OOF
I also noticed that on r/AatroxMains Subreddits they were talking about buying 
due to how big-ish the nerf was on the Q minion damage.
https://u.gg/lol/champions/aatrox/build https://i.imgur.com/RnrDd2E.png[]
Hayaishi255 votesPro play ruins yet another champion? How long are we going to keep putting up with this?
Ragnaveil41 votesIdk. This is the same balance team that considered buffing Riven.
Moody P13 votesblaming pro play and not the champion for being broken in the hands of people who play the game right
Hayaishi216 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRy4EbIN,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2019-09-12T00:52:00.908+0000)
blaming pro play and not the champion for being broken in the hands of people who play the game right
Yes because pro play literally has no weight on me or 99% of the player base. So who cares if they are best? They play an entirely different game.
Velzard of Koz2 votesHis point is that it's first and foremost Aatrox being bad design. If you actually mean to tell me it's okay for Riot to release and keep bad design just because only specific players can see it, then 80% of Gameplay Board complains (connected to design) are irrelevant.
Ragnaveil5 votesEven though the bad design was mainly the free GA? The thing they already removed? How is his passive sustain any different from Vlad just spamming Q 24/7? Or Nasus just hitting minions? Its a fucking double standard because outside of Darius, they dont want any other juggernaut to be a juggernaut. You only need to look at Morde to see that.
Velzard of Koz2 votesHe is bad design exactly because he needs perfect application of combo to be relevant, which makes him broken in pro with few players paid to master the champs, bad in soloq with shitton of random people. His sweetspots around which his entire kit revolves, with his W E being underwhelming aid to hit them and his ult simple defense/power steroid. You either make it satisfying to use which means it's overbearing in good hands or you make him proper champ only If he hits them which makes him caster minion in bad hands.
Also how Morde isn't Juggernaut? Immobile (only has stickyness) and easily kiteable damage carry with single-focus defense. That's Juggernaut.
Ragnaveil1 votesMorde's damage is handicapped as shit. He cant lane bully and he doesn't scale.
Velzard of Koz1 votesIt's not handicapped, it's heavily loaded into his passive and depends on AP and items and is anti-Tank oriented. He is supposed to build AP carry, because Juggernauts are carries, they have AP+HP items for that. He wouldn't be the first champ to be depending on items to be viable, not a good design, but doesn't make him not Juggernaut. He can steal defensive stats with ult. The little extra Armor+MR from ult + HP build + Zhonyas (his passive works during it) and he can survive long enough in most fights to accumulate good damage against tanks in teamfights. That's his job.
Not saying he is good design, have ADC with slight peel and he will suffer (then again that was him also before rework) and he is extremly centered around item synergy, but none of this feels like it makes him not Juggernaut.
youngdrago2 votesBut what you just described a battle mage. It’s more appropriate to compare mord to swain or Vlad then it is Darius or Illaoi. Battlemages suffer from a lack of good items which is really apparent in Mord.
ImTheJuggernauty4 votesEven though the bad design was mainly the free GA? The thing they already removed? How is his passive sustain any different from Vlad just spamming Q 24/7? Or Nasus just hitting minions? Its a fucking double standard because outside of Darius, they dont want any other juggernaut to be a juggernaut. You only need to look at Morde to see that.
garen juggernaut. illaoi juggernaut. urgot juggernaut. Mundo juggernaut. Nas juggernaut. Yorick juggernaut (sorta, but...). Like darius is not the only juggernaut that actually lives the fantasy.
Romans VI XXIII1 votesExcept it's not nor ever has been his GA. It has always been the absurd amount of CC with High damage.
Ragnaveil3 votesBullshit. People complained about the Revive ALL THE TIME.
MaskedMadness5 votesi just want to mention its not hard to dodge aatroxs Q's 0_0.
most people just dont make the effort
Romans VI XXIII3 votesA single 1 by it self no, but he has a dash, slow, and pull to help lock you down. Typically if you get hit by 1 CC you get hit by a majority of the rest.
Sry, but having 3 AoE knock ups, slow, and a pull in 2 abilities is poor champion design. Cause they either are OP or completely uselss.
Also he is so strong on teams because of the sheer amount of follow up CC he can do. If you get hit by something as simple as a slow he can almost always land all of his CC.
Also, besides Q1 the rest r not easy to dodge unless u have a dash off CD.
MaskedMadness3 votesif its so op then why do i beat 90% of aatroxs i face. although i do play rengar top and obviously can easily avoid his Q i still play other champions into aatrox and still dodge most of his KIT.
one time even, i played rengar into aatrox and stomped him. the very next game i chose aatrox and had to face a Rengar. i stomped him as well despite rengar being a huge counter to him.
