Give fiddlesticks the yi/lucian treatment

BoilTheOil·May 1, 2017·43 votes·3,453 views

Where if his w kills a target it tries to find a new one this would make his clears so much better since he cant really clear raptors/krugs

82 Comments

ºˉ GeMıNıMay 1, 20179 votes

yes, his jungle is garbage. but he has one of the highest WR's in mid lane. use him where he is strong.

RainbowIceeMay 1, 20174 votes

His jungle isnt garbage and with his E he can clear raptors pretty decently also thanks to his W he has a lot of jungle sustain and his ganks are okay but far from the worst. His main problem is his 0 chance at dueling top junglers. He can survive the jungle monsters just fine but he cant survive the other jungles. They kill fiddle with no problem and can jump right out which is why people dont jungle with fiddle. The opressors are far too popular, lee sin would shit on fiddle, so would graves, kha'zix, vi, yi, hecarim, shaco, elise, diana, ivern, this is not even counting the chances of an assasin counter jungling going for that easy vulnerable kill like zed, or talon. A Qss is convenient for them fiddle just gives an excuse to build it that greatly harms fiddle while at no drawback benefits them. So fiddle can work if the team is looking out for him, but in terms of him at the jungle vs the monsters he is far more than ok.

Pendergast891May 2, 20171 votes

Isn't fiddle getting picked to specifically counter ivern in korea?

RainbowIceeMay 2, 20171 votes

Oh I don't watch foreign regions. Is that what they're doing now? I guess fiddle is to become more popular soon then. Which means riot is probably going to nerf the fear again... god dammit.

DisulfiramMay 2, 20171 votes

Fiddle used to be one of the few able to counter Lee, but sadly that's no longer true since Lee's R->Q->Q can 100->0 Fiddle and Fear is not enough to escape Lee. :(

RainbowIceeMay 2, 20172 votes

fear is not even enough to escape graves, happened to me already. Shows up Auto attacks you if you fear him to get away he'll just dash Q > R and you will die. His W does little to no damage to fight him back. Can't get away and can't fight him gg.

BoilTheOilMay 1, 20172 votes

he has a super low playrate in the midlane so idk dude

Lord GalvatronMay 1, 20172 votes

That's because very few people play him and those people basically main him. He still suffers from lack of mobility and constant reliance of Zhonya's Hourglass. His passive update was a step in the right direction but he still suffers from the same problems. If they gave him something that would make him more tanky while standing still it would probably help him out a ton without making him too powerful. They just need to make his strengths more powerful and his counterplay more obvious. They basically did that with Darius and he became the most balanced character in League.

ºˉ GeMıNıMay 1, 20177 votes

fiddle is just fine the way he is. no need to make him any better. be happy with having a busted champ, don't request that it be broken even more. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

RewtMay 1, 20174 votes

? Fid is garbage.... like he literally is trash. He is actually one of the worst junglers in the game.

Honestly they need to make the cooldown reset if it kills a minion/monster

The Lost MarblesMay 1, 201711 votes

{quoted}

? Fid is garbage.... like he literally is trash. He is actually one of the worst junglers in the game.

Honestly they need to make the cooldown reset if it kills a minion/monster

Fiddle actually has a decent winrate in jungle, mid, and support.

Granted, his play rate is low, but I guess that means the people playing him are seeing some success.

RewtMay 1, 20171 votes

He is pretty weak in the jungle sadly. The XP nerfs hit him REALLY hard.

Sp33d Zer0May 1, 20177 votes

He's got the 11/35 spot for junglers right now on win rate. Seems pretty good to me.

DarkHeadgearMay 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=i GEMiN1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qg1wdfyW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-01T04:45:26.424+0000)

fiddle is just fine the way he is. no need to make him any better. be happy with having a busted champ, don't request that it be broken even more. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

"busted" "broken" haha that's why he's so popular in LCS and tier lists and high elo right? ...Right?

ºˉ GeMıNıMay 1, 20175 votes

{quoted}

"busted" "broken" haha that's why he's so popular in LCS and tier lists and high elo right? ...Right?

Middle Fiddlesticks 55.4% 55.4% 5 5 . 4 %

DarkHeadgearMay 1, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=i GEMiN1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qg1wdfyW,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-05-01T13:55:02.138+0000)

Middle Fiddlesticks 55.4% 55.4% 5 5 . 4 %

People don't know how to play against him. Why isn't he picked in high elo? Where is your source from? If it includes bronze-gold the statistic is pointless. He truly isn't good, most mid mages outscale fiddlesticks but they think because he is so off-meta that you can duel him easily then they get shit on and suddenly he is OP. He was NEVER picked in the lcs and he is not often picked in high elo. Pick him versus faker, you will have a 0% winrate.

Baron of BreadMay 1, 20174 votes

Actually he was a high tier support in the LCS a long time ago.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 1, 20171 votes

Tht's just not true. He recently got picked as supp.

DarkHeadgearMay 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tht's just not true. He recently got picked as supp.

Edit: My source's search engine does not work correctly. He has been picked a few times each season and he appears to not do well anyway. He's very niche.

