Should a support have more CS than the adcs?

NuggeTech·Jan 24, 2017·10 votes·2,241 views

Hey guys! I am a support main. But I am trying to main other roles. Recently, I played a game a ADC. I was MF and my support Morg. In the lane, my support would constantly AA the minions, making it harder to last hit. And when in a bad trade would save herself and not me. Towards the end of the game, she went full AP and bought Rabodan's and Ludens Echo instead of the traditional support items. When I told her constantly to get support items as we had zero survivability in the game. She would constantly say that she has higher CS than me, due to which I did horrible in the game. And when I would point out that because she took my CS, I got reported. Now I am at a lower elo, so I way below average and would obviously not know more than the other experienced players. I wanted to ask whether I was in the right of telling her to buy support items or whether I was wrong.

53 Comments

what you deserveJan 24, 201712 votes

only ask once for them to buy support items, if your support wants to go full damage then that's just their playstyle

support stealing your cs in lane phase is not ok and shouldn't ever happen

NuggeTechJan 24, 20172 votes

Precisely, and now I am worried I might get a ban because he/she was getting help from our top laner. I can understand supports going full damage as I tend to do with Sona, but having no redemption , not even a sightstone. That's just pushing it. And I highly doubt going rod of ages or fricking echo is right. BTW at the end of the game the i had 136 cs and she 111

RavenhaleJan 24, 20173 votes

RoA is good on Morg. I typically run her with Spellthief at the start. Follow up with Sightstone and Boots. Then build RoA before finishing either of those to get that 10 minute timer going.

There's no need to take CS unless your ADC is dead, roaming, or minions are dying to the tower. A single point in Soil is enough to proc TLD and should not kill any minion waves.

If they have threatening AP, I will follow with an Abyssal Scepter after I complete Watcher's and Ionian Boots. With the RoA and MR, you should have enough durability to tank an initiation (or counter one) for your team.

Redemption is very meh on Morg. The boost to Black Shield is negligible since it's primary function is to cancel out a CC ability. You'd only be getting it for the sake of having that active, which delays buying things that allow you to be more useful to your team. As far as Morg is concerned, its only value is 10% CDR. I'd argue Warmog's or Zhonya's is a better 10% CDR item for a Support Morg.

No idea what your Morg was doing, since Luden's is such a meh item on her even as a Mid Laner.

ForFoxSakesJan 24, 20172 votes

ROA is crap on morg and takes way too long to charge up especially as support. The passive does very little for her when her passive is already spellsteal to sustain. With her longer CDs you'd get A LOT more out of CDR.

If you're going to be low on AP items as support, zhonya and liandries will heavily be the priority ones. Saying redemption is meh shows how little you know

RavenhaleJan 24, 20171 votes

Of course I'm going to say Redemption is meh because I have the health from RoA.

My first three items usually are RoA, Watchers and Ionian Boots (2700 + 2200 + 900) so I have 20% CDR and 300 health/300 Mana/60AP that will increase over ten minutes.

For the same gold, you can have what? Redemption? You can't have both Redemption and Zhonya. Assuming you build Ionian too, the most you will have is a 10% CDR advantage. If you build any other boots... well your CDR argument is gone. I don't see an early game advantage (odd thing to say when RoA is being discussed), but I do like the Redemption/Zhonya combination. If you build each piecemeal, you could have your whole 40% CDR very early with decent mana regen (Codex/Idol/Ionian/Watchers). One of the drawbacks on RoA is the individual components are either pricey (Catalyst at 1100) or aren't that valuable by themselves (Blasting only offers AP).

khorneyJan 24, 20171 votes

i play windskeeprs on taric and i always get redemption i play him mroe utility based and find im not lackign in anything.

