Here's the Game: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1526762959/208615052
We couldn't seige, because ziggs would just instaclear waves. We couldn't teamfight, because mundo was way better at disruption than xin. We couldn't split, because mundo.
It probably didn't help that our xin didn't connect for 5 minutes into the game.
Anybody have advice on what I could have done better?
Teenbus1 votesLooks to me like you lost when your bot lane lost; they did a great job keeping up in CS though. With those comps, your main hope was punishing their bot lane so hard that they had to respond.
Worgslarg1 votesAll that I can think of would be to pick off mundo and then split.
Hoi Im Temmo3 votesOne does not simply "Pick off" mundo XD
Especially that build.
Hoi Im Temmo1 votesMy suggestion is probably not what you want to hear....but basically, you need one of two things - better pushing power, or better cc. I will talk about both, one at a time.
Pushing power:
Ryze: He had a seraphs, so a second Tear would be possible to stack - should have gotten a manamune. Would have increased damage as much as frozen heart, but more ad = more tower damage.
Xin: Ok, im sure the 5 minutes hurt xin - but a 40 minute game and he didnt finish feral flare? thats a problem. at some point, he needs to just say "sorry guys, im not useful right now" and power farm for like 4-8 minutes.
Cait: the build is fine, but needs to be more fed. Great cs kept her in the fight, but 3/6 is hard for a carry.
Nami: I would have suggested an Ardent Censer
to speed up cait and xin attacks to shove turrets faster.
Karma: Not much can be said. Tried hard, but from the looks of things, had to wade into every fight, so once the enemy scattered, not much to do. Possibly build a nashors if you REALLY need the pushing power, but....thats a lot of funds for less team fight capability.
CC: You have Ryze's root, Nami bubble and wave, and karmas chain for heads up lock downs (cait traps kinda, but hard to use mid fight) Except for fiddle, their team is fairly mobile or has reliable ways to escape. So in the end, actually catching any of them will be difficult at best, and between ziggs and jin, they have some great wave clear.
Final point on both: Mundo (ok, as a mundo main, i have a soft spot for him, but really) The main problem is that mundo is one of the split push GODS in this game, but also incredible at disruption (as you mentioned.) you cant burst him, locking him down is hard, and on top of al of that, he has the best sustain ever in game. He doesnt really have counter picks (there are technically counters, but mundo, depending on skill, can get around them)
Once you see a mundo picked, you need mobility and split pushing. Above that however: your team has NO IGNITE. To be honest, I'm impressed you killed him at all after level 6.
Hyrum Graff1 votesYeah I messed up on the ignite. I forgot to change my summoners. (Hence I got morello's)
Hoi Im Temmo1 votesmorello's was a good buy, but that means sacrificing other items for it, (censor wouldn't have been bad on you either, come to think on it) and also meant you alone could focus down mundo, if you can catch him. A couple cleavers at you, and I would expect he was gone.
DocRedgrave1 votesIt looks as though each lane was counterpicked quite hard. Judging from their teamcomp this is what I think you should have done:
I hope my suggestions helped!
TheKaymon1 votesRyze should have immediately rushed Morellonomicon.
Absolutely not. You could argue that it might be a good item to buy in that game, but rushing that item would be terrible for Ryze.
I don't have anything against the rest of your advice, but I needed to refute this point.
DocRedgrave1 votesWell the sooner he built that advantage the better. Otherwise packing ignite would have worked too.
Lelefski1 votesEstablish vision control in your jungle and then expand map control into the enemy's jungle. Try to pick people off and then force objective while you have the numbers advantage.
MrBuffington1 votesI'm going to make a lot of assumptions in my analysis; correct me where I'm wrong, because I don't know how the game actually turned out.
Well, it's hard to tell just by looking at stats; just looking at team comps, their team outscales yours late; Mundo and Ryze both scale well into late, Shaco and Xin Zhao aren't great late game (I'm actually not sure about Xin), but Ziggs>Karma late game, Jinx>Caitlyn late, and Fiddlesticks > Nami as far as damage threats go. You're going to want to win early.
From what I can tell, Ryze was crushing Mundo early, which is good; you seemed to be doing fine vs. Ziggs & Shaco, Caitlyn/Nami seemed to be even in bot lane. As far as gold, every match up remained fairly even for most of the game, except Xin fell really far behind Shaco and never caught up. Cait and Xin had very low damage to champions compared to their match ups. I'm not saying blame them (Xin did disconnect for a while), but it's hard when your jungler is absent early (especially since he went feral flare; he missed out on a lot of farm early) and your DPS (Cait) is having a hard time matching Jinx in terms of damage.
As far as what you personally could have done; Karma is very strong early and mid (as I'm sure you know). Just looking at Ziggs's build, he's running teleport. You're basically not getting his turret; even if you manage to get solo kills on him, he's pretty dead set on not giving up that turret if he's playing Ziggs and running TP. What I also take from this is that this Ziggs is probably pretty cowardly; he's probably just going to hug his turret all game. I'm assuming he's not going to shove his lane out too much since he's afraid of ganks; he seems the type to just sit at turret and clear waves, stalling the game out. Which means, what you want to do is have good ward coverage so you don't get ambushed by Shaco, shove your wave super hard (call Xin to help pressure your wave, shove Ziggs to turret or behind his turret), and go roam. You basically can't take Ziggs's turret; it's hard enough against a regular Ziggs, but he's running teleport; he's never going to be missing from lane, and even if he is, their team outscales yours. You can make much more impact in other lanes than your own. I'll get back to this.