His W is mostly used IF he lands his first q and even then if you walk to the side like you are supposed to its not that bad. and as for the chain CC. that is unfortunately just a strat that we cannot shake off. it doesnt even have to be aatrox because almost anyone with CC can easily chain CC with their team. talking about his follow up CC is just nitpicking really since mostly any cc champ can follow up
I don't know how you fight Aatrox but what i notice is people run from him in fear. Aatroxs weakest spot is right at him. if he ults you can walk up to him and negate loads of his potential damage. also he is kinda like Riven in the sense that you fight them when they use their stuff mostly because its kinda a trading based Kit. Aatrox will try to trade/sustain over you. if you continue to fight him after he uses his combo then you will more likely trade even with him or do more damage.
regardless of any of that. as i said before. he really isnt that hard to fight if you put effort into dodging his Q's and studying
I memba balance 3 votesyes. let's balance a game played by MILLIONS to specifically cater to the hundreds of pros. It's not even the fucking champions in a solo setting that are broken. they are broken because they are mic'ed up and practice together to maximize their potential in coordinated play. Galio is the absolute best example of that. complete dogshit in soloqueue, but because of his roam potential with R and when he still had the ability to W channel+Flash AoE taunt, he was godlike in pro-play. In a strictly soloqueue sense, they obliterated Aatrox. I don't even play the champion and as a GP player Aatrox can kind of dick me, but I still don't think he deserved what they just did to him.
MaskedMadness2 votes[{quoted}](name=I memba balance ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRy4EbIN,comment-id=000300010005,timestamp=2019-09-12T21:12:16.793+0000)
yes. let's balance a game played by MILLIONS to specifically cater to the hundreds of pros. It's not even the fucking champions in a solo setting that are broken. they are broken because they are mic'ed up and practice together to maximize their potential in coordinated play. Galio is the absolute best example of that. complete dogshit in soloqueue, but because of his roam potential with R and when he still had the ability to W channel+Flash AoE taunt, he was godlike in pro-play. In a strictly soloqueue sense, they obliterated Aatrox. I don't even play the champion and as a GP player Aatrox can kind of dick me, but I still don't think he deserved what they just did to him.
thats what ive been saying. The biggest thing pro teams have, aside from the skill , that we dont have is a communication system and coordination
since riot just will not make team voice a thing community play vs pro play is completely different. like imagine the amount of brain focus you can keep if you could simply say insert laner is missing as you continue to farm and not need to ping. not to mention the abiltity to state your intentions for ganks, who you focus in a fight, etc. those things you just cant do in chat
SiG DxD1 votespro play is dozens players
normal/rank players are dozen of millions
riot be like [slayer-jinx-catface]
Saezio32 votesMean while Kai'sa gets a slap on the wrist.
Top pick in soloq AND pro play. but we don't mind that now do we rito?
LatetotheRace5 votesNah, we don't mind the prestige skin sales, why do you ask? -rito
Wolfeur5 votesAatrox also has a prestige skin…
LatetotheRace2 votesAnd which do you honestly believe has sold more.
Ifneth1 votesThis myth was debunked by a Redditor long ago: champion skin and balance decisions do not affect each other.
MaskedMadness2 voteslucian got buffed when the high noon skin came out.
rengar got a buff around pretty kitty skin
and im sures there is many more i just dont feel like doing the research. im pretty sure khazix and lee sin are apart of that
Ifneth1 votesThing is, he actually did the research. Here’s the link.
MaskedMadness3 votesriven is getting an absurb buff. aswell as a skin.
that data/research quite frankly doesnt mean much because its skewed. what i mean is, of course they dont give skins to champions they buff every single time they do it. but they definitely do it on purpose when they do. everyone and their mother have been complaining about how despite the nerfs, riven is still top tier. and then they decide to buff her... near when they are releasing a skin? i do not think its a coincidence that they buffed a champion that doesnt need it for sure around when she is getting a skin
not to mention the earlier khazix Q buff when he didnt need one. I say this because with worlds or whatever coming that huge chroma skin he has will be available again.
Ifneth1 votesIt’s not skewed research. He went over literally every skin release and the balance changes surrounding it. There was zero correlation between getting a skin and getting a buff, since although sometimes champs got buffs and skins at once, they just as often got nerfs and skins. It happened just this patch.
The reason you think they do it ‘on purpose’ is confirmation bias. The human mind evolved to see patterns, especially ones left by other humans, even if they might not be there. Better to avoid that bush because a predator or rival might be inside than to walk through and get killed. So, when you see a champion get a buff and a skin, there’s a fundamental temptation to think, ‘There’s Rito doing it again!’
When champions get buffs and nerfs with no skins, or get a skin and then a nerf, since it doesn’t fit the narrative of patterns left by humans, our minds literally ignore that evidence. And the more neutral evidence we see, the stronger our convictions become. We can get trapped in echo chambers of our own making.