RavenhaleJan 24, 20171 votes

Windspeaker's Taric? Hmm. I wonder how that would work on Alistar. I haven't changed up my mastery pages all that much beyond quick fixing all my Junglers that used to abuse SotA. I think I still have my three Support Tanks (Leona/Alistar/Braum) defaulting with the Bond of Stone (which could be garbage at this point).

khorneyJan 24, 20171 votes

bond of stone is literally only good on taric and maybe braum. Cotc is meant for people who can dive like ali thresh leo blitz people like that. i play hella utility shield bot. Bond of stone is great if you rush knights vow, thats almost 20% damage reduction for the adc. Reason i go windskeepers becuase i can heal and shield and with face of the mountain thats 1 more shield and redemption adds 10% to that and my last item varies but i get mikhails only for the the 20% shield and heal. peopel be liek your not tanky, reason i take scaling runes and my quints are the gold every 10 sec i havent decided if i want to change those or not. usually reaching around 3500 hp and 250 armor and l70ish mr sometimes more is def not tanky not to mention 45% cdr and can spam heal and shield.

RavenhaleJan 24, 20171 votes

That's a good point on Knight's Vow. Like Morg, I have such an old habit over how I build Leona that I forget about it entirely. I blame Frozen Heart for being such a good tower dive enabler.

I think the deciding factor between the two (CotC or BoS) would be whether or not I am the team's only source of durable initiation. If we have a Diver, it may be best to stick with BoS and peel for the carries than trying to offer my negligible damage upon theirs.

I don't think I've built a Crucible in a long time. Though if that active was more like an immunity to CC for x amount of seconds, I would find a reason to build it. The problem I find with Crucible's active is that my target is often dead the moment they get CCed.

As my go-to sixth item, I often throw a Zrot in there because it always feels useful on just about anybody.

khorneyJan 24, 20171 votes

onyl reason i like mikhails is regen, cdr, 20% heal and shield bonus. active is crap in my opinion, it should be a aoe thing like redemption, literally if it wasnt for the 20% heal and shield no on ewould get it

RavenhaleJan 24, 20171 votes

If Mikhaels was an AoE cleanse you would make every Amumu cry.

khorneyJan 24, 20171 votes

and more peopel would actually take it. as it stands its a trash active, and the only reason to take it is becuase of the 20% heal and shield

ForFoxSakesJan 25, 20171 votes

You dont build Ionian on morg either.... Most non tank supports get item 3117 so they can roam to gank other lanes or fast deep ward and get back to lane.

The price and ramp up for RoA is such crap when you need more utility and power, especially being underlevelled vs carries you need zhonya in order to get your ult off without suiciding

RavenhaleJan 25, 20171 votes

I've always been on the fence over the value of Mobi Boots. It is a map pressure item that's hard to put a price tag on. Ionian, on the other hand, is 900 for 10% CDR and 45 MS. Feels like a safer, more reliable purchase. I doubt I would ever build Mobi Boots if the team is behind, but I should make a point to try it out in an even game. I've always enjoyed being hyper mobile.

You say RoA is crap but don't actually prove it. I've already stated you won't have both Utility and power for the same budget. Either you will have Redemption or Zhonya, not both. A lot of value in Redemption is in the opportunity to use it while RoA literally is a stat stick you buy and forget about. I think the real truth here is that RoA is the lazier support item to pick up. Your pretty much guaranteed to get your value out of RoA while you have to work to get your value out of Redemption. My biggest reason for picking up RoA has always been durability with the AP/Mana being more of an added bonus. Since Redemption does offer more health on immediate purchase, I should try it out. As I stated earlier, I do like the thought of picking things up piecemeal for an early max CDR.

ForFoxSakesJan 25, 20171 votes

You dont really need to rush max CDR. You arent using your abilities on CD and often 1 or 2 bindings and the teamfight is over.

For boots, having 105 MS to get back into lane or rush down the river to save a jungler skirmish has won plenty of games. End of a teamfight (after not attacking for a few seconds) it lets you run down weakened enemies to land a bind and grant the team an extra kill

Already said why ROA is crap because of the timing to scale up while delaying your other items if you rush it, or if you dont rush it then the stacks rarely come into effect when a game should be decided by 25 min. ROA does NOTHING for your utility, its just a fat stat stick and as a proper support you're supposed to bring a lot of utility. Zhonyas gives utility where you can use your ult without feeding a kill every single time you go in to use it.

