Reminder that Promo Series is holding players rank back with randomness.

SzGamer227··6 votes·3,425 views

Here's the short and simple. Players are matched with others of their skill level. If you're being matched with players of a higher rank than you, you earn LP faster, although you still have ~50% win rate. The problem is that Promo Series requires you to win a majority of your Promo games despite the fact that you are being matched with players of your skill level. Even if you are promoting from a division below your actual level of play, you only have a 50% chance of beating your Promo Series.

This is usually just an annoyance, it but can become hellishly frustrating just by random.

Potential solutions:

  • Replace Divisional Promo Series with a single Promo Game, and League Advancement Series with a best of 3 played against players in Division 5 of the League being promoted to.
  • Make division skips occur more generously (a 2-3 division difference would warrant a skip).
  • Remove Promo games.

And as usual, I'd like to point out that I am unranked this season, so I don't experience these problems for myself. I'm just pointing out that this is a problem, and expressing that I have a problem with other people having this problem. Thank you for understanding.

22 Comments

LeDjent4 votes

I could see the reasoning behind Promo Series for being promoted from Bronze -> Silver, or Silver -> Gold, etc. but just moving from Silver 5 to Silver 4 is kind of silly. You're still in Silver!

Thrëat2 votes

They should just put more effort into syncing your rank with your MMR. I have 2 smurfs, 1 is Gold 5 with Gold 1 MMR and another is Plat 5 with Plat 2 MMR. Luckily for me I don't care about the stupidity of this as much since it is just my smurfs, but if someone had that problem on their main account I could see them hating the system. Going vs almost a full tier higher is kind of ridiculous. At this point the system should have just skipped you to within at least half a tier without worrying about LP. Yes you do gain more than you lose, Yes you will skip divisions after you finish promos, but it shouldn't take 6-7 wins to get within half a division of where your MMR is.

dunder kill2 votes

Reminder that artificial safety nets at 0lp are also holding players up.

Weird how nobody ever complains about that one though

SzGamer2271 votes

Safety nets allow players to actually feel good about promoting, without having to worry about falling back down immediately, so it serves a purpose. And people don't complain about being in a higher rank than they belong, at least nobody that you or I knows. Promo Games are likewise supposed to make you feel good about promoting, but unfortunately, it has a side effect of causing RNG-inflicted Elo Hell and preventing people from feeling good about promoting, a problem that can be remedied.

dunder kill2 votes

All you did was make excuses lol.

Hate to break the news to you, but ranked isn't about making everyone "feel good" and only promote them. There would be absolutely zero point to it.

Special snowflake generation in full swing on this one

SzGamer2271 votes

If you pay any attention to the reasoning behind Riot's changes to the ranked system, it's that they wanted to add a feel of working towards a goal and seeing a payoff for that work. Promo Games were created with this in mind. They literally serve no point besides adding extra work to getting to a new League and making you feel more accomplished for doing so.

If you're going to argue that they serve another purpose, go right ahead. If you're going to argue that they don't fulfill this purpose, I'm fine with that, and I'm not going to defend it further. I'm here because Promo Series is a problematic element of the ranked system as of right now, and it needs to be addressed, whether by fixing to system to keep the intended benefits without adding unnecessary RNG or by removing Promo Series entirely.

Also, if you think I'm making excuses, I would kindly point out the part of my post that says

{quoted}

And as usual, I'd like to point out that I am unranked this season, so I don't experience these problems for myself. I'm just pointing out that this is a problem, and expressing that I have a problem with other people having this problem. Thank you for understanding.

The Sword Saint1 votes

They serve a point, the point is that without this extra measure that forces people to prove they are good enough to win consistently at their current rank the ranking system will become inflated due to the safety nets that exist at 0 lp. Divisions are one thing and a few losses at 0 lp can drop you back a division so it only want's 2/3 games for promos, but the net for players who reach a new tier is far faaar more powerful. You need to lose enough at 0lp at division 5 to start facing someone an entire division lower (g5 playing verse s5 players) and STILL be losing to those guys before your safety net stops and you drop down a tier.

If you don't have promo series holding people back, then too many people will eventually by sheer luck have won and lost their games at 50% winrate in an order that puts them just above the bottom of the next tier and would then be protected from falling down. Elo inflation ensues.

SzGamer2271 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QkgmhRB0,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-23T14:43:06.629+0000)

They serve a point, the point is that without this extra measure that forces people to prove they are good enough to win consistently at their current rank the ranking system will become inflated due to the safety nets that exist at 0 lp. Divisions are one thing and a few losses at 0 lp can drop you back a division so it only want's 2/3 games for promos, but the net for players who reach a new tier is far faaar more powerful. You need to lose enough at 0lp at division 5 to start facing someone an entire division lower (g5 playing verse s5 players) and STILL be losing to those guys before your safety net stops and you drop down a tier.

