 shield and it's not the focus of his kit. Zilean? He could probably be considered a mage support rather than an enchanter, but he's still typically played support, and he doesn't have any heal at all. His revive ult is the closest thing to a heal or shield in his kit. The only supports who have "healing and shielding shoved down their throats" are Janna and Soraka, and even with them there's a fair amount more that a good player can do than that. Jannasec, Soraka E a Katarina right as she dives in and make her whole kit useless.

Then there are tank supports, like Braum, Blitzcrank, Thresh, Nautilus, etc. Braum has his E and Thresh has the lantern, but both of those are different from traditional shields, and other than that, not one of them can give their allies a heal or a shield in any way, shape, or form (except Face).

There are also mage supports, who are honestly legit busted this patch thanks to the "nerfs" on Rylai's that, for them, just made the item cheaper without cutting anything they actually buy it for in the first place (typically they buy it for the slow for Liandry's). Things like Vel'Koz, Brand, Zyra, and Annie when played as supports.

Also, give me 5 MMOs that DON'T have a heal-based support class of some kind, I dare you. Echo of Soul doesn't, but every class has the ability to heal themselves and others, so it balances out. World of Warcraft. Aion. Skyforge. All of them have support classes of some kind, and many can be considered heal bots. And, just like in League, those are the least common classes for people to pick in those games, but even in those games, there are often classes that are classified as supports who really don't have much by way of healing or shielding. Skyforge's Alchemist, for example, throws around potions that heal and buff allies and debuff enemies. However, there's also the Lightbinder, who heals and buffs allies.

chipndip1Dec 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"Shoving heal/shield down every enchanter's throat" First off, notice Bard? He has 1 heal tool and it isn't even that strong unless it's charged up and certainly isn't the core of his gameplay. Second, notice Lulu? She has a lot more that she can do than just heal and shield. Third, Nami? Again, a lot more than just her single heal tool (that can also be used for some good poke). Fourth, Sona? Again, she has a heal (that also shields), but that's not the main reason you pick her. You pick her for the Q poke in lane and the ultimate stun. Ivern? Designed for the jungle, but he's still a support and still sees play in bot lane. Again, 1 shield and it's not the focus of his kit.

Notice what they ALL build?

HMMMM item 3190 GUYS item 3107 WHAT item 3174 DO item 3222 THESE item 3504 DO?

All that variety. That top quality variety in item choices and build paths depending on the match. I mean, of course, because every other lane has the same thing...so it's to be expected that support has healing and shielding on every decent item in the role. Why on Earth is no one playing this shit again?

Brutalitops01Dec 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Notice what they ALL build?

HMMMM GUYS WHAT DO THESE DO?

All that variety. That top quality variety in item choices and build paths depending on the match. I mean, of course, because every other lane has the same thing...so it's to be expected that support has healing and shielding on every decent item in the role. Why on Earth is no one playing this shit again?

I RARELY see supports building any of those except the Redemption, and that's because Redemption is absolutely busted. Typically, I see enchanter-type supports getting item 3092 or item 3069 , item 2049 , and then usually item 3107 because it's freaking busted, then defense. Locket doesn't even give heal and shield power, Mikael's gives it but again, that's not the main focus, and I almost never see people buy it, Athene's, or Ardent Censor.

chipndip1Dec 12, 20161 votes

Locket doesn't give heal/shield power. It gives a literal shield, which synergizes with heal/shield power.

And with that claim, you're basically saying you don't even pay attention to support builds. There's not many good support items left after those to begin with in the first place.

Regardless, the point is: Why are we shoving defense down every support's throat? No matter the champ's kit or play pattern, itemization pretends everyone's Janna. It's like making every possible top laner build full tank, even the more aggressive ones like Irelia and Darius, then wondering "Man, we need more people in top lane". The role needs the option to focus on something else.

Besides, there's no way you can balance so many support items when they all share that same defensive space. One or the other is going to pop up as the op one because ALL of them do the same shit, so the best one wins, and right now that's Redemption.