Zhonya gives CDR and durability with the components, while Redemption gives utility and durability for a very cheap price. The active on Redemption not only gives you huge zoning and near global effect, but also helps you land your stuff. Use the active and enemies should be moving away which helps telegraph where they go, spread out so you can pick who you want to snare and move out of minion waves - all which help land binds

Lastly, Morg can solo defend towers with a zhonya. W to clear waves and a huge deterrent to dive her when she can AoE CC the diving team on top of going invul, CC proof and snare someone trying to leave the dive. With ROA you're much easier to kill

RavenhaleJan 25, 20171 votes

You have to rush RoA or you would never build it. I still don't see how you "delay" other items, when I stated the budget and what you would sacrifice. You would sacrifice Redemption and 600 gold towards whatever item you would have followed Redemption with. That's mostly an AP loss this route in exchange for an active with a 2 minute Cooldown. Even with the recent nerfs on the Health and Heal, that might not be so bad.

The other option would be to complete Zhonya first. While RoA is cheaper than Zhonya, the 200 gold difference is almost negligible. I need to pause and do the math to see if the armor provided by Zhonya is equivalent to the Health of RoA. 45 armor is 45% more health so a Lvl 6 Morg has effectively 400 more health against physical damage. Hmm... well that's definitely more effective against Tank or Utility Support lanes. Most AP supports have skill shots, so you should theoretically be able to avoid their damage.

TBH, I probably would be more comfortable going Zhonya over Redemption. It feels like the only thing I'm giving up is the Mana. Zhonya has always been something I considered building but often wouldn't because I had RoA.

PaquayJan 24, 20171 votes

Well if you did nothing wrong, no flaming or name-calling etc, then you have nothing to worry about. You will only get in trouble if you are reported AND it is a substantiated report. Anybody can report anyone for anything but if you did nothing wrong your fine.

As to how to handle the player: based solely on the information you gave, it sounds like someone who wasn't playing the support role at all. If it were me, I would have asked and when they declined to purchase any support items or ward or anything, I would just report that player at the end of the game. Make sure to fill out exactly what it is they did.

There is nothing wrong with playing off-meta champs or using peculiar builds, but there IS something wrong with not playing any part of your specified role. You are expected to work together as a team and if you don't, then you open yourself up to punishment. Likely this person does the same thing in each of the games they are stuck in as "support" and have frustrated a lot of players.

RalanrJan 24, 201710 votes

No. A support should not have more CS than the ADC and definitely shouldn't be taking farm (unless they grab relic shield but even then they can't take much with it).

Kirius DarkJan 24, 20175 votes

The only time I supported and took CS from the ADC was in flex where i got paired with a bronze 4 ADC who would just auto attack nonstop and have zero clue on WTF last hitting is, so that after 3 and a half waves of minions he had 4 CS. I then took the farm for the rest of the game as a mage to be the carry on bot lane. Unless they're a full on potato, dont take CS from the ADC.

Sometimes terribad ADCs will bitch about the support hitting minions but there is a time when the support does this:

The ADC isnt pushing and just simply last hitting when they should be shoving the lane, like when the other laners have gone back so your minions crash into their tower, or when you want to go back so you dont get minions crashing your tower.
To help prime the minions for last hitting, especially under tower. Early caster minions for example take 1 tower hit and 2 autos to kill, so to kill each one the support tags the minion with an auto, tower hits it, then adc finishes it off. They can also prime a minion for last hitting when 2 or more minion HP is dropping at the same rate and there's no way the ADC could normally get both, so the support speeds up the damage rate on one so the ADC can last hit them properly

TricolorStarJan 24, 20174 votes

I'm all for Support/ADC equality cuz let's face it supports get shit on a lot (supp main myself), but here's the thing:

Supports, true supports (not like Annie or Vel'Koz) are designed to thrive on no gold income. If you are playing like a real support with the safety and health of your ADC in mind, then you give them that fucking farm because they need it, you don't.

