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Irelia Tweaks: More Bruiser, Less Assassin [Minor Adjustment Ideas]

ModThe Djinn··4 votes·2,289 views

Hey all!

Been thinking a bit about Irelia, and how some people aren't too happy to see her struggling a bit as a bruiser due to how good she is as an assassin. Here's a thought to adjust that -- it reduces her up-front damage and her squishy-killing in favor of more dueling power and better bruiser damage. Numbers are all rough, but I'm curious to see what people think of this.

IONIAN FERVOR Irelia gains 1 Ionian Fervor stack for every enemy champion or large/epic monster she strikes with an auto-attack, stacking up to 4 times. Ionian Fervor lasts for 6 seconds, with basic attacks against champions and large/epic monsters refreshing the duration.

Irelia's basic attacks deal 2-11 (based on level) (+4% total AD) bonus magic damage per stack, up to 12 - 66 (based on level) (+24% total AD). At 3 stacks Irelia gains 15/20/25% bonus attack speed and her attacks restore 3-25 health (+5% total AD). At 6 stacks the amount of attack speed and healing double, and Irelia deals an additional 8-96 (based on level) (+32% bonus AD) magic damage against shields.

Change Notes: Upping the damage and kicking in the AS boost sooner gives Irelia increased dueling capabilities, but requires her to actually stick to a target ato attack them rather than simply charging it up ahead of time to outright win burst trades, which helps her bruiser pattern be more rewarding while cutting into her dive-and-murder someone pattern. The sustain added in keeps jungle Irelia healthier and encourages her to duel aggressively, but limits her sustain to being able to remain in active combat with an enemy champion -- or sustaining it through bladesurges when possible.

BLADESURGE Damage decreased from 10/30/50/70/90 (+70% AD) to 10/30/50/70/90 (+7% of the target's total health).

Added: Casting Bladesurge on a target other than a champion or large monster refreshes the duration of Irelia's Ionian Fervor stacks.

Change Notes: This retains (and in some cases improves) Irelia's dueling capabilities without making her double or triple-tap burst chew into carries as hard. Assuming you hit 300 AD you're dealing 210 bonus damage, making the break-even point 2800 health -- well into Bruiser territory. She can also now use it to engage or keep up stacks, but at the active cost of mana.

10 Comments

Teridax682 votes

I question having the innate stack with autoattacks, rather than abilities, along with the new bonuses. Her current model rewards her for doing one thing by encouraging her to do another, whereas this model just rewards her for autoattacking with more autoattacking power, which risks making her more binary overall. I support the idea of eliminating her ability to pre-charge her steroid, but I'd rather do that by having her stacks disappear quicker out of combat with champions.

The change to Bladesurge I disagree with completely. Max health damage works to devalue tankiness, and if the intent is to reduce burst, simply reduce the ability's damage. Moreover, the added conditionals conflict with the ability applying on-hit effects, which should already cause the ability to stack Ionian Fervor. The simpler conditional here would be to specify that Bladesurge would only refresh, not stack, the innate after the first stack. This in itself is not a change I agree with, as Bladesurge is only spammable if Irelia uses her other abilities properly on her targets. I don't see why she shouldn't be rewarded for doing so, and if the intent is to prevent her from stacking her innate too quickly, the better solution may simply be to space out the bonuses over a larger number of stacks.

Also, considering how this is literally just a champion concept, with no major analysis or discussion other than a defense of the concept itself, shouldn't this be in Concepts & Creations?

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}I question having the innate stack with autoattacks, rather than abilities, along with the new bonuses. Her current model rewards her for doing one thing by encouraging her to do another, whereas this model just rewards her for autoattacking with more autoattacking power, which risks making her more binary overall. I support the idea of eliminating her ability to pre-charge her steroid, but I'd rather do that by having her stacks disappear quicker out of combat with champions.

As long as she is able to E/Q/Q/auto for a quick four stacks, having her stacks disappear doesn't really do anything to decrease her ability to instantly become a fully-stacked threat. I looked for models that would retain the on-cast effect, but most of them seemed either significantly more complex or significantly less reliable.

The change to Bladesurge I disagree with completely. Max health damage works to devalue tankiness, and if the intent is to reduce burst, simply reduce the ability's damage.

The intent was to reduce burst on squishy targets (i.e. "not chew into carries as hard") while enhancing Irelia's anti-Bruiser gameplay, which is precisely why I added a mechanic that devalues tankiness. Whether or not it's the right direction is up for debate, certainly, but the mechanic does accomplish the goal. My fear is that simply reducing the ability's damage makes it feel worse in all circumstances, whereas the goal was just to limit the number of times she assassinates you.

Moreover, the added conditionals conflict with the ability applying on-hit effects, which should already cause the ability to stack Ionian Fervor. The simpler conditional here would be to specify that Bladesurge would only refresh, not stack, the innate after the first stack.

Yep. Good catch. I had forgotten the ability applied on-hits.

This in itself is not a change I agree with, as Bladesurge is only spammable if Irelia uses her other abilities properly on her targets. I don't see why she shouldn't be rewarded for doing so, and if the intent is to prevent her from stacking her innate too quickly, the better solution may simply be to space out the bonuses over a larger number of stacks.