Brutalitops01Dec 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Locket doesn't give heal/shield power. It gives a literal shield, which synergizes with heal/shield power.

And with that claim, you're basically saying you don't even pay attention to support builds. There's not many good support items left after those to begin with in the first place.

Regardless, the point is: Why are we shoving defense down every support's throat? No matter the champ's kit or play pattern, itemization pretends everyone's Janna. It's like making every possible top laner build full tank, even the more aggressive ones like Irelia and Darius, then wondering "Man, we need more people in top lane". The role needs the option to focus on something else.

Besides, there's no way you can balance so many support items when they all share that same defensive space. One or the other is going to pop up as the op one because ALL of them do the same shit, so the best one wins, and right now that's Redemption.

"Supports have no options other than defense"

Brand support typically gets FQC, Sightstone, Rylai's, Liandry's, then full AP and is a second mage. Zyra support does the exact same thing. Vel'Koz does too And these guys typically wind up doing the most damage in the game because of their aoe and damage.

Support items center around defense because support is primarily a defensive role. Not all top laners build full tank, but all tanks build full tank (typically). The biggest difference is that support is both a role and a position dedicated to keeping the ADC alive. Not all top laners are tanks, and not all tanks go top lane, but most build tank. Do most Enchanter-type supports tend to build similar things? Yes, but there are more than just enchanters. There are tanks and mages that are also typically played support, and they do tend to build different items from the enchanters. A tank support's build might not look too differently from a tank top laner's, but it will still have a few support items, like their gold item, Knight's Vow, and Sightstone. A mage support's build won't look too differently from a mage mid laner's, but it will have the gold item and Sightstone, like usual. You're probably only seeing this trend because the people who build with this trend are popular. Redemption is busted and really needs a nerf, so a lot of the more popular supports are ones who can build it and itemize to make it stronger. However, as people realize just how good the "nerfed" Rylai's is on mage supports who previously built it for the Liandry's synergy and didn't get the 40% slow with it anyways, you'll probably start complaining that you see Brand, Zyra, and Vel'Koz support too often and that they're doing too much damage.

You know what's really funny? I never see anyone complain about Smite's itemization, yet in Smite, you are literally forced to build the role's designated items. Supports can only build support items, mages can only build mage items, ADCs can only build ADC items, etc. League gives you the freedom to, if you want, go Sona support, get FQC, Sightstone, Lich Bane, Deathcap, Morellonomicon, and CDR boots if you want. Or to just skip the FQC and Sightstone altogether and go full AP Sona support. Seems like the more freedom people have, the more they complain about it.

chipndip1Dec 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"Supports have no options other than defense"

Brand support typically gets FQC, Sightstone, Rylai's, Liandry's, then full AP and is a second mage. Zyra support does the exact same thing. Vel'Koz does too And these guys typically wind up doing the most damage in the game because of their aoe and damage.

All of this is in their base kits, not anything they build. The point of having ratios is that you feel the reward of building them. If you never get that reward like everyone else does, then of course people won't be inclined to play the role. You don't need 80 - 100 ap per item, but it needs something or the problem's never going to be solved. Point, blank, period. It's not your team that needs to "thank you" that's the problem, it's the gameplay itself not feeling rewarding for 40 minutes long for most players, since the main things Riot put in the game to reward players, scalings and gold, are horribly lacking in the support role. Gold is obvious, but why ap too?

Support items center around defense because support is primarily a defensive role.

Alright, so here's where we start to dismantle this argument, even though this statement is obviously true. Yeah, the role is traditionally a defensive role, but look at the champs you just named. Look at Leona and Nautilus, two vanguards. Look at Blitz as well. All these champs that can be found in the role are primarily offensive champs, yet if they're building support items, everything's extremely defensive in both stats and effects. I'm not saying Leona needs 100 ad, or Zyra needs 500 ap end game. I'm saying that within support's itemization, there needs to be more offensive options to cater to that crowd and expand the role's audience.

