Here's how I personally view the "Marksmen in every game" issue

chipndip1··6 votes·628 views

So one side argues that marksmen fucking RULE over bot lane like drones, and that they're always mandatory in the game, and Riot LOVES marksmen/AD way too much, and some other complaint.

On the other hand, we got the notion that even though marksmen are usually in meta team comps, they aren't actually broken or overpowered all the time. There's times where playing marksmen is kind of akin to severe suffering in your face and buttocks, just like there's times when playing any other class is either super good or super bad. So stop harassing marksmen, or some other plea.

Well, honestly, with all that established, as much as it's true that marksmen aren't always a major pain point in the game's balancing, I honestly feel like bot lane's meta is a bit...crusty because of our inability to introduce a new type of viable bot lane occupant besides marksmen. In an ideal LoL, you should be able to take different approaches to dealing with a match than relying on one specific type of champion out of all the sub-classes to pepper down turrets. Lemme explain in full:

If I'm playing an RPG of some kind, how do I beat the game? You kill the enemies...duh. Different RPGs give you different classes to work with in order to accomplish this goal...a mix of offensive and defensive stuff. Atlus has a franchise, Etrian Odyssey, that allows you to make your own custom squad to tackle the whole game with. Really close to League in the sense that you always can just draft a shit ton of marksmen and try to wing it, right? Regardless, you beat RPGs by killing the enemies. Offensive classes do just that, and defensive classes protect the offensive classes while they do that.

Let's translate this concept to LoL, though: We got skirmishers, assassins, divers, marksmen, burst mages, battle mages...a lot of shit that covers the offensive side of things. We got vanguards, wardens, enchanters, catchers...not as much on the defensive side, but aight.

So why do marksmen always show the fuck up in every game? In my RPG example, I should be able to use my defensive classes to protect my damage dealing classes to kill enemies and get the job done...as in plural...as in not a specific one. I'm not FORCED to specifically take back line dps to beat even the hardest bosses in those games (yes that concept also translates to that game...it's a fun game). So what the hell gives? Simple: In my Atlus RPG, I can slap together a team of 5 characters that'll work together to kill some enemies. In this moba, I can contribute to slapping 5 characters together so we can beat 5 other players.

...but who's designed to kill turrets?

Like who's REALLY designed to properly deal with turrets?

That's when you have to cut out everyone BUT marksmen, because even though a ton of classes can fight champions, marksmen are the only class that's really thought out and well done when it comes to fighting turrets. LoL doesn't just have enemies to deal with. The addition of structures means that if we want variety in bot lane, a class of champions that isn't marksmen needs to be manually retooled by Riot so they can also share in the ability to deal with turrets well. It's like if Etrian had a super boss where, Idk, he became fully invincible and prepared to auto-wipe your team unless you had the damage to destroy some periodically made, low damage structures throughout the fight.

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/etrian/images/c/c9/Ur-child_fix.png/revision/latest?cb=20120514141816

(Kinda similar to how the Nexus is fully invincible until you destroy some of those pesky, low damage structures during the match, huh?)

Fortunately, the game provides most of the dps classes with moves to deal with that, and provides the utility classes moves to enhance their ability to do so, but that only reemphasizes the point where LoL basically would only have one class that could deal with this type of obstacle well. Not saying it's impossible without a marksman, but doing it well without one is extremely difficult. Now imagine if you're playing Etrian, trying to beat this ugly mofo, and those fucking little turds showed up and that's about as far as you go over and over again. Are you gonna keep banging your head into the wall until you luck out, or are you gonna redraft and change your party so that it can properly deal with those stupid things so you can ACTUALLY BEAT THIS GUY? If we're doing it like LoL, you'd only have one option to pick if you wanted to do so: The fucking marksman, and there's your problem.

If you never address "who will deal with turrets outside of marksmen", you'll always need one, anyway, even if marksmen are generally weak, because marksmen are the only ones designed to deal with a major obstacle in the game. It isn't a matter of marksman strength. It's a matter of necessity, regardless of strength.

18 Comments

Rebonack4 votes

Dominion had a pretty elegant solution to this problem.

Turrets there weren't 'killed' by auto-attacking them. They were 'killed' by channeling on them. And everyone could do it. From the same range and at the same rate.

Surprise surprise, Marksmen were totally optional on that map.

Done253 votes

Well Trundle used to be able to Q a tower to take it quite quickly, but then Riot went "Too OP gotta stop that.".

Meanwhile, Trist 4 shots towers.

Riot simply doesn't want anyone who isn't a marksman to take towers.

Tormentula2 votes

They brought back his tower Q tho. Reason for them removing it was to try and diversify LCS (where trundle was basically every game for sieging and farming), something trist rarely sees.

SolarisCorvus1 votes

{quoted}

Well Trundle used to be able to Q a tower to take it quite quickly, but then Riot went "Too OP gotta stop that.".

Meanwhile, Trist 4 shots towers.

Riot simply doesn't want anyone who isn't a marksman to take towers.

Trubdle can q turrets again.

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Incorrect. Or rather, based on an incomplete premise.