Supreme Senpai69May 1, 20177 votes

They just changed it so that the CD resets if it kills a unit, right?

AakeshMay 1, 201724 votes

[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qg1wdfyW,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-05-01T10:40:30.243+0000)

They just changed it so that the CD resets if it kills a unit, right?

Massive drain on mana to recast the drain though

Supreme Senpai69May 1, 201715 votes

Yea but to let him do it without mana would make him too strong, imo

junglerboy16May 1, 20173 votes

This^

Giving him an ability that auto-retargets on killing a unit only makes sense until you realize a full channel drain can deal up to 900 (+ 225% AP)

JmmanMay 1, 20172 votes

I know you don't understand the difference between dot damage and nukes.

See since you have to stand still and cast. It cost a lot more than other mages spells and in the 5 secs most junglers or mages can recast. See other mages can cast and run. This will cause them to take not damage because range and still do max damage of the spell. Now fiddle has to stand still making him take damage and only ramps up in 5 secs. This is why its called DOT damage = Damage over time.

Now after reading above if I can say why can fiddle one spell do 180 (225%ap) per sec and lee "q" will do 700 damage in that sec.

Quit being a Nub and only makes something sound good to prove your point.

junglerboy16May 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I know you don't understand the difference between dot damage and nukes.

See since you have to stand still and cast. It cost a lot more than other mages spells and in the 5 secs most junglers or mages can recast. See other mages can cast and run. This will cause them to take not damage because range and still do max damage of the spell. Now fiddle has to stand still making him take damage and only ramps up in 5 secs. This is why its called DOT damage = Damage over time.

Now after reading above if I can say why can fiddle one spell do 180 (225%ap) per sec and lee "q" will do 700 damage in that sec.

Quit being a Nub and only makes something sound good to prove your point.

Wow, thanks for being a douche, I needed that, since I am uneducated and don't know how to use my brain.

Drain being a DoT is irrelevant to this discussion, since we're talking about mana expenditure relative to damage output, not how much damage I can deal to a camp per cast. Additionally, you completely disregard the fact that Drain is designed to function in this kind of situation where he channels and takes hits while doing so. That's why it heals him for a large percentage of the damage dealt.

I pointed out the high damage of a fully channeled drain for the sake of reminding everyone that he is already a comparatively mana efficient jungler for the damage and sustain he has. This doesn't mean he isn't mana hungry at times (because he often is) It just means that he trades mana heavy clears for finishing them extremely healthy. The cooldown reset is already a large enough buff that giving it a mana refund would break his clear (unless it were very small refund, at which point I'd argue they should just reduce the mana cost outright).

Maybe it's your turn to quit being a Nub.

JmmanMay 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Drain being a DoT is irrelevant to this discussion

No it isn't. You can't take about the damage then "forget" to talk about the downsides to put it in context. You just flashed BIG LCS NUMBERS and said look that their is broken. Yea my main and favorite champ is down and you want to make him some OP.

Really dude how many times have YOU stood in a full drain. Heck, if you fear drain you get 2 maybe 3 ticks MAX. Forget talking about the mana cost. And you can't tell me other mages don't hit harder. All you have to do is walk back 3 steps to avoid 60 to 80% of the damage.

junglerboy16May 3, 20171 votes

We're talking about clearing jungle, not team fighting/champion combat, so yes, I expect that you're fully channeling your drain on camps.

I'm not saying Fid is broken or OP, I'm saying letting him get a mana refund would be too strong of a buff, and wouldn't fix his larger problems (which I'm sure you understand better than I do). It would be much more appropriate to simply reduce the mana cost of drain (especially at later ranks) than offer any sort of refund. It's a cleaner fix that addresses his mana issues head on.

Alternatively, like what some other people on this thread have suggested, Drain could just cost mana per second, e.g. 20 + (12/14/16/18/20 Mana per second), (still totalling to 80/90/100/110/120 mana for full channel). I think this would also be a fair buff, but it would mostly boost his mid and late game where he is no longer channeling full drains.

I'd appreciate if you stopped being so aggressive, I am trying to have a discussion and you're being combative simply on the grounds that you disagree with my logic.

JmmanMay 3, 20171 votes

It still effects clearing the jungle. When fiddle is draining he can't auto attack or move to reduce damage taken.

Lee can q and do 170 plus 170 plus 8% with 190% ad. Now during these 5 secs lee can also get 3 or so auto attacks in. so that is 340 plus 190%ad and for round number 150 on auto.

340 (190%ad) + 450 + 8% or 400 max on minions.

790 (190%ad) +400 = 1190 before ad vs fiddles 900 pus ap.

This is why I get mad. Sure my lee numbers might be a little off but tell me how that is op as drain. Because drain will be on CD for 3 sec and lee Q will be back up in 2. And fiddles mana doesn't come back like energy does.

We cant have a discussion when you have already made up your mind on the issue. You think it would be too strong but it would only put him up to par with the Meta damage junglers. Then fiddle doesn't have the mobility of these damage junglers. Not to get on the topic that most have reset their auto attack for more damage. All the while Fiddle can drain and waits to do anything else.