Here's the thing: Promo games aren't played at your current rank, it's played at your current MMR. If you're Silver 2 playing at a Gold 5 MMR, you play your promo games against Gold 5 players. Thus, losing your promos doesn't prove that you aren't winning consistently at your new rank, because promo games aren't actually played against players of your new rank (unless your MMR is Silver 1 0LP and you're rank is Silver 2 100 LP).

If you don't have promo series holding people back, then too many people will eventually by sheer luck have won and lost their games at 50% winrate in an order that puts them just above the bottom of the next tier and would then be protected from falling down. Elo inflation ensues.

Aha, but that's just it. Promo Series are generous enough to let people get through with luck easily. You have a 50% chance to win your Promo Series on your first try. It's not stopping people from reaching tiers through sheer chance, because it is in itself a chance mechanic. Therein lies the problem: A chance mechanic is letting people to new ranks randomly whether they belong or not, and is gatekeeping people who do belong for the same reason.

If you want a system in place that accurately reflects someone's rank without inflation due to unearned safety nets, you should either be arguing for Promo Series to be played at the rank being promoted to make it harder for people to get there by chance, or for Promo Series to be removed entirely and simply have MMR be the only determining factor in ranked. Both of these solutions just happen to solve the problem of RNG gatekeeping as well.

The Sword Saint1 votes

They already do that even said it. You have to play against people at a higher mmr than your rank and win consistently in order to get through promos. That's how you prove you are better then your peers. Going 50% wr against your own rank only proves you belong there, going 50% against those in a higher rank proves you deserve an at least slightly higher rank.

Also, we want the safety nets to stay. The do an excellent job of dealing with the ranked anxiety that added so much stress to players in earlier seasons that fewer people playing ranked and those that did dealt with more toxicity in game because they were never able to reach a point where they could relax and be assured they wouldn't slip down too far from a couple bad games.

The safety net exists so that you don't drop down too far and feel like shit just because of a lose streak, as long as your skill level is still around your rank so that over time your winloss at that rank evens out. We use to have the system where you just had elo = mmr and people were at all times a bad night away from dropping from the equivalent of plat to bronze. Such a loss is disheartening enough to make people quit the game or at least ranked, and the fear that any progress you can make can be lost so easily discourages people from even trying.

SzGamer2271 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QkgmhRB0,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-23T16:04:55.744+0000)

They already do that even said it. You have to play against people at a higher mmr than your rank and win consistently in order to get through promos. That's how you prove you are better then your peers. Going 50% wr against your own rank only proves you belong there, going 50% against those in a higher rank proves you deserve an at least slightly higher rank.

You say that playing Promo Games "forces people to prove they are good enough to win consistently at their current rank". I refuted this by pointing out that losing your Promo Games doesn't mean that you don't belong in your current rank. MMR is the proof that you belong in one rank or another, and Promo Games randomly gate people with a higher MMR than their rank from reaching the rank they belong in, even if the difference is as extreme as a Plat player trying to pass Bronze Promos. Having a 90% win rate against Bronze players means nothing when it comes to Bronze Promo Series because you're matched with other Plat players. You still have a 50% chance to pass.

Also, we want the safety nets to stay. The do an excellent job of dealing with the ranked anxiety that added so much stress to players in earlier seasons that fewer people playing ranked and those that did dealt with more toxicity in game because they were never able to reach a point where they could relax and be assured they wouldn't slip down too far from a couple bad games.

The safety net exists so that you don't drop down too far and feel like shit just because of a lose streak, as long as your skill level is still around your rank so that over time your winloss at that rank evens out. We use to have the system where you just had elo = mmr and people were at all times a bad night away from dropping from the equivalent of plat to bronze. Such a loss is disheartening enough to make people quit the game or at least ranked, and the fear that any progress you can make can be lost so easily discourages people from even trying.

I'm not opposed to safety nets. My preferred solution is to make the RNG element of Divisional Promo Games bare minimum by requiring only one game to pass to make only extreme bad luck have an effect on the amount of extra games you have to play, and making League Advancement games played at the League's skill level regardless of the player's MMR as an accurate test for the player to prove they belong in that League. I would also like to see Divisional skips be more generous. Neither of these imply removing safety nets. I only brought up the complete removal of Promo Series and divisional barriers to make the point that solutions to your proposed problem and my proposed problem coincide.