A big thing contributing to having a marksman in the duo lane in every game lies in the fact that this class of champions is the least negatively affected by sharing XP. As ranged auto-attackers, their main survival tool (range) seldomly scales with XP, while their damage is amplified a lot more with gold than with XP (for instance, a single BF Sword is about equal to all AD they get from 17 levels). Contrast melee champions, who need survivability from Health and Resistances, and ability-focused champions, who scale way better with XP as far as their damage is concerned.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Incorrect. Or rather, based on an incomplete premise.

A big thing contributing to having a marksman in the duo lane in every game lies in the fact that this class of champions is the least negatively affected by sharing XP.

They also scale comparitvely slowly because of this, yet even in scenarios where you're aiming to win early rather than later, you'll still pack a marksman.

As ranged auto-attackers, their main survival tool (range) seldomly scales with XP, while their damage is amplified a lot more with gold than with XP (for instance, a single BF Sword is about equal to all AD they get from 17 levels). Contrast melee champions, who need survivability from Health and Resistances, and ability-focused champions, who scale way better with XP as far as their damage is concerned.

I mean, that's fine, but anyone can be a monster with gold, not just marksmen, and marksmen are also heavily handicapped when they're shut down in lane, which you'd think would matter when it comes to strategic diversity. This all ties into the fact that, no matter what, regardless of the lane match-up, the turret match-up is a totally different game, and one class of champions stands way above the rest in that game. Thus, you're always gonna have a marksman in your game. Now, this explains why they go bot all the time, obviously, but the point is that they're always there in some form.

Teridax683 votes

The MOBA genre as a whole revolves around taking down structures until you destroy the enemy base. This is the core gameplay to League of Legends, but also Dota 2, Heroes of the Storm, Heroes of Newerth, Smite, Paragon, etc. Out of all these games, League is the only one where each team has to have at least one marksman-type character, and where that character always takes the same lane every game. The issue, therefore, is not simply that marksmen are mandatory because of their ability to clear turrets, even if that contributes to it.

One aspect of this is that while marksmen are currently the only ones deemed good enough at taking down objectives, they are only one of the game's two DPS classes, the other one being fighters. As a class specializing in both DPS and survivability, fighters should technically have persistent damage on the same level as marksmen, while having enough defensive potential to survive pushing or fighting around turrets, at least for short bursts. Currently, however, that is not the case, as marksmen possess significantly more damage, even when not counting their crit multipliers, and approaching an enemy turret while the enemy team is around is considered too unsafe to be worth trying. Also worth mentioning is that, in most other MOBAs, turrets are affected by many spells, in addition to autoattacks, so casters there can contribute to sieging as well. In League, turrets are only damaged by autoattacks, and the end result is that pushing power is slanted even more towards one of the few classes capable of using their abilities against them, via stat steroids. Effectively, marksmen are considered the only class capable of objective control in League because many other classes that should be able to do so as well, cannot at this point.

Another reason why marksmen are mandatory is because, in addition to being a carry class by default, marksmen carry harder and more safely than any other carry. Melee carries like Nasus or Master Yi have a lot of trouble surviving teamfights, because it's easy to kite them and/or burst them down, and non-marksman ranged carries like Cassiopeia or Ryze have to contend with mana gating to their damage, and more expensive builds, yet still end up dealing less damage than marksmen on average. Ashe, for example, is not a particularly damage-focused marksman, yet she outdamages every single one of the aforementioned carries by a significant margin, including the melee ones.

So in the end, the issue with marksmen isn't just with their pushing power (many other classes can push, just not as well), but that they tend to do more than other champions, and are often better at the things non-marksman damage classes trade a lot off to specialize in. Saying Riot loves marksmen too much or the like is subjective, but statistically speaking, when calling out marksmen for dominating bot lane and being mandatory every game, that is empirically true. Not only that, but League is literally the only game where this happens, as many other games have equally valuable carries across all types, and while some still use the concept of the ADC, such a class isn't mandatory to every team on every match. Because of this, I think it would be accurate to say that League's design over time has focused way too hard on making the marksman the centerpiece of either team, as it has affected the state of itemization for both them and other classes (e.g. Ardent Censer, a marksman-centric support item), as well as champion design (e.g. enchanters like Janna and Lulu innately handing out marksman-oriented stat buffs). I think there is a lot that could be done to decouple marksman from these advantages without compromising on their identity, and taking the development time to genuinely look for ways of allowing non-marksmen carries to shine, such as by introducing support items that benefit non-marksmen the most, could show us a state of the game where marksmen don't have to be mandatory to be valuable.

The Last Ballad2 votes

that, and the fact that the instant another class came down to bot lane(Ziggs) people cried out in anguish.

Meanwhile other lanes have to deal with the like of Quinn Lucian Ezreal Graves Tristana Kindred Vayne and Xayah, hell we even had MissFortune and Ashe go support!

And lets not forget the "marksmen in every lane" season 5 fiasko.

