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@Meddler: What do you think Syndra needs to get back into the game?

darkdill··24 votes·2,317 views
Champion.gg - Syndra Middle Stats, Builds, Runes, Masteries and Counters

EDIT: Downvoted why?

Ever since Syndra's stun and Q were nerfed, her winrate took a nosedive and I rarely ever see her because of her extremely low reliability. A 44.75% winrate on Champion.GG and being positioned 39/48 among the mid-laners tells me that Syndra needs improvement.

However, I sincerely doubt you plan to just give her back her stun's reliability (because you guys never go back on nerfs like that) and that giving her Q lane-bully power would not be the direction you want to take. This begs the question of what CAN be done to make Syndra more viable.

I'd like to know your thoughts, Meddler, and supply some of mine at the same time.

#My thoughts

Syndra is supposed to be about "limitless potential", right? Well her late-game doesn't exactly say that to me, being less powerful at damage than Lux, Veigar, etc., while also having unreliable crowd control ever since that nerf to her E.

One major issue is that she almost never gets off a good 5-6 Sphere ultimate in a typical team fight because her Dark Spheres keep timing out unless you use Force of Will to extend a Sphere's lifespan (which is sub-optimal use of her W).

But what irks me most is that Syndra, even with 40% CDR, should be... spammier with her Q. Yes, 2.4 second cooldown is already spammy, but I mean Karthus' Q spammy if he had 40% CDR. Now, obviously that'd be broken if she just puts out 8 Spheres at once, so I suggest the following.

  • Change Dark Sphere's cooldown to 1 second.
  • Dark Sphere now requires Charges that replenish over time. Syndra can hold up to 3 charges at once.
  • Adjust Dark Sphere's damage and mana cost accordingly.

This allows Syndra to throw out a grid of Spheres very quickly and then easily perform a multi-shot (of sorts) with Scatter the Weak. It also gives her Q some nasty burst potential by letting her quickly bombard an enemy with 3 Dark Spheres in quick succession. This might lower her difficulty, yes, but I think it's worth it to give her some new plays and better ability to make setups.

35 Comments

Penguin Eclipse10 votes

This would probably result in early game damage nerfs. Again. Which she does not need. And late game a limitation of 3 charges would be a significant problem unless she regains charges extremely quick which sort of defeats the purpose of having them.

Really what she needs is for the Q nerf to be reverted. It was a knee jerk reaction to a problem that had already passed. That or add some power to her W. Arguably her most underutilized ability.

LankPants6 votes

That or add some power to her W. Arguably her most underutilized ability.

I feel the passive upgrade for her W should be better. The increased slow duration is just so worthless. I've literally never played Syndra and thought "Gee that was a close fight, maybe if I slowed them for 0.5 seconds longer I'd have won"

kcStranger1 votes

I like the idea of decreasing the mana cost on W. That thing will put you oom right quick if you use it much at all in lane.

Neo Cyrus7 votes

I disagree with your ideas because they will cause balancing issues that are not so easy to understand, don't ask me to get into this. I should point out that Syndra can also never really have 40% CDR, not with an efficient build anyway.

But I obviously agree that she's in a terrible place, see my relevant post which was ignored - http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/bgBRspGn-question-for-meddler-or-anyone-with-an-answer?comment=0002

LankPants3 votes

I should point out that Syndra can also never really have 40% CDR, not with an efficient build anyway.

5% from runes, 5% from masteries 20% from item 3174 or item 3165 10% from blue =40%

I also personally think that item 3060 is good into AP heavy teams, although I could understand why people disagree with that.

Neo Cyrus4 votes

Maybe in Bronze 6 but that sure as hell isn't applicable anywhere else. If you don't take MR glyphs you'll get shat on in any Elo not associated with brain damage, and blue buff lasts 2 minutes which you'll never get anyway because 99% of junglers are assholes. Even in Plat the fucking Shen jungler will take every blue and rage quit if you take it once. I'll assume the Banner of Command part was some sort of Bronze joke.

LankPants2 votes

If you don't take MR glyphs you'll get shat on in any Elo not associated with brain damage

http://www.probuilds.net/guide/KR/1901957632/2060871 http://www.probuilds.net/guide/EUW/2122119835/174035 http://www.probuilds.net/guide/EUW/2121801875/27550839 (Not CDR but not MR either) And of course, Faker http://www.probuilds.net/guide/KR/1862193908/4460427 But I'm sure you know more about how to build runes and masteries than any of these players.

Even in Plat the fucking Shen jungler will take every blue and rage quit if you take it once.