So we have to start with the evidence and go from there rather than try to guess what’s true and find evidence for it, or else wind up thinking that Meddler’s telling the Balance team to hold up on changes so Skins can get some more cash in the door.
If that were true, then why would Lux and Ezreal not constantly be top-tier picks rather than regularly middle of the pack, often worse?
MaskedMadness1 votesIt’s not skewed research. He went over literally every skin release and the balance changes surrounding it. There was zero correlation between getting a skin and getting a buff, since although sometimes champs got buffs and skins at once, they just as often got nerfs and skins. It happened just this patch.
The reason you think they do it ‘on purpose’ is confirmation bias. The human mind evolved to see patterns, especially ones left by other humans, even if they might not be there. Better to avoid that bush because a predator or rival might be inside than to walk through and get killed. So, when you see a champion get a buff and a skin, there’s a fundamental temptation to think, ‘There’s Rito doing it again!’
When champions get buffs and nerfs with no skins, or get a skin and then a nerf, since it doesn’t fit the narrative of patterns left by humans, our minds literally ignore that evidence. And the more neutral evidence we see, the stronger our convictions become. We can get trapped in echo chambers of our own making.
So we have to start with the evidence and go from there rather than try to guess what’s true and find evidence for it, or else wind up thinking that Meddler’s telling the Balance team to hold up on changes so Skins can get some more cash in the door.
If that were true, then why would Lux and Ezreal not constantly be top-tier picks rather than regularly middle of the pack, often worse?
TL;DR: i dont believe im biased. there are some connections. stuff about riven
i dont think im having this bias you talk about because im not ignoring the buffs that dont come with skins just because. im ignoring them simply because, first releasing a skin on every buff you patch is sketchy and scummy. secondly, it is obviously unrealistic for a skin to be made for every champion that gets a buff in every patch.
(quick note: lux and ezreal have almost always been top tier and safe/easy picks. and lux is still a top tier op pick. i dont know about ezreal.{further sidenote: annie also has tons of skins and is still an OP pick. not that it really matters to this but im just pointing it out})
as for people getting nerfs while obtaining a skin is apart of the thing i mentioned early somewhat in which if they always buffed and gave a skin that would be scummy. regardless of intentions of trying to hide something or not champions get nerfed when the community outlashes. for instance the cancelled riven buff that was going to come with the new skin. people complained so they canceled it. if Riot truly believed it was a buff Riven NEEDED they would have released the buff+skin. essentially im saying they saw that if they let that buff happen everyone would catch on to them.
before you call BS on that last statement. think about how the balance team is supposed to work. they need to take lots of time discussing,testing,re-testing,more discussing. you get the idea. and somehow they come up with the uber buff? for riven?. what i just said is kinda straying from what i wanted to say but basically the balance team takes lots of time to decide this whatever needs X balance. they wouldnt listen to the outcry if they "knew" this would balance X champ. the buff would still be released.
Ifneth1 votesPlenty of champions get: buffed with no skin, nerfed with no skin, buffed with a skin, and nerfed with a skin. And as that Redditor found by looking at every skin release, getting a skin makes a champion no more or less likely to get buffed or nerfed. Once you look at all the evidence, there are no connections.
Lux and Ezreal are inherently safe and frequently receive skins; Xerath and Sivir are also inherently safe but do not. None of them will be reworked into an unrecognizably risky champion, since all their mains would stop playing them. Lux and Ezreal have high pick rates regardless of meta because they are human, attractive, young, and relatable, just like Yasuo appeals to ‘edgy anime fans’.
The balance team will make bad decisions sometimes, but people generally don’t criticize every change of every patch. That’s pretty good performance. The perception problem arises when a polarizing champion gets controversial buffs alongside a skin.
The only way to prevent that problem would be to either stop working on controversial champions, enraging the community; render them unrecognizable, making their mains quit; or release their skins long before or after controversial balance changes that are ultimately impossible to predict.
So Rito just throws up its hands, farts in someone’s face, and goes about its day.
Cat on Roids v25 votesYou guys seem to be blind deaf and generally lacking all basic senses to understand that ADC is the golden boy of the game and it will never be outside the spotlight for more than 1/3 of a season.
They won't rework the tumor of a mechanic that is rightclicking and they will never do the same changes to adcs as they do to everything else.
Saezio2 votesI don't mind, or rather, I have come to terms with Riot always forcing marksmen down the throat of every team. What I do not understand is why does KAISA need to be the busted one? While her counters are always getting nerfeds whiles she doesn't.
I respect people that play lucian or Draven or generally early game Marksmen. They are taking a risk. I prefer seeing those, and in such a fast paced game, they should be king, not a markswoman supposed to be late game. Kai'sa should have win/pick rates close to Kog'maw and sivir (in pro play).