Fine we can have a discussion why can some junglers do more damage, have same life stealing, and have mobility then fiddle would be OP to increase his damage or mobility when he is miles below them?

Aggressive isn't the same as disagreeing with you. I don't all CAPS. I just showed you that your wrong and leaving out things.

junglerboy16May 3, 20171 votes

Let me reiterate; Drain is not OP, giving it a mana refund on kill would be too strong (although not game-breakingly so).

I am not comparing him to the most notoriously over tuned and unfairly strong early game jungler out there, because frankly if he matched Lee for what he does he would be OP. Same goes for if you tried to compare him to Graves or any other over tuned FotY champ.

To quote myself:

Giving him an ability that auto-retargets on killing a unit only makes sense until you realize a full channel drain can deal up to 900 (+ 225% AP)

I never said this was OP, I just said it doesn't make sense to give an ability that deals that much damage a mana refund on kill, since it is far too easy to end up never spending mana with that system in place. giving it a mana per second cost or buffing the max mana cost would both be fair options, but a refund would break how the spell works.

DarkPh0enixMay 1, 20171 votes

Could refund 50% of mana or something

DEAXSAMay 2, 20171 votes

or even like, remaining portion of the ability

FiddlesOnTheRoofMay 1, 20172 votes

This is a good point. I was ecstatic for the change, but without blue, his clear is as bad as it's ever been. Itemization has moved away from him, and coupled with his brutal mana costs in his clears, he's very challenging to jungle with

Mr ToastedMay 1, 20172 votes

Maybe it could also refund some mana based on drain time?

Glory ln DeathMay 1, 20172 votes

They could make it cost "X mana per second channeled".

The DeckownerMay 1, 20174 votes

They already made it that his W cd gets partially refunded if target dies before its duration is over.

Sp33d Zer0May 1, 20175 votes

Requires he recast the ability for full mana.

The DeckownerMay 1, 20174 votes

that is why you powerfarm when you have blue buff, and u buy mobiboot so you can recall to get mana and get out on map faster.

PrinceOfStormsMay 2, 20173 votes

Or, give Lucian and Yi the fiddlesticks treatment.

Make them so awkward to play that their playrate is effectively zero.

The Lost MarblesMay 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Or, give Lucian and Yi the fiddlesticks treatment.

Make them so awkward to play that their playrate is effectively zero.

Lucian's passive used to not track a new target if the first shot killed.

It got added because people thought it was clunky when CSing as him, I think. They then made Yi's passive do the same thing a bit later.

logic301May 1, 20172 votes

What is his fear was a charm so the target doesn't run out of his drain range?

An Enemy SutandoMay 1, 20172 votes

Doesn't make sense thematically, and would make him potentially broken

ABlueQuakerMay 1, 20172 votes

He needs a rework anyway tbh. No champion in 2017 should have 2 point-and-click CC's (even lulu's Polymorph is a missile nowadays and can be Dodged/ Windwalled).

JmmanMay 1, 20172 votes

and the crows can't........ I'm wait for it...... yea you don't know what your talking about. (windwall and braum can cancel them)

Daddy AntsMay 1, 20171 votes

Fiddle is fine now.

He has a 53%+ win rate in ALL ELO BRACKETS according to champion.gg in the mid lane He has around a 50-51% win rate in the jungle. He had a 49 - 51% win rate as Support.

JmmanMay 1, 20172 votes

have to look at play rate to take this into context plz. To only put part of the data to try and prove a point is wrong and the same as lying.

DarkHeadgearMay 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Fiddle is fine now.

He has a 53%+ win rate in ALL ELO BRACKETS according to champion.gg in the mid lane He has around a 50-51% win rate in the jungle. He had a 49 - 51% win rate as Support.

Is the sample size large enough? Often it takes enough games with enough players to make sure that the win rate is solid and not still varying. I'll accept your point if the data is reliable.

BotifierMay 1, 20171 votes

Oh I thought you meant buff him buff his favorite item to the point he is overpowered and then remove him from existence after 10 patches of overpoweredness and then proceed to do that to another champion

ºˉ GeMıNıMay 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Oh I thought you meant buff him buff his favorite item to the point he is overpowered and then remove him from existence after 10 patches of overpoweredness and then proceed to do that to another champion

ah splendid, this is the Riot thing to do, right here.

WinterkillMay 1, 20171 votes

Fiddles needs a VGU. Riot Games have already stated this. He honestly could use a Mini-Game update . . . but why bother with that when they have to waste time on Reksai and newer champions.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 1, 20172 votes

That's one thing that actually bothers me. There are champs who are absolutely outdated, toxic/unhealthy for the game or straight up boring and not competitively viable not even remotely against newer champs example being: trynd, kayle, fid, rammus, panth and several others and riot puts so much work into mini updates of champs who are okayish-good like seju, maokai, malz, ryze hehexd and full scale reworks of champs like galio who yes deserved it but had their niche, weren't particularly unhealthy or unplayable.