Teridax682 votes

Indeed, and the way Riot handled Ziggs bot lane did not make me happy. While Ziggs himself received no changes, marksman items were buffed so that he could no longer compete against them anymore: not only did marksmen ostensibly not need more stats, but the lack of effort made to help Ziggs or any other potential competition remain in the bot lane carry position was a huge missed opportunity. In an environment where bot lane has had the same marksman-support setup for years now, and where attempts to force diversity there have all failed, having a non-marksman naturally arise to become viable and healthy in bot lane should have been taken as an absolute godsend. Instead, it elicited a knee-jerk reaction from both the playerbase and the devs, who immediately moved to reestablish the status quo, at the expense of the game's overall health. The next time such an opportunity arises, Riot needs to capitalize on it, imo, and they should already be trying to figure out why Ziggs could succeed in bot lane, and how to replicate that success.

chipndip12 votes

They didn't even touch Ziggs before he left. They just buffed his competition iirc.

Also, "marksmen in every lane" was season 6, was it not? You know, the marksmen update?

KoKoboto2 votes

You can't crit turrets and crit is core to marksmen gameplay.

So I guess we gotta remove crit chance from marksmen because it's excess power. Their main job is to kill turrets.

DrCyanide2 votes

Marksmen have Crit, Attack Speed, and Attack Damage as their core stats. Crit might not help take towers, but Attack Speed and Attack Damage do. Attack Speed combined with Attack Damage kills towers even quicker than either one on it's own.

Contrast that with Mages, the other ranged carry class. CDR and Ability Power are their core stats (and sometimes Mana or Mana Regen depending on the champion and the state of items). CDR doesn't help them take towers faster (unless your name is Ziggs), and Ability Power is cut in half when being applied to towers, despite not having Attack Speed to combine with (that would be an AP Marksman, not a Mage).

There's no two ways about it, Marksmen core stats are designed to be the way to deal with towers, with their closest competition being hampered from the get go.

So I guess we gotta remove crit change from marksmen because it's excess power.

I'd be ok with that. Riot's stated reasons for keeping Crit seem flimsy at best

KoKoboto1 votes

Why are you telling me this?

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

wrong, wrong, and wrong

any ranged champion can take down tower, except shitty enchenters like nami

when i mained adc darius in master, towers were the last thing i cared about when it came to problems

ADCS are not requiered to take towers

yes, it's faster if you have them NO, it does not mean you will lose if you don't have them, you can for sure siege without them but it will take more time

so it doesn't explain why they're picked in 100% of the games

dota had marksmen not requiered since years, and they never had a problem with towers

chipndip11 votes

{quoted} That's when you have to cut out everyone BUT marksmen, because even though a ton of classes can fight champions, marksmen are the only class that's really thought out and well done when it comes to fighting turrets. LoL doesn't just have enemies to deal with. The addition of structures means that if we want variety in bot lane, a class of champions that isn't marksmen needs to be manually retooled by Riot so they can also share in the ability to deal with turrets well.

Didn't I put it in bold?

Dealing with something WELL is the issue, not "at all". I literally put what I meant in bold. You don't see juggernauts bot even as a recognized gimmick lane for a reason, Rubick...except the super rare Mordekaiser...I think. Idk, haven't seen it in months.

And if I'm actually wrong...which I'm not, then why is there always a marksman in the game in some fashion (especially bot lane)? You could just run someone that scales faster than them and reign in free gold. Like Yasuo...literally designed to scale faster than ranged champs and beat up on them.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I like your post, and I'm interested in extrapolating to a possible solution together.

So, what if Riot buffed towers defenses AND increased AP's contribution to damage? Do you think that would at least be a step in the right direction?

I honestly don't have a problem with marksmen being the best class for taking towers, but maybe if others had a bit more turret taking power, it would even out a little better? I'm still kind of stuck on how to make other classes like fighters or juggernauts able to contribute to that; you can't add health scaling to tower damage, for instance, because it would encourage everyone to just build tank and burn towers while the enemy team took too long to kill them.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

I like your post, and I'm interested in extrapolating to a possible solution together.

So, what if Riot buffed towers defenses AND increased AP's contribution to damage? Do you think that would at least be a step in the right direction?

Honestly, that's the first thing I thought when I finished the post. Make towers beefier and make it so certain types of ap attacks can hurt turrets. Maybe beams and aimed skill shots or something? The point would be that you wouldn't JUST lean on AA damage to work down turrets.

I honestly don't have a problem with marksmen being the best class for taking towers, but maybe if others had a bit more turret taking power, it would even out a little better? I'm still kind of stuck on how to make other classes like fighters or juggernauts able to contribute to that; you can't add health scaling to tower damage, for instance, because it would encourage everyone to just build tank and burn towers while the enemy team took too long to kill them.

I think the best bet to diversify the whole thing would be to get mages of some kind to be able to work on turrets. Melee ADs already make for the game's primary split pushers, anyhow. There's still room to shake things up on the ap side, though.

Outside of that: It's fine that marksmen are the premiere tower takers. They're just TOO good at it in comparison to anyone else, to the point where you gotta have one to match the other one.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

That would be a huge change to the game, but I'm at least in favor of them testing that.

I think it would be easy to just draw the line at point & click abilities. Skillshots can't hit towers. Might require tweaks to several mages, just because many of them don't have anything targeted, but I would willing to test it if it were up to me.

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