why does the new dragon give damage first shouldn't that be like the last thing it gives

SantanaTheSlick ·Mar 26, 2015·6 votes·1,071 views

and its pretty easy to get at early game :I

33 Comments

EndlessSorcererMar 26, 20156 votes

It allows either team to get the damage increase after a single dragon. So, if one team is controlling dragons very well, the enemy team only need to get one successful dragon to get the damage buff. And, while you can get the buff early, it isn't really significant until you get a hefty amount of AP and/or AD from items.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

While I see your point, the point of dragon is to commit to continuing to get them (the goal, at least in Riot's mind, is to get all the way to Aspect), not just grabbing one for extra damage, then going for more if your team's in a good spot and happens to be able to.

EndlessSorcererMar 26, 20155 votes

The thing is that it allows a losing team to try and recover by getting a single dragon, instead of getting them further and further behind. Whether it's the best system I don't know, but I believe that was their reasoning behind making it the first buff.

Riot's main goal was to make Dragon's an important objective later in the game, which the stacking system does. Now, you still see teams fight over dragon until the end of the game due to how strong Aspect of the Dragon is instead of ignoring it when the gold stopped mattering.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

This is true, but the placement of dominance and wrath makes them currently a little useless. They help, definitely, but by the time you get them, they aren't that important.

NarasimhaMar 26, 20151 votes

Not really, by the time you get them, is generally the time when pushing becomes the theme of the game. Its generally a bit past mid-game, and edging into late game, where every tower counts.

Sailor MintMar 26, 20156 votes

Because it's 6% Ability Power and ~~Bonus~~ AD. Not a flat bonus. It's really weak during laning and mediocre until two items or so.

You gain a small amount of early and a larger amount late. Since it's the first buff, both teams should eventually have it. You can't realistically deny it from the enemy team and neither teams should snowball too hard off of it.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

It isn't bonus AD, it's total. Play someone without any bonus AD, and you'll notice that your AD turns green (AKA, is increased by something) after you get dragon.

Sailor MintMar 26, 20153 votes

You need 160 Total AD to get a Long Sword worth of AD.

That's BFS + Pickaxe.

Kitten of EvilMar 26, 20152 votes

Hm, so is that what it's considered in game? I was always confused about this, because it'll show like 75 + 5 AD, but bonus-AD scaling skills will have + 0 tooltip from it. Does it affect the base AD from Sheen or Triforce, if it's not Bonus?

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

It gives you bonus AD, but the bonus is based off of base. Excellent question!

Kitten of EvilMar 26, 20151 votes

If that's the case, then why does it add +0 tooltip damage to skills which scale off bonus AD, like Varus' E? Is that like a "Deathcap doesn't show the 30% number" tooltip bug or is it actually not adding any damage?

SmknWdlMar 26, 20154 votes

IMO it should be

Dominance (damage to minions/monsters) Might (+6% AD/AP) Wrath (damage to towers/buildings) Flight (+5% MS)

Because think about it. Dominance makes it a much better early game target for junglers, making teams aim focus around getting dragon early. Many more early game team fights, much more focus on that dragon buff. Might next, giving lanes some control in the early/midgame. Wrath 3rd, helping teams push out towers and win sieges in the mid/lategame. And flight is there to help teams gain better map coverage lategame, and also chase during team fights. Thoughts?

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

This would work too.

R110Mar 26, 20151 votes

Hmm, damage to minions and monsters is really huge to have early on. It used to snowball games out of control when it was the second buff, if one team had it while the others just kept getting pushed in their towers or you got in the situation where both teams had it and constanly cleared waves without any effort. I don't think putting it first would be healthy.

I like the way dragon works currently because it makes you want to have at least one dragon, the second buff is nothing too major but it mainly puts you closer to the third buff you really want as the 5% extra movementspeed is pretty huge (look at how they continuously nerfed Janna's passive). The fourth one also doesn't have a huge impact in the late game but it mainly gives your team a lot of pressure when the next dragon spawns.

SmknWdlMar 26, 20151 votes

Well the only use i see for the 4th one atm is for defense, like super minion clearing. Although if you have 4 dragons you most likely aren't dealing with supers but who knows.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20153 votes

Imo, it should go:

Dominance (damage to minions/monsters) Wrath (damage to towers and buildings) Might (+6% AD/AP) Flight (+5% MS) Aspect of the Dragon

Drunk RummateMar 26, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Icy Auron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QxhfsLsm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-26T14:01:53.195+0000)

Imo, it should go:

Dominance (damage to minions/monsters) Wrath (damage to towers and buildings) Might (+6% AD/AP) Flight (+5% MS) Aspect of the Dragon

I agree.
Minion damage first when shoving waves and CSing is a priority Tower damage second when many comps like to group and siege (IE- caitlyn comps) Damage when a lot of large scale teamfights start to break out Movespeed when most towers are down

It would increase the incentive to take dragon, or deny dragon, since players would be missing out on buffs at key times for their composition or strategy.