What I want you to understand is that, just like falling out of a rank you just worked hard to earn, it would also feel like shit to be gated from a higher rank because of RNG. 1 in 6 League Advancement Promotions involve losing 2 Series by chance before promoting, causing a player to have to play at the very least 16 additional ranked games to promote when the system already knows they belong at a higher rank. If 100k players have advanced from one League to the next, 1,500 of them have had to play more than 32 games to pass the Promo Series. This would be hell.

The Sword Saint1 votes

If you are good enough to win consistently you don't need to grind a bunch of games and pray. That's the point. You are speaking from a hypothetical perspective, I've actually been playing ranked since season 2. I've experienced this system and the mmr=elo system from before. If you deserve to climb you will have no real issues with promos.

SzGamer2271 votes

With MMR always adjusting to make games fair you can never expect to hold a win rate above 50% for very long, and you can't just will yourself to have a higher win rate just before Promos, either. Will you always rise eventually? Yes, but Promo Series is the only part of ranked climb that doesn't get faster when you're a higher MMR. Standard Ranked games give you more LP for being higher MMR, but Promo Series are still left to chance.

Most people don't get gated, but there is a chance, and with a huge playerbase, numerous people are subjected to that chance.

The Sword Saint1 votes

The benefit of having high mmr in a promo series is back loaded. You still have to go through them, however if your mmr is significantly higher than your rank and you pass promos you will often skip ahead one or more extra divisions from a single promo.

The chance that someones true skill happens to be just under or over the cutoff for a division or tier always exists that that is unfortunate for them, however the solution to that also exists which is to just get a little better than so they their true skill rises a little further past the cutoff and makes it easier on themselves.

SzGamer2271 votes

Skipping ranks and Promo Series only occurs if your MMR is hugely different from your Elo. If you're a Diamond smurf, or boosting Bronze accounts to Gold, you would see this, but over the course of a standard ranked career where you gradually increase in skill and climb one division at a time over the course of a season you won't be skipping Promo Series.

Essentially, having higher MMR than rank only gives you a benefit the difference is extreme enough to qualify for skipping. Making the skip system generous enough to allow skips when the difference is as small as 2 divisions would halve the number of Promo Games you have to play to go get from Silver 3 at Sivler 1 MMR to actually being Silver 1, and also give RNG only one opportunity to screw over random players rather than two.

UKP LK1 votes

Everyone climb fine as it is now, it separate the skill level of players pretty accurate I would say unless we count the amount of boosted account lol.

Either git gut or better luck next time =D

SzGamer2271 votes

sigh

Gotta love them downvote bots

Who is Taliyah1 votes

I'm not a bot

SzGamer2273 votes

Then speak up. You're no better than a bot if you don't tell me what's wrong; forums are a place to discuss issues, not disapprove and move on.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Ok look, here's the thing that people seem to constantly not realize about climbing ranks.

If you have played enough games to achieve an accurate rank of your current skill, you are - wait for it - NOT SUPPOSED to be able to keep climbing by playing games. If you only have a 50% winrate at your current elo, THATS IT you're done. The system has found your current skill level.

Of course you feel like trying to get through promos at a 50% winrate is a gamble, thats the point - the system DOES NOT WANT YOU to get promoted with only 50% winrate. You have to actually improve at the game and get better so that you start winning more than 50% of your games at your current rank, THAT is how you prove that you are more skilled than your current rating.

It feels like rng to you because you aren't better than the people in your elo and are hoping that luck favors you so you get a promotion you don't deserve.

SzGamer2271 votes

I've brought this up with you in the discussion above, but I'll leave it here too so people don't go on thinking I haven't responded to this.

With MMR always adjusting to make games fair you can never expect to hold a win rate above 50% for very long, and you can't just will yourself to have a higher win rate just before Promos, either.

Promo Games aren't played at your current rank, it's played at your current MMR. Because of this, Promo Games randomly gate people with a higher MMR than their rank from reaching the rank they belong in, even if the difference is as extreme as a Plat player trying to pass Bronze Promos. Having a 90% win rate against Bronze players means nothing when it comes to Bronze Promo Series because you're matched with other Plat players. You still have a 50% chance to pass.

Challenger Ahri1 votes

You also get a free win below Plat, so they're kinda helping the lower elos in a way too.

SzGamer2272 votes

It does help a little , but if you look at the math done in the link in the main post, there is still a lot of opportunity for RNG to work against players. 1 in 6 times someone promotes from one League to another, they have to retry their Promo Series at least twice, resulting in ~20 games being added to their ranked climb for no big reason. There are rare circumstances when someone might be playing 30-40 games to promote, and with a player base as large as League's, this level of Elo gating happens to hundreds if not thousands of players over the course of a season.

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