As a jungle main I feel they don't give them to you because you're an arsehole. If you're nice to people most of them will give you the buff. I've never had any problems at all getting blue buff as a mid, mostly because I ask in chat rather than walking over and expecting it.

I'll assume the Banner of Command part was some sort of Bronze joke.

Try adapting your builds. If you're VS 4 AP and a Corki you're going to want some MR. There aren't really any better MR/AP items unless you're super short ranged. Spooky Ghosts can fill the same niche but I just think banner is better.

Neo Cyrus4 votes

So you bring up the extreme opposite end. I have news for you, we are not pros using situational builds. There's a reason why you're in Gold 5 in OCE (which is literally equal to NA Bronze). You do wacky shit and say nonsense like "think outside the box" like the Bronzies do. I don't need advice from an OCE G5 (effectively NA Bronze) jungle main using pros as examples. Don't talk about things you have no experience in.

shteeeb5 votes

Syndra has been my most played champion for 3 seasons now.

She is still pretty good. Calling her weak is a huge overreaction.

As of now, my only complaints with Syndra are: -W -> E is buggy as hell. Much of the time the orb will get pushed out and either only do damage, or do damage + slow instead of stunning. -Similar to the first point, her E is buggy as hell. If you quickly Q->E a lot of the time the orb won't even be shot out. Recently her orbs will sometimes even be shot BACKWARDS. WTF? -Her Q hits like a wet noodle early game. I've started taking W and harassing with it since it does way more early. Her Q is extremely bad early ranks now. It did not need to be nerfed. -QoL change, I want her Q to be cast at max range towards the cursor if it is out of range. Just like Ziggs Q. I hate having my cursor just barely out of range and trying to Q->E quickly only to see my Q not go off.

shalexade4 votes

They nerfed the damage on her Q. They nerfed the effectiveness of her ULT. They nerfed mana regen. They removed her core item (DFG).

They dropped her winrate from just under 50% to 44%.

They aren't going to fix her- despite her being one of the most fun champs in the game.

Erockandroll3 votes

Aside from the obnoxious ranged stun. Syndra's problem was the Damage her Ult did when combined DFG. Her ult's function shouldn't be compensated so drastically because.

I might try instead just extending the lifespan of the dark balls, in the later stages of the game. At least this was She CAN get more balls off on her ult, but it would take more time to set up. The reason I say in the Late game instead of All levels is to prevent her balls from becoming obnoxious zoning tools in the laning phase. (with her long range stun)

darkdill5 votes

Maybe have it so that with each rank of her ultimate, the Dark Spheres get their duration extended by 1 second.

Syndrarella2 votes

[deleted]

Jofeyy1 votes

Her E bug where it doesn't stun the target has screwed me so much...

Fadedpf2 votes

buff Q base?

Cindikle2 votes

Her #1 issue is bugs. Mainly on her E.

Hopefully the upcoming skill shot recoding may fix this.

this was a non-issue before because her E was such a strong stun. And the changes they made to it made it even worse. It never used to bounce back at herself. There was just times the stun would not go off. My understanding is that this is because the ball was not counted as on the ground yet. Mainly from using W. It would actually push the W back and hit the target with both W and E's damage instead of E's damage + stun. Made it a long range burst tool instead. But the thing is that either way it's not reliable. She needs the stun more than the burst.

After that the problem is her Q. If they want to lower the damage, fine. I understand you want to make it less punishing to not dodge. But you instead are punishing Syndra for missing. I'd say give her W something to compensate. This keeps Q's power at a controllable level. Mainly in the form a new max rank bonus.

Throwing a Dark Sphere and hitting a champion will reset Dark Sphere's cooldown.

This would give her more mechanics that require skill and give her some power back. If done right she can get more ulti damage(not DFG level). As well as a quick QWQ burst if done right. Before you say this sounds OP, W is very transparent when it's being thrown at you. And this is mostly a lategame buff. It also gives a reason to rank W or E for once. Maybe even before Q if you want that quick 6 orb ult. In turn this could be a base effect to it. That may add to much early game power though.

LankPants1 votes

This would give her more mechanics that require skill and give her some power back. If done right she can get more ulti damage(not DFG level). As well as a quick QWQ burst if done right. Before you say this sounds OP, W is very transparent when it's being thrown at you. And this is mostly a lategame buff. It also gives a reason to rank W or E for once. Maybe even before Q if you want that quick 6 orb ult. In turn this could be a base effect to it. That may add to much early game power though.

