when anivia's is untouched? I mean i just went against an anivia. i never been this bullied in lane. lost both turrets without even dying a single time. she just insta deletes an entire wave. one after the other with her ult. meanwhile viktor can only delete caster minions right now. and actually have to put a little more effort into waveclearing. and anivia has always had a high winrate
Erockandroll5 votesBecause anivia needs two mana items and blue to do that. While viktor is, "upgrade hex-core, and done."
MunchCrunchLunch5 voteshow about. NO?
blfUvZ8Ybu5 votesClassic Riot things.
Lux is op lets we should be nerf Viktor.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesBetter nerf Sona.
Yorukin4 votesAnivia is ridiculously squishy with only a slow revive passive to her name, has bottom-of-the-barrel mobility, goes through mana like pixie sticks, and can only really burst one person at a time. These are the tradeoffs for her high damage, fantastic utility, and top-tier group control and waveclear.
Viktor has consistently much stronger AoE damage (though with less uptime), much better survivability and dueling power, decent mobility through his Q upgrade, unavoidable harass, and a respectable mana curve. However, his damage is more focused, and his utility is mostly found within his W. Fact of the matter is, his E is just a little too important and bursty right now.
Besides, you're comparing a basic ability to an ultimate. Apples and oranges, and all that.
Ariel the Cruel1 votes
Apples
and
oranges?
Omega T33mo3 votesbecause it can two shot anyone
MunchCrunchLunch4 votesno shit most burst mages can two shot you. and some can one shot you. whats new to that?
Omega T33mo2 votesk
Ariel the Cruel4 votesViktor is a lot more versatile than most of them. Viktor's laser is AoE. Most burst mages use their entire kit, Omega's claim was it (the laser) can 2-shot anyone.
Not saying I agree or disagree. But that's the difference.
qetzel1 votesAnivia can only two shot one person before waiting for her cooldowns and she has to be at a closer range to do so.
Don't just compare one or two aspects of champions - in this case, burst and waveclear. You need to consider the champions as a whole.
LostFr0st3 votesThey actually nerfed the range on her ulti a few patches ago and they reduced her frosted debuff timer. Plus, she gets her waveclear at level 6.
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesviktor can't waveclear well until he gets his first E upgrade. which is at around level 6 too. what is your point?
LostFr0st2 votesThat she needs to sit beside her ulti for that waveclear.
Channeling it.
Can't walk away.
Not point click-drag forget.
Billy VoHagen3 votesAnd it costs a shit ton of mana.
Mat7itan1 votesAnd has an insane amount of burst, but I see how apples can be compared to oranges.
Itadaki Seieki3 votesBecause once you upgrade your Hex Core ONCE, and augment E, with one or two Doran's, you clear a wave. Edit; You can get your hexcore at 6-8 depending on CS, but Anivia still needs AP Items to do it.
Meanwhile Anivia has to get six, and a decent amount of AP before that can even be a thing.
Hayaishi24 votes[{quoted}](name=Bard and Soul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QeM04ozx,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-02-23T02:50:17.048+0000)
Because once you upgrade your Hex Core ONCE, and augment E, with one or two Doran's, you clear a wave. Edit; You can get your hexcore at 6-8 depending on CS, but Anivia still needs AP Items to do it.
Meanwhile Anivia has to get six, and a decent amount of AP before that can even be a thing.
"Decent amount of AP"
Anivia literally only needs ROA to do so, the same item she needs to hit a squishy for half their HP with her undodgeable R+E BS.
At least Viktor requires more finesses to play, Anivia is as faceroll as a mage can get.
Ariel the Cruel3 votesAt least Viktor requires more finesses to play, Anivia is as faceroll as a mage can get.
About as squishy and immobile as a mage can get too.
Hayaishi22 votes[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QeM04ozx,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-02-23T03:33:35.827+0000)
About as squishy and immobile as a mage can get too.
<ROA
<Squishy
Choose one
Ariel the Cruel2 votesRoA. Revive Passive. Still Squishy.
Hayaishi22 votes[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QeM04ozx,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-23T03:40:44.179+0000)
RoA. Revive Passive. Still Squishy.
300 bonus HP is not squishy.
On top of the fact that she can easily deal with any Assassin or fighter that dives her.
Baron of Bread3 votesHow much have you played Anivia?
Anidan5 votesEvidently not much if thinks Anivia isn't squishy because she has 300 bonus HP.
Ariel the Cruel3 votesDoes that assassin not have burst? And are they 3 levels down? And give Anivia advance notice they were coming?
Yes, her Q->R->E combo can come out pretty fast. But most assassins burst her before it even matters.
Also, Anivia has the lowest HP in the game at level 1. The second lowest at level 18. Yes, that 300 health helps her a lot. But it puts her roughly on par with Draven and slightly above Kog'maw (both using only base stats).
EDIT: Just looked it up for kicks (wiki). Even with RoA, Anivia still has less health than. . . Akali, Fiora, Fizz, Jhin, Kha'Zix, Master Yi, Miss Fortune, Quinn, Rengar, Shaco, Talon (and more). All of whom have noticeably more mobility than Anivia. Most of whom can insta-dead her in under a second.