Ifneth1 votesWe regularly see non-Marksmen bottom lanes, from the ladder to the highest tiers of pro play. Other classes are about as popular but just more spread out, since Fighters can play Top and Jungle, Mages can play Mid and Support, Assassins can play Mid and Jungle, and Tanks though less popular can play Top, Jungle, and Support. Almost all Marksmen are Bottom, which therefore has a much higher proportion of them.
Saezio2 votesRegularly? really? Other classes are about as popular... Really? Maybe assassins in soloq but I would bet my right (and best btw) testicle that the percentage of games with 2 marksmen (across both teams) is higher than any other class by at least 15%.
Be it bruisers,enchanters,mages,assassins,tanks,juggernauts,skirmishers ANYTHING. (across all tiers of play)
And, other than perkz and the garen/yuumi and sona/taric/tahm which pro have you seen play non marksmen botlaners in the bottom lane regularly?
P.S. I said I have made my peace with marksmen being given a lane almost exclusively, what I don't get is why can't we at least have 8-10 marksmen that are of the same tier at least.
P.S.2 Riot have made the bot lane a Marksman dominated role for 8 maybe even 9 years, changing it now would make ADC mains whine, and to an extent that is understandable, so I get why they are given preferential treatment to other classes.
Hot LeBlanc Yuri12 votesGood.
Ragnaveil17 votesWhy? Because he was "broken"? Where was that talk when Riven was the Omega of Toplane? Oh thats right, everyone looked at the toplaners like they were dumb out of their minds that Riven was "broken".
Zed genius1 votesWhere was that talk when Riven was the Omega of Toplane?
There were at least 4 daily posts about riven being broken
Ragnaveil2 votesMainly from Top mains. It took her to be absolute bullshit for the rest of the community to catch on.
Accenix9 votesWoah a champ that takes skill has a low winrate? Shocker. People are just sad they cant faceroll on him anymore
Zeyphel19 votesYour highest played champions are Qiyana, Akali, Pyke and Yuumi. It is weird that you abuse broken champions and faceroll everytime, yet you somehow are so shameless to complain about faceroll champions.
Pyke has past 50% WinRate and one of the highest PickRates. Shouldn't he, by your logic, be sitting at 42% WinRate? The amount of Hypocrisy here is past god level.
Edit: 51% WinRate with 16.1% PickRate. No nerfs whatsoever.
Fear the Kayn1 votesHe really just needs a mini rework at this point.
Düff McWhalen17 votes[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRy4EbIN,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-09-12T00:12:36.807+0000)
He really just needs a mini rework at this point.
He's had two since his actual rework :\
Arakadia6 votesIts honestly a joke now how frequently Riot reworks a champion and they end up needing lots of major changes after anyways.
Aatrox Airlines1 votesMini rework doesnt cut it. If his q stays as it is, he cant be balanced. A full revert would probably be the best option here
BLIGHTBRINGER2 votes[{quoted}](name=Aatrox Airlines,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRy4EbIN,comment-id=00080002,timestamp=2019-09-12T07:47:27.312+0000)
Mini rework doesnt cut it. If his q stays as it is, he cant be balanced. A full revert would probably be the best option here
As much as I hate to say it but the only way I think he could ever be less abusive in the pro play scene is if they remove the Q knock up mechanic entirely and make the Q animation faster to compensate it so he's still viable in SoloQ.
But with such changes it will allow people to attack him or use abilities on him if he hits them with his sweetspots. So honestly I don't know what would be the best thing to do anymore. I honestly just wish he could stop being nerfed and be left as he is.
As someone else said he's not incredibly op, he's just a safe pick to blind pick with and just generally flexible. He can almost be part of the Specialist Role (Champs like Teemo, Kayle are part of this role).
The Specialist role is, basically a role of Champions who are basically good with any comp and offer advantages for every comp. They specialise in offering Zone Control mostly (Teemo R, Zilean Q, Aatrox Q stuff like this).
Aatrox Airlines1 votesthey cant leave him being rampant in pro. he had number 1 presence in pro if im not mistaken.
im rooting for a revert. i know not many people agree with me on this one but i believe this is the healthiest solution.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesRiot never reverted a complete VGU and most definitely never will. They invested way too many ressources in updating this champion to just press the "fuck go back" button.
And reverting it actually wouldn't work aesthetically. Do you want to slap Aatrox old kit on his new model? That would require quite alot of work.
Aatrox Airlines1 votesno, just replace the current files with his old files and fix the bugs that may occur.
sure, resources have been invested, time has been spent. but you cant fix the champion as he is. either rework him again or revert. reverting would just take less resources to do.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesThey surely will never just delete the updated visuals.... Aatrox fits visually way better in the established Darkin thematic now.
Aatrox Airlines1 votesI agree, they surely wont delete the files. Thry will just archive them.
I dont think he fits better. New aatrox doesnt really sell the "living weapon" thing as much as rhaast does imo. With some model tweaks, old aatrox could definitely fit in