The problem I'd have with that is that with 40% CDR her Q is a 2.4 Sec CD with her 2 sec stun. It would probably make a Q-E-Q-W-Q-R combo way to strong.

Cindikle1 votes

We are asking for some strong mechanical skill to pull it off though.

Could also make it require the champion be moving(synergizing with the idea of the slow). This would make using it on a stunned target a bad thing.

LankPants1 votes

Could also make it require the champion be moving(synergizing with the idea of the slow). This would make using it on a stunned target a bad thing.

That doesn't actually do anything about the pick combo I mentioned. The target is out of the stun just before second Q, long enough to start moving but not long enough to react without blowing flash.

We are asking for some strong mechanical skill to pull it off though.

It's not really to do with the mechanical skill it takes to pull of, it's more to do with the impossibility of escape once the first stun lands unless Syndra screws up. I feel like that's OK against squishy targets but this combo would probably be bursting through most bruisers.

Cindikle1 votes

I don't think it'd be that huge of an issue as the combo would require W's max rank. Even if you rank it 2nd that's level 13 at best. If you rank it first you give up a lot of power in Q.

She also likely wont have 40% CDR by level 13 without giving up or delaying important damage/survivability items. Unless you use runes.

There's also other champions can pull off similar combos if they land their CC.

  • Brand: Less scaling in his combo, more teamfight damage.
  • Lux: Comparable damage if you manage to AA after ult. Combo has more range(without AA). Brings more support effects.
  • Vel'Koz: True damage. Stronger teamfighter. Better ranges. Downside is that while he can do a lot of damage you can walk out of his ult after his E is over. and he can be CC'd out of it.
  • Annie: Stronger CC. Comparable damage with more AoE if the bear is able to stay on the enemy.
  • Malz: Space Aids. Melts tanks and squishes alike. One of the strongest CC's in the game(with it's own downside). Stronger mid game, weaker late game. In a 1v1 you will lose without QSS.
  • Veigar: Deletes mages. Although the cage has a delay, it's still a massive power in teamfights.
  • Zyra: Amazing teamfight damage. Tougher early game depending on the matchup.

What Syndra has over these guys is that her stun can be easier to land than most other CC's and the ability to cast while moving. She has more sustained DPS but that requires staying in range to use Q's. Which she likely wont do without proper team backup.

I'm not saying it doesn't have the potential to be OP. But don't feel like it'll be easy enough to pull off for it to be a real issue.

Another option could be to increase Q's CD by 1s(and revert some of the damage nerf). While this hurts her setup for a 7 orb ult. The fact she can reset the CD would make up for that. Or in turn increase how long the orbs stay out.

Then again this is starting to turn into a mini-rework. =\

LankPants1 votes

I just feel like it would be better to give her something small on her max W. Something like a 25% bonus MR shred (what Yas has but for MR instead of armour) for the duration of the debuff, this sort of change would help out her damage against tanks more than increasing her already high burst.

There's also other champions can pull off similar combos if they land their CC.

I think you're underestimating the damage of 3 Q's, an E, A W and a 6 orb ult in the space of 3 seconds. It's a 1720+(437% AP) damage combo at Lv 18. That's why I'm saying she could burst bruisers, with 500 AP she'd deal almost 4000 raw damage without any set-up, which puts Mal's combo that he needs to CC himself to use to shame.

At 750 AP she deals 5000 raw damage, with a Void, Sorc's and Luden's that's enough damage to burst a target with 3K HP and 150 MR.

Another option could be to increase Q's CD by 1s(and revert some of the damage nerf). While this hurts her setup for a 7 orb ult. The fact she can reset the CD would make up for that. Or in turn increase how long the orbs stay out.

This would kind of destroy her DPS.

Jofeyy1 votes

I love my syndra, but i feel this wont help her out very much. Her kit is fine, her damage and mana costs are not. I would like them to either revert the nerfs on her Q, buff her W so that it costs less mana to use and does more damage, or make it so that being hit with multiple orbs from scatter the weak (E) does extra damage with each additional orb. Kind of like her ult.

B0MBSIGHT1 votes

I made a topic earlier today that got almost no attention that sort of brought up this issue. Currently I think Syndra has one of the worst passives in the game. It doesn't interact with her kit or her build, and the passive could easily be integrated into the normal ranks on her abilities. I believe integrating transcendence into her normal abilities and giving her a new passive would improve Syndra a lot. One of my ideas is to give her basic spells larger aoe radius based on how many orbs she has out.