Shaco is an early game jungler, so he's going to be invading and generally causing havoc for Xin Zhao (another reason why it's bad for him to go FF; Shaco is going to be disrupting his farming constantly). If you can keep good vision on your side of the jungle, you and Xin can collapse on Shaco whenever he invades. What you want to try to do is pressure Shaco; don't chase, since he's super tricky and you don't want to over commit, but force him back into his own jungle, where he can't do anything. You need to be keeping track of Shaco, so you know where you can roam and not risk getting counterganked.
What I think is a good rotation here is to force Ziggs out of lane, or just force him under turret. Organize an early-ish four man gank down bot; It's easy for Karma to roam since she has her speed buff. Either Ziggs follows you and you and Xin can just collapse on him (probably won't happen, if he's the cowardly type), or you can successfully roam bot. Ziggs might launch his ult down bot, which you need to watch out for, but that gives you a two minute window to keep trying, unless Ziggs roams too; then kill him. He has lower kill threat since he has no ignite, and he is easier to kill because he has no defensive summoner. What you're trying to do with this rotation is kill bot lane (ideal) or just force them away and take their turret. You go take Dragon, and all four of you take mid turret; no matter how good Ziggs' waveclear is, he can't deal with a four man squad. At this point, you have bot lane control, mid lane control, dragon control, and Shaco's red side jungle. Drop deep wards in Shaco's jungle; that's yours now. Shaco can't do anything if you have good ward control over that; he'll probably focus towards his blue side and top lane (where Ryze is crushing Mundo).
To be continued
MrBuffington1 votesPart 2
Even if Shaco and Mundo have your top outer turret, you can take their bot lane second tier. Keep good ward coverage around you (don't want Fiddlesticks jumping out on you) and you have complete control of Shaco's red side. Keep pushing your map advantage, shove towards mid second tier, and basically the entire jungle is yours. You can take top outer tier easily (if Ryze hasn't already taken it) and just take top second tier, take dragon when it's up. and the entire map is yours.
General themes are out rotation and map control; you don't want to head to head siege vs. Ziggs, but if my hunch about his playstyle based on summoner spell choice is correct, rotating around the map forces him to respond, pushing him outside his comfort zone. Shaco has great map control because he has his boxes and his mobility and stealth; you have to beat him at this game, keep track of him in the jungle, out rotate him and take objectives. Map control and good warding is vital vs. Shaco, even more so vs. Shaco and Fiddlesticks. If they make a play somewhere on the map, make a bigger play somewhere else, take an objective, take dragon, turrets, whatever. You can work around picks, but like you said, your teamfight is weaker than theirs. Shaco on the other hand works great at picking people off, so move as a team and he'll have a hard time; you don't want him to ambush you when his team is ready to fight, it just causes too much chaos.
If you can push them to their base, push all their lanes to their base. Ziggs and Jinx have great waveclear, if you only have one lane pushing their base they'll just clear it and you'll have nothing to do. If you have all lanes pushing their base, they can only handle two of them; take the third. Even if Ziggs clears that wave with ult, his ult is two minutes; minions spawn every thirty seconds. If you can keep bot shoving, someone will have to deal with that, which means you can force around Baron. You might not want to actually do Baron, though, unless they're not responding. If you can get a pick, that's good, go back to pushing your lanes. If you get a pick on Shaco, you can probably do Baron if your lanes are pushed and no one else is coming to respond (if they are, you can zone and run interference). If you divide up their team, so only one person is defending an inhib turret, you can probably dive them if Xin is tanky enough. If Mundo is sent to handle the split push or clear a different wave, that's fine, they now have no tank at all. You can Ult+E Xin when he dives for massive AoE damage and a shield. Nami has CC which can really help turn a 4v4 teamfight in your favor. Ideally you take them when you have the numbers advantage, take turret, maybe inhib if you have time, and back out; take neutral objectives (dragon, maybe Baron if you can manage it), base and repeat; you now have one wave auto pushing in your favor (preferably a side wave, since it'll spread them out more). Go pressure your other waves, keep good ward coverage so Shaco/Fiddle can't sneak up on you. The advantage you have is that Karma works incredibly well for helping teammates rotate to objectives because of Ult+E. If Ziggs and Jinx are guarding one turret, go pressure the other, and if they're each guarding one, you can dive one of them and take that turret. Keep pressing your advantage methodically and win the game
The nitty gritty stuff I'm not too great on, but essentially, you want to split their team up, while keeping yours grouped and keeping pressure all around the map. It's difficult vs double teleport and a Ziggs, but it's the best option I can think of. Out rotate them and take control of the map.
"Fight the enemy where they are not" - Sun Tzu
MrBuffington1 votesimls coaching video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAEyJM2P5k
It's an Orianna mid he's coaching, but she's pretty close to Karma (utility mid, decent lane bully, etc), but it's vs a Ziggs, and Mundo top, so perhaps there's something that's relevant here. He doesn't recommend the rotations that I did, since there are more micro elements that he can use to win lane against Ziggs; overall I would trust his advice 100% over mine. Hope it helps