Old Man Teeto1 votesRevive passive, still far more durable than the vast majority of mages due to that.
Anivia IS the most immobile mage, with lowest base MS in game at 325 and no form of mobility spells.
Kog'maw, Zyra, and Ashe are the only others at that Movespeed that have zero forms of increased mobility either.
EcchiOtakuTM3 votesShe has to dump mana to do so while viktor doesn't.
Viktor has alot more burst then anivia ever will too.
Dominick Destine2 votesBecause Anivia sucks and Viktor doesn't.
redniwediS2 votesI'm a firm believer that each champion should be balanced without regard to other champions.
I like Viktor, and I'd be happy to join a discussion about his waveclear, but only so long as the discussion is about Viktor. You seem more interested in making comparisons than talking about problems and solutions.
Ariel the Cruel2 votesOk, I'm curious. How would you balance champions in a vacuum?
Are we going to establish a point system for damage, CC, mobility, and name length; then distribute points like some D&D character?
Baron of Bread1 votesI think that sounds more like a GURPS character than a D&D character. D&D doesn't go through a point buy system for anything other than ability scores, and only then if you use the point buy variant rules.
/end nerding
qetzel3 votesHe is saying that champions should be allowed to have different strengths and weaknesses. Viktor has enough other strengths that nerfing his waveclear may be the appropriate thing to do. It is wrong to say that because another champion has brilliant waveclear that Viktor should also have brilliant waveclear. You aren't balancing in a vacuum, you are making sure that the champion Viktor is balanced.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesYou aren't balancing in a vacuum, you are making sure that the champion Viktor is balanced.
Now, I'm not disagreeing with the general sentiment. Champions need their own strengths and weaknesses to make them unique. He specifically said:
I'm a firm believer that each champion should be balanced without regard to other champions.
But Champions are balanced relative to each other. Otherwise you end up with Old Veiger's instant stun, Old Poppy's everything, and Susan. Riot simply doesn't have a system in place to balance champions in a vacuum. The closest they've ever come was the Renekton bar for top lane.
redniwediS1 votesEach champion, when it is designed, should be designed with other champions in mind.
However, balancing is something that comes later. I like how Riot handled Silences a while back. They set certain rules for the Silence mechanic and removed all silences that did not fit that rule.
Instead of doing some character specific point system like D&D has you set up a list of rules, and balance champions based on how closely they follow those rules. All champions are looked at relative to the rules, rather than to each other. It's a pretty common way of thinking among those who hate power creep.
I'll admit I'm pretty bad at explaining my thinking, but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesI understand what you are saying. My point is: to the extent of the information released by Riot, there is no such set of rules for balancing champions as a whole. The closest they've had is when they established the Renekton bar. "All top lane champions should be a skill match-up for Renekton" (or something like that).
redniwediS1 votesI'm not saying that is how Riot is doing. I think that is how they should do it, but they definitely don't do it that way.
In all honesty my original point was that the OP was really just complaining about Anivia, rather than actually trying to discuss Viktor and his problems.
Baron of Bread2 votesWho were you playing that Anivia could bully in lane? I think the only person I can come up with that Anivia can bully is Akali and maybe Talon.
Ariel the Cruel2 votesis Akali and maybe Talon.
Talon is a bit hit or miss. But just about everyone bullies Akali early game.
Starfish H2 votesI love how quick the board is to change on their opinions on champs. Remember when people were like "Anivia is a hard to play champ who is all about mana management and positioning and learning how to use her whole kit"? Now people are like "Anivia is such brain dead champ with easy to use abilities who can wave clear better than any other champ" Just because your champ got nerfed doesn't mean you should compare it to another. Anivia might wave clear with her Ult but she is forced to use a bunch of mana to use it and has the option to either poke and miss a minion or 2, or wave clear but costing half her mana bar. Viktor can do both with one item and one ability in 2 seconds and easily get the mana back.
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesanivia main?. this is the first thread i ever mentioned anivia in. and tbh shes just one of those champs that always seem to do well.
Starfish H2 votesNo I don't main Anivia I haven't even bought her yet, but I'm not talking about you I'm just saying the boards in general.
WalkingInACircle1 votesI'm pretty sure your ult can waveclear too.
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesam pretty sure its cooldown longer than the ottoman empire era.
qetzel3 votesThe point was that Anivia gets such potent waveclear on her ultimate because it is an ultimate... It is supposed to be better than a basic ability.
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesviktor isn't a lane bully. anivia is the MIDLANE bully.
Old Man Teeto1 votesThey touched Viktor's wave clear to preserve his strong team fighting.
Anivia on the flip side has a harder time hitting her Q than Viktor has with her E, and her ultimate is easier to punish either by moving or CC'ing to break it than Viktor's "Fire and chase" ultimate.
This was a light tap so Viktor actually has to use his other strengths and champions who are designed primarily as wave clear master's (Anivia, Ziggs, Xerath) are worth possibly picking instead of a universally better champion in every aspect of the game.