Can we stop complaining about win rates and pick rates?

Linna Excel·Mar 29, 2017·7 votes·730 views

In the past riot has said on several occasions that they don't really balance around win rates. They've got other meterics they find more important. They've also said in the past that they've had characters with good win rates who still felt pretty meh to play, I remember them talking about pre-rework Sona like this in particular.

She was really good, but because of her "hidden power" you couldn't easily correlate playing Sona or having Sona on the team with the win. What they did with that information turned into a mess, but it speaks about how a champ can have a good win rate and still not violate the things riot is concerned about. I mean here was a case where you had a good champ but it still felt weak to play.

11 Comments

AhristocatsMar 29, 20172 votes

what about ban rate?

Linna ExcelMar 29, 20171 votes

Ban rate is fine as I think it's probably more important than pick rate or win rate.

trash sionMar 29, 20172 votes

...

What?

Should we be looking to champion skin sales metrics for balance then?

Winrate and pickrate is the ONLY thing that matters in balancing. If a champion has a high winrate AND pickrate, they're OP and need nerfs.

A high banrate or low banrate has nothing to do with balance, it just means their kit may or may not be frustrating to play against. This is not an excuse for am extremely high or low winrate.

For champions like old Sona not "feeling" powerful despite being powerful, that's a problem with the champion's kit. It isn't an excuse for a high winrate. Are you implying that Sona could have a 70% winrate and not "feel strong" and it would be fine to leave her that way? What kind of idiocracy is this?

Linna ExcelMar 29, 20171 votes

Winrate and pickrate is the ONLY thing that matters in balancing. If a champion has a high winrate AND pickrate, they're OP and need nerfs.

Or the one favorable meta for that champion just showed up and 90% of the time that champ is underpowered and forgotten.

MaddmazzMar 29, 20171 votes

I tend to agree with you here. I don't find Arhi or Lulu bad to play against. Also the fact that nothing has changed with their kits in a while it just seems like they are the next thing to complain about in a never ending line of things to complain about.

LauchmelderMar 29, 20171 votes

Sometimes a champion can become too strong due to nerfs to her counters.

MaddmazzMar 29, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qt9jibyL,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-03-29T15:10:02.976+0000)

Sometimes a champion can become too strong due to nerfs to her counters.

I don't find either of these champions oppressive to play against. In an assassin meta both of these champs can be 100-0. The most annoying thing to me is catching Arhi. Most of them just run run run.

LauchmelderMar 29, 20171 votes

I'm not calling them oppressive either. Ahri is too strong, but far from the OP or even broken area.

She still needs a nerf though, simply thanks to her winrate/pickrate ratio. A champion with such a high pickrate shouldn't easily get 50%+ WR.

AnonagonMar 29, 20171 votes

They have said that win rate is not the only metric they balance around, but they still do balance around it. Winrate and pickrate together mean a lot more than any other metric we as the players have access to. A high combined win and pick rate is almost always indicative of balance problems - while there are several cases of champions with high winrates going unnerfed, there are next to none for champions with both high win and pick rates.

SwiftKitten88Mar 29, 20171 votes

winrate is generally the best indicator if a champion is OP or weak.

but not always

for example... if a champ has a high winrate like Ahri ... but isnt even in the top 25 bans in any elo.. despite the fact that made be slightly strong, CLEARLY the VAST majority of people would rather face HER than other champions..

where as Lulu has a similar winrate but people are willing to ban her.... making her MORE of an issue.

and although ahri and lulu have pretty steady winrate across all elos..

other champs may be VERY strong and pick ban in one elo... while being absolute trash in another.. and therefore you CANNOT justify flat out nerf or flat out buffs to them. when the solution is to clearly make it so she is better while at the same time worse in the other.. or at the very least make ONE of the elos... whether it be the one that's too high or two low.. more balanced WITHOUT making the other one even worse.

like a champion with a 53% winrate and even a high ban rate can at times be justified if one of the elo is absolute trash (like less than 45%) clearly we want to close the winrate gap, but that isnt always easy... some you have to pic what elo is in the middle ground which can put one elo out of balance but is nearly impossible to justify if they have a winrate rate in EVERY elo while also having a high ban rate

ahri has a high win rate yes... but again... no one is willing to ban her. so its not a very high priority issue.