Suggested fizz tuning and changes.

HongChongDong··5 votes·1,111 views

"But fizz is always broken" "He's OP" "He just got reworked and you're already asking for changes? GG" (apparently reworks means buff for a champion now?)

No. Fizz right now is not in a good spot with the rework. Granted, initially I thought riot did a good job but, I guess alot of things look good on paper. Turns out the 2 second delay on his W was infact not a good change in the least.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for "delayed damage" to give other champions some counterplay to champions like LB and zed. However this only works for them, not fizz. Now of course, you could say I have no idea what I'm talking about and say "fizz is broken wtf noob" but this time I have better backing! Fatefalls.

On stream he's reviewed the fizz rework and said he's completely non viable in high elo now, the delayed damage on his W is not right, and that fizz's only use now is to get atleast 4 items and just attempt max range ults for "ok" damage.

I think though that the rework was in the right direction at the very least. With that, here's my suggestions:

As the "Tidal Trickster" fizz should be a hit and run champion in the first place. Not someone who runs around waiting for a mark to proc.

W

  • Remove the "triple damage for hitting a mark" mechanic and make all of the damage upfront.

  • Increase the Scaling. I would increase the scaling another 50% or more (this has a purpose that I'll talk about with his E). If early game scaling is too scary with that sort of ability then add a scaling to the scaling. Either make the AP scaling increase with ability or champion level, or add in a scaling that gives you 10% increased AP scaling per 100 AP, or something similar.

  • Base damage should also be increased.

E

  • Lower base damage, scaling, mana, and Cooldown.

  • This ability should be focused towards utility and mobility, not a primary damage spell.

  • Increase the range of the dash as again, this should be a utility and mobility focused spell, not his best source of damage.

R

  • Either increase the missile speed of the shark or increase the short range damage. It's just such a slow moving and noticeable ability that those max range sharks are super hard to hit, even if you have the vision advantage.

  • Change the mark mechanic to interact with the shark:

  • Fizz's sea stone trident mark remains on a target for 7s after fully stacking. (2 versions of this) If the shark latches onto a marked target, the damage is increased by 50%. If the shark latches onto a marked target, the shark instantly grows to full size.

The basic premise of this idea is to really fill the role of a hit and run champion that fizz should be. Enough damage to hit hard when he hits but also not quite enough to 1 shot people with no counterplay, all the while running around on the outskirts of a fight waiting to go back in or even potentially start/finish the fight with an ulty.

EDIT- For reference for those who don't know: Fatefalls is a high elo fizz main that has played in Masters, and is consistently in high diamond. He knows everything about fizz and whether or not the champion is viable and Riot themselves have also used his input as a driving factor behind how fizz is changed.

17 Comments

fizz meistër2 votes

i totally agree, the 2 second delay on fizz has ruined him im on my road to quit this game bcuz of this stupid change

HongChongDong2 votes

No good team will let you "dodge a bit for 1 second". Logically speaking, even in such an unrefined elo as plat teams will stop you immediately the moment you get in range. It doesn't matter what they're doing, they'll immediately switch focus to providing utility (shields heals ect) to whoever they know you're focusing and the support or mid laner will have an exhaust ready for you. At this point those calculated damage numbers go into the tubes. An entire second in league is ages if the players are even semi competent.

Wild Wes1 votes

Yeah I personally find his ultimate change is horrible. When you try to get maximum damage it's too hard to follow up because the enemy is too far away. But then when the shark is small it's like practically useless. Also I hate that they removed the damage increase when his ultimate is up. I do like the changes to his Q and W and his W change makes tank Fizz dead.

HongChongDong1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I personally find his ultimate change is horrible. When you try to get maximum damage it's too hard to follow up because the enemy is too far away. But then when the shark is small it's like practically useless. Also I hate that they removed the damage increase when his ultimate is up. I do like the changes to his Q and W and his W change makes tank Fizz dead.

Not sure if this is what you mean, but, tank fizz being dead is a good thing.

Wild Wes1 votes

Yeah I used to play tank Fizz and it was scary how strong it was. I'm also happy tank Ekko is gone.

Dracocrash1 votes

I really like the fizz changes, he was trash before and I think theese changes are really good for him, but now hes gona take a skill and not be as easy as before. (this is coming from 165K mastery fizz player)

The big ult, makes it easier to land long range ults, and landing an ult makes it really easy to proc the empowered W, because the ult applies the W DOT.

The mana change on his E allows me to sspam it more for waveclear without going oom

the rank 1 cd change on his Q allows for more outplay potential.

the fact that his Q applies W on multiple units also makes his wave clear arguably better.

BUT THE BEST CHANGE TO FIZZ WAS BY FAR THE W RESET CHANGE.

Fizz gets Shoved under tower, and often had problems csing under tower, with the W resets and auto attack reset its really easy now.

Sorry, but give fizz some time before you want to change him.

HongChongDong2 votes

[{quoted}](name=NoganksOnlyFarm ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvAZM7Id,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-10T18:50:11.123+0000)

I really like the fizz changes, he was trash before and I think theese changes are really good for him, but now hes gona take a skill and not be as easy as before. (this is coming from 165K mastery fizz player)

The big ult, makes it easier to land long range ults, and landing an ult makes it really easy to proc the empowered W, because the ult applies the W DOT.

The mana change on his E allows me to sspam it more for waveclear without going oom

the rank 1 cd change on his Q allows for more outplay potential.

the fact that his Q applies W on multiple units also makes his wave clear arguably better.

BUT THE BEST CHANGE TO FIZZ WAS BY FAR THE W RESET CHANGE.