Not all top laners build full tank, but all tanks build full tank (typically). The biggest difference is that support is both a role and a position dedicated to keeping the ADC alive. Not all top laners are tanks, and not all tanks go top lane, but most build tank. Do most Enchanter-type supports tend to build similar things? Yes, but there are more than just enchanters. There are tanks and mages that are also typically played support, and they do tend to build different items from the enchanters.

Now, look here. I get that Zyra and Brand build mid-laner items, but can we PLEASE stop referencing that? Here's the thing:

It's beside the point. Those mid laner items aren't support items. I'm talking about support items.
Everyone's suffering for the fact that Zyra and Brand build mid laner items through their high base damage output. You can't nerf it because they don't have shit to buy throughout the game (in a timely fashion), so their bases stay obnoxiously high. If they had things to buy at a lower budget that catered to their style of supporting, their early game wouldn't be so mind-numbingly painful.

However, as people realize just how good the "nerfed" Rylai's is on mage supports who previously built it for the Liandry's synergy and didn't get the 40% slow with it anyways, you'll probably start complaining that you see Brand, Zyra, and Vel'Koz support too often and that they're doing too much damage.

If anything, I want more supports to be able to tackle the lane more offensively rather than less, thank you.

You know what's really funny? I never see anyone complain about Smite's itemization

I looked at Smite's support items, and you referencing this is the downfall of your argument. Why? Because Smite has a Void Staff equivalent that debuffs people in a range, right? Tell me why ours is designed for freaking mid laners, but Smite's is designed for supports? THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. We could, but we don't, and we have no good reason why. We could give Abyssal a small redesign so it works on more hybrid picks like Sona and Lulu better, but "nah, go build Redemption". Hell, Smite apparently has supports that build +AD boots. AD ON SUPPORTS!? In League, that'd be blasphemy. Still, they're two different games, and LoL has only ap supports. So why does our support itemization pretend like everyone is freaking Janna?

And even after typing this, there's this "Spear of the Magus" thing in there. 2 different items that supports build that offer Smite's equivalent to ap that revolve around debilitating rather than healing/shielding. "Smite supports don't complain about itemization". I wonder why? Let's scratch our heads on that...oh yeah, because support's itemization is designed so everyone else has fun, not you.

If everyone's answer to "Hey, I don't want to be a Locket Pocket" is "Go play mid lane/Go build mid lane items", then it might as well be an unsolvable conundrum.

JorenciceDec 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"Now that we're shoving heal/shield down every enchanter's throat with hardly any alternative choices of value, how come no one wants to support again?"

What mmo doesnt have a support/healer?

Even guild wars 2 i played a pure healer.

And guild wars was famous for saying they had gotten rid of healers.

chipndip1Dec 12, 20161 votes

Don't take it literally. I mean "People don't play support in those games".

JorenciceDec 12, 20162 votes

I do. In evert game ever. I enjoy supporting.

I play pure mercy in overwatch and medic in tf2.

Fuck in battlefield games i do nothing but run around healing and reviving people.

If a game has a healer i HAVE to play them.

WoonStruckDec 12, 20161 votes

Actually, a lot of people hate the recent trend of recent MMOs not including healers, and sometimes even tanks.

There are many support classes in MMOs as well, as far as the ones with a large variety of classes.

People don't like support because you don't always have a noticeable impact, some people feel they don't get recognition, and the gold-income is low. In addition, you're usually considered the primary vision control guy, and many people don't like playing that game.

Reaper SorakaDec 12, 20161 votes

'I've got an idea! Let's give all supports low AP ratios on their support items, low AP ratios on their utility aspects and a 10% bonus to their shields and healing to balance it all out!'

tfrito.

bad arcade kittyDec 12, 20161 votes

that's a bs, i p!ayed tera and supports there were both harder to play than any dd and had way more responsibility too, and they still weren't popular at all