I think the issue is that it really takes away from comeback potential if one team gets 3+ dragons while the other can only secure 1 or 2. Missing out on that damage isn't as big of a deal early on, but later in the game when people have 200+ AD or 500+ AP suddenly it matters a lot.

SantanaTheSlick Mar 26, 20151 votes

now everyone is rushing dragon and getting that early game damage. What if the enemy draven has a bf sword and attck speed boosts oh now they have dragon he is going to do More damage making him even more harder to duel

Sailor MintMar 26, 20151 votes

Before they swapped Wrath and Dominance. Early bonus damage to minions made pushing against Ziggs and his wave clearing friends impossible.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

I main Anivia, I get where you're coming from.

lightdragoon88Mar 26, 20157 votes

I disagree.

With the Dominance being first, those with good pushing will end up pushing way to easily and make it impossible for the opponent to fight back.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

I could see this happening. My main is Anivia, so I really do. I was just trying to think of the most logical flow for every position. It'd help jungle clear faster, it'd help counter excellent pushers if your team got it (incentive to contest dragon!), it'd help with last hitting, and the main reason I like this order is because it limits your bonuses against champions. AD/AP helps against everything, whereas damage to minions doesn't help your team fighting.

lightdragoon88Mar 26, 20151 votes

In that case the MS bonus should be first. Allows you to get back in lane faster, dodge skill shots (if you are good at it) and it can help junglers get into a gank or to escape a gank.

Then minion pushing be second since at that time it can be around mid game when split pushing can happen.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

I like this too, but MS is the most powerful bonus. I fear putting it first would cause a lot of problems that people don't immediately think about. MS is an extremely underrated stat.

lightdragoon88Mar 26, 20151 votes

But the full power of the MS boost isn't until they upgrade their boots, which they never really do at first dragon.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20152 votes

5% MS, even with Anivia's base MS (the lowest in the game, 325) is 16.25. That isn't that miniscule. That's the difference between the lowest MS and above average (340 is fairly typical). Then, like you said, it only improves. You could say that the AD/AP bonus doesn't really get going until you have a lot of items, but that early in the game, every point helps. Dealing damage specifically to minions would help break gridlock in lanes without increasing your ability to team fight.

Sailor MintMar 26, 20151 votes

It's a pure defensive buff in a game that currently struggles to see offensive plays early. Turrets take significantly less damage before 7:00. Dominance, available as early as 2:30, could make taking Outer turrets impossible.

We've had Dominance as the second buff a few patches ago, it didn't work out.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

"Struggles to see offensive plays"? No offense, but are you joking? People care WAY TOO MUCH about the early game. Many of my games are won because I focus on scaling harder than my opponent.

Sailor MintMar 26, 20151 votes

Taking turrets is hard. You can't win games without taking turrets.

Win condition shouldn't be "you must ace the enemy team before you are allowed to take an Inner Turret". I'd like to be able to close games without relying on Baron buff or waiting 40 min to get 5 dragons.

Thankfully, recent changes made not as hard. Swapping Dominance back down would fling us all the way back to square one.

Icy AuronMar 26, 20151 votes

Games usually last half an hour, and I rarely see anyone go for baron anymore. Also, I almost never see anyone get four dragons.

EmbertineMar 26, 20151 votes

Riot's logic regarding that was, since it would be early game, the actual damage you received form it would be minimal.

As for myself, I think they should have left bonus damage against towers last.

GaleWinUnleashedMar 26, 20151 votes

The idea is that yes, first Dragon gives an actual boost to combat, but you only retain this advantage over the enemy if you then manage to control every single Dragon for the rest of the game. Damage is first in order to better reward stealing a dragon from a well-coordinated team that may have been controlling it very well. This way the most obvious combat boost (of the first 4 buffs, that is) can still tip the scales, but it doesn't require a huge investment of time by the other team to even things back up again.

KamaiMar 26, 20151 votes

The other side of it, besides damage being a weak buff early, is that having either 5% MS or 6% damage on the first buff make it the strongest comeback mechanism. A team that is down 3 dragons and gets their first out of a lucky fight is going to get the most from those 2 stats.