Fizz gets Shoved under tower, and often had problems csing under tower, with the W resets and auto attack reset its really easy now.

Sorry, but give fizz some time before you want to change him.

Specifically quoting Fatefalls "Fizz will still be strong in low elo but he's no longer viable in high elo at all". I'm not trying to offend you but your experience with the champion is diluted because of the elo you're in where player error is the leading factor rather than a champions potential. But if it'd help I'm currently at 261k with fizz and with his several accounts fatefalls has atleast triple that.

Dracocrash1 votes

ok, thats your opion. Lets give fizz a little time and see how it works out :)

five oh tree 1 votes

You just have to adjust the gameplay. Very few champs are viable in master elo anyway. Because the guppy and the shark both proc the trident, the assassination pattern is actually the same if you play it successfully, and it even has a little bit more burst tied in. I'm sure fatefalls knows what he's talking about with fizz, but fizz is no longer fizz. We should give it more time and let people adjust to him. R+w/q will kill any squishy (unless you're a fuckup and shoot the fish from point blank range) once you have a couple items.

HongChongDong1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ninja swaggy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvAZM7Id,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-10T23:23:11.599+0000)

You just have to adjust the gameplay. Very few champs are viable in master elo anyway. Because the guppy and the shark both proc the trident, the assassination pattern is actually the same if you play it successfully, and it even has a little bit more burst tied in. I'm sure fatefalls knows what he's talking about with fizz, but fizz is no longer fizz. We should give it more time and let people adjust to him. R+w/q will kill any squishy (unless you're a fuckup and shoot the fish from point blank range) once you have a couple items.

I won't deny the idea of it taking time for people to figure out a champion but at the same time it's also true that fizz has significantly less damage than before and is useless without his ult.

five oh tree 1 votes

I agree that they moved a lot of power into his ult and that he could maybe use a slight buff. However, I think it should be noted that most assassins already relied on their ults to actually kill their targets, and fizz is just being brought into line with that.

HongChongDong1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ninja swaggy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvAZM7Id,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-11-10T23:37:30.865+0000)

I agree that they moved a lot of power into his ult and that he could maybe use a slight buff. However, I think it should be noted that most assassins already relied on their ults to actually kill their targets, and fizz is just being brought into line with that.

Big difference is that most assassins don't need their ult. Most will still be perfectly fine on their own in terms of power but their ult furthers their power and typically add more utility. This is not the case for the current fizz.

five oh tree 1 votes

I'll have to disagree with that. Akali? needs ult. Zed? needs ult. talon needs ult after grouping begins. Before those champs get ult, they have next to no kill potential unless their opponent is already behind or makes a serious mistake. However, fizz can still kill people without ult. It's not too hard. Rengar definitely needs ult. Kha'zix needs ult only for evolutions. could be argued for katarina and leblanc. shaco doesn't need ult. ekko doesn't need ult.

HongChongDong1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ninja swaggy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvAZM7Id,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-11T01:05:05.771+0000)

I'll have to disagree with that. Akali? needs ult. Zed? needs ult. talon needs ult after grouping begins. Before those champs get ult, they have next to no kill potential unless their opponent is already behind or makes a serious mistake. However, fizz can still kill people without ult. It's not too hard. Rengar definitely needs ult. Kha'zix needs ult only for evolutions. could be argued for katarina and leblanc. shaco doesn't need ult. ekko doesn't need ult.

Not counting the obvious champions who's ults are essentially basic abilities (Akali, Diana, and Kass). Rengars ult is essentially a free leap and barely anything more so if you have a nearby bush it's effectively the same. Zed doesn't need ult. If you catch someone then you typically have enough burst even without ult, it's just alot less safer. Talon can still do things without ult. and finally fizz basically requires you to ult someone in order to get your W off properly and even then you do surprisingly less damage than what you'd expect. If you were to attempt to proc it without ult you'd be counter bursted and/or CC'd to death.

five oh tree 1 votes

Fizz needing ult is like zed needing ult. There's no way for zed to kill someone who is more than 300 units away without his ult. Rengar needs ult to gank.

HongChongDong1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ninja swaggy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvAZM7Id,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-11T01:34:52.960+0000)

Fizz needing ult is like zed needing ult. There's no way for zed to kill someone who is more than 300 units away without his ult. Rengar needs ult to gank.

That's a problem of utility, not damage. I'm talking pure damage here. In order to actually deal enough damage to kill someone fizz needs the best possible ult hit unless it's some sort of champion that naturally falls prey to him stupidly easy, rengar and zed do not.

five oh tree 1 votes

Fizz can for sure kill someone without ult. Let's say we have a level 9 fizz with lichbane and he does not have ult. How you kill someone right now as fizz without your ult is you q through them, dodge a bit for 1 second, then e back onto them and plop down on them. You then use your w active and hit them.

q - 10 (+35%) (+50% from lich) (+78 physical) w - 75 (100%) (+50% from lich) bleed for 6 seconds: 37.5 (+49.5%) e - 275 (+75%)

adding this together, he does a total of 475.5 + (359.5% ap) before masteries are involved. With average runes, doran, and lich together, fizz will probably have somewhere around 140 ap at this point. 3.595*(140) = ~502

this is all equal to 978 damage in ~2.5 seconds without ult and before calculating masteries/keystone. The average mid laner has 1100-1200 health at level 9.

With ignite at level 9, (230 true) he ends up with 1208 damage. If his target is still alive, one more auto attack will finish them.

correct me if any of the math is wrong.

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