This was something I had considered, but had side-lined due to attempting to keep the passive as similar as possible. I think you've convinced me that the correct approach is to keep Q applying stacks, and increase the stack count by 1-2 instead. I think that still makes the E hit rewarding (as it lets you Bladesurge more, and thus stack faster) while still reducing the amount of stacks you can instantly generate.

Also, considering how this is literally just a champion concept, with no major analysis or discussion other than a defense of the concept itself, shouldn't this be in Concepts & Creations?

We've typically given some leeway for balance suggestions to existing champions, which is why it's here. This is the sort of content that is appropriate in both places, as it's part concept and part low-ish scope suggestions on a current gameplay concern.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qy3rpvx9,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-06-27T22:01:40.639+0000)

As long as she is able to E/Q/Q/auto for a quick four stacks, having her stacks disappear doesn't really do anything to decrease her ability to instantly become a fully-stacked threat. I looked for models that would retain the on-cast effect, but most of them seemed either significantly more complex or significantly less reliable.

Irelia's basic attacks do not stack her innate on Live, just FYI. EQQ can provide three stacks, but the fourth cannot be instantly obtained unless you ult (which happens more often later), use a quick W (which wastes the defensive bonus), or wait for another Q or E. She can certainly stack rapidly, but then again, EQQ implies a successful combo, so by all rights that is what should be happening in that situation. As you suggested later in your reply, giving her more stacks to reach the same bonuses could temper her ability to spike too quickly.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qy3rpvx9,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-06-27T22:01:40.639+0000)

The intent was to reduce burst on squishy targets (i.e. "not chew into carries as hard") while enhancing Irelia's anti-Bruiser gameplay, which is precisely why I added a mechanic that devalues tankiness. Whether or not it's the right direction is up for debate, certainly, but the mechanic does accomplish the goal. My fear is that simply reducing the ability's damage makes it feel worse in all circumstances, whereas the goal was just to limit the number of times she assassinates you.

I'm not saying that max health damage doesn't accomplish the goal of giving more power against bruisers, my point is that it's an effect with far greater ramifications than just that, and those ramifications carry side-effects that are liable to have a net detrimental effect. Too many champions already have been given anti-tank damage, which has itself pushed tanks to a state of balance where they feel too difficult to kill without having to resort to a mechanic that devalues their tankiness. Your proposed change further adds to this problem. If Irelia already has anti-bruiser elements in place, yet still isn't feeling strong enough against bruisers, tuning those balancing levers first is likely to be much more economical, as well as less cannibalistic.

I also think part of the issue here, as often happens with anti-tank damage, is that the damage turning into max health obfuscates the real problems at hand: for sure, nerfing an ability's damage will make it feel worse to use no matter what, but you're already doing that versus squishies, as per your stated goal. Just because the number's red on the tooltip and has a fancier scaling does not change that. No matter what you do, if your changes succeed, Irelia will not burst down squishies as hard, and that will feel bad for her players. That is fine. Giving her more burst damage against tankier opponents is not going to change this, and as mentioned above may only make things worse.

Considering how her Q is meant to be used like a second autoattack anyway, it would make sense to keep it at similar levels of damage. If you really want to nerf her burst, and perhaps make her more tactical, you could even go as far as to remove the Q damage against champions altogether, though that would likely require you to put more damage into her innate instead (which could itself be an opportunity to make that particular effect feel more impactful).

D357R0Y3R1 votes

before doing all those changes they have to remove the marking mechanic, something that even ICU expressed

the marking mechanic was not needed and made the rework completly hilarious https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8u6nle/why_the_new_irelia_will_never_work_by_irelia/

ModThe Djinn4 votes

{quoted}

before doing all those changes they have to remove the marking mechanic, something that even ICU expressed

the marking mechanic was not needed and made the rework completly hilarious https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8u6nle/why_the_new_irelia_will_never_work_by_irelia/

I've read that assessment, but I'm not sure I agree. I think the marking mechanic adds a lot to her feeling of dancing around the battlefield, and I think it's valuable to retain that. It's true that keeping it around does make balancing her a little bit harder, but I think a suggestion like mine that decreases the damage in multiple Qs and leaves mobilty is the primary reward against less durable targets might resolve a lot of the frustration points around the marking system well keeping the highlight moments.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

her fantasy should have been wielding blades around with telekinesis, not dancing and being yasuo2.0

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

her fantasy should have been wielding blades around with telekinesis, not dancing and being yasuo2.0

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think Irelia lives up to that fantasy decently in this rework. Additionally, this wasn't an attempt to RE-rework her -- merely to adjust her current gameplay a bit.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I like these suggestions, they seem reasonable. +1

ZevBenjamin1 votes

I'm conflicted. i think these changes do look reasonable on paper. Not sure if they'll make her survive top lane like others. +1 for visibility however!

Nyarlathοtep

+1 Because it sounds pretty healthy and you keep her mobility, without hitting her teamfighting.

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