Shroom Junkie1 votes

I don't find it very useful in the idea that you're trying to make her Q spammier and her ult more useful, yet are making her be able to spam her Q even less. I don't know, maybe it could turn out well, but I just don't see it making an improvement.

Solidair31 votes

I'm actually not certain she needs buffs? Really just bug fixes. She's meant to be one of the more difficult toplay champs in the game, so it stands to reason that her overall winrate should be under 50%, perhaps even a great deal so.

Currently her E sometimes doesn't cause a stun, and also sometimes the ball is instead fired in a 180 degree direction directly back at Syndra. I think fixing these semi-major bugs would help her out quite a bit.

Though her early lane is weak, I consider it payment for her monstrous lategame. Between her pure damage from Q and W (I've recently been toying with W max second, with E's reduced reliability it's been helping me out greatly), her ability to cast most of her spells while moving and her ult, of course, late game I'm still able to just kill something if I want it to die, no matter how fed they are (which is a really powerful ability to have!) she's an excellent late game carry when played skillfully. I'm able to kite with my Q and W, and save myself with my E.

I dunno, I've been playing her since her release (when she was truly garbage tier) and I think she's actually in a pretty decent spot right now. She has clear weaknesses (pre-6) and strengths (mid and late-game) she just needs to get there to do her job.

LankPants1 votes

Though her early lane is weak, I consider it payment for her monstrous lategame.

Syndra really doesn't have one of those. Her late game scaling is fairly average for a mage, sure she can blow someone up but compared to true late game mages she lacks sustained damage.

Mages with real late games are guys like Karthus, Cassiopia and Azir. There's no way you can even compare Syndra's late game to any of them.

To make it even better every single one of these champs is at least somewhat stronger than Syndra early, Syndra only has a short window in the mid game where she's stronger than these champs.

Solidair31 votes

I think it's interesting you bring up the nature of her damage.

Personally, I would consider her damage to be semi-sustained, given the low cooldown of her Q (and middle of the road cd of her W) as well as her ability to kite to extreme effect thanks to her better than average range and her ability to cast while moving. I think these abilities are important to have in the late game.

And anyway, while I will say that Azir, Cass and Karth may all have better more truly sustained damage late, it's not very difficult for Syndra herself to take out and of these champs which her own combo; I actually consider Syndra among my counters to both Azir and Karthus directly.

Logan Richardson1 votes

I still play her and do just fine with her. Granted I will say that Q+E'ing someone at close range is a little more bugged than it used to be before her nerfs...But aside from that I think she's fine, land skillshots get kills, the way it should be.

FalconPawwwwnch1 votes

You could make it so the game is fun to play when she's good by making her ultimate have counterplay

darkdill1 votes

item 3157

Baseball3b1 votes

Though I agree that she isn't in the best place right now, those changes wouldn't really help her out that much. If anything, I'd like to see them focus on 3 things in some way

  1. Bug fixes -- mainly her E. The actual hitbox is fine, but the bugs have repeatedly cost me numerous kills and games

  2. Early game Q damage -- Most of her early game power that made her get hit with the nerfbat came from the insane hitbox on her E. After the hitbox nerf, the Q changes were overkill and need to be reverted

  3. Passive's Effects on W/E -- The 0.5 additional slow duration is just underwhelming compared to her theme of unlimited power/potential. Likewise, I find that the wider cone on her E isn't too useful, aside from having a wider stun when using her E after ulting. If anything, I'd rather see her W's passive effect changed, whether it's an MR shred, a stronger slow, wider aoe, etc

Edit: Additionally, I feel as if she suffers from sub par itemization for CDR as well since the removal of DFG which I mainly bought for the CDR, not for the active. (20% from Athenes, 10% from DFG and then Blue buff)

Ashenvall1 votes
  • At each cast syndra's spells or (only dark sphere), all CD are refreshed of X seconds (except ultimate?) (increase spell's cooldown?) or
  • Passive grow up with spells'level, not at level 5 or/and
  • Passive buff every spells: dark sphere +15% damage +X range + X% sphere's duration + X area ( maybe nerf at this point, it'll begin to become too "op" especially if every spells will be buffs by the passive) at level 5 or like I said previously..... or/and
  • repare E spell.....
  • New skin ( buffs boobs .....more serious......)
Stellafreyja1 votes

I think the best buff for Syndra without touching her damage would be extending the duration of the Dark Spheres. Also her E with a Dark Sphere needs to be easier to aim. I'm all for her E stunning for a short duration (under 1 sec) and then landing her E with a Dark Sphere extending the stun.

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