It's a dominance thing, really. "I don't like you so I'm gonna take the farm", or "I'm just as important! I need farm!"

Supps are just as important, but they don't need farm. They are like the plants of League: they can make their own food (gold). ADC's are carnivores, they cannot.

Big LincolnJan 24, 20173 votes

ADC should last hit better if they don't want me to have more farm

S0kaXJan 24, 20179 votes

Support should not take the farm from adcs if they want their adc to be useful

Big LincolnJan 24, 20173 votes

then learn to last hit

if you miss every cannon then im taking them

S0kaXJan 24, 20173 votes

I can't last hit if you take my cs.

Big LincolnJan 24, 20172 votes

if you were missing last hits already then you weren't getting CS to begin with were you

S0kaXJan 24, 20172 votes

If you hit my cs trying to "help" then of course I will miss them.

LordGeovanniJan 26, 20171 votes

you lie as adcs have more auto attack damage than supports to last hit with if you are last hitting the support cant take away the cs except by spells which should be going to the enemy champions. or minions when shoveing the lane

Azure HamsterJan 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRTKedAu,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-01-24T15:09:10.210+0000)

ADC should last hit better if they don't want me to have more farm

Last hitting is harder when your support is making the minion's health bars harder to keep track of by hitting them. Morgana with her puddle can make it impossible to CS, as it can kill many minions in the amount of time between two AAs.

Caitlyn

LordGeovanniJan 26, 20171 votes

morgs puddle cant make you miss more than 2 cs in a 6-7 minion wave and morg has to use her puddle in lane its her sustain. just make sure you last hit the minions minions only target the closest minion first so that will be the one that takes damage faster if you cant last hit with morg puddle in a 6 minion wave you definately cant last hit in a minion wave where you haave 8 minions or more on your side.

Azure HamsterJan 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

morgs puddle cant make you miss more than 2 cs in a 6-7 minion wave and morg has to use her puddle in lane its her sustain. just make sure you last hit the minions minions only target the closest minion first so that will be the one that takes damage faster if you cant last hit with morg puddle in a 6 minion wave you definately cant last hit in a minion wave where you haave 8 minions or more on your side.

I play Morg in Treeline and I call BS. The puddle can easily take out all of the ranged mininons and most of the melee minions on its own. Giving me the opportunity maybe to snag two of them.

Caitlyn

LordGeovanniJan 27, 20171 votes

you are talking late game morganna with alters buffing her not in lane support morganna who is maxing q or even w because the base damage isnt much and scales off of enemyies missing health meaning who the minions target will be the one that reaches low before all the rest

NekoniClawsJan 24, 20173 votes

I'd wager it's just because you're new to ADC, so your ADC skill level is going to be way below your elo's average, so you're basically going to end up spooking a few people into thinking they need to carry you------ until you begin to blend in. I know it's mean of them to disrupt your game just because you're new at something, but it does give the team the higher chance of winning if they're a support who benefits from gold (Morg does), they're probably doing it for that reason rather than not wanting to play support. (This is most cases- I'm sure terrible supports can still cause it)

But yeah AAing your minions can really throw you off, Morg is pretty bad (Fiddlesticks is just the worst) It's a sign of a bad support if they do it when it's not needed, and it can cloud a support's vision of their ADC. (make sure it's not needed, though)

MLDzXnRRRJan 24, 20172 votes

Well, she wasn't really a support then. I know people that haven't played support for years and when they have to support, they dodge or go double mid/ top/ jg.

khorneyJan 24, 20172 votes

she is trying to carry, in low elo a lot of supps will just go straight ap. also what supp items would you have her buy? i mean the most on morg would be ap ss item and zekes and thats about it. people do this becuase the vast majority of adcs in this elo are beyon dtrash and will blame the supp at a moments notice beucase they will chase under turret and get caught out nonstop

KoggyStyleJan 25, 20172 votes

A Carry is supposed to emerge from botlane at some point, sometimes its gotta be you.

P.S. Fed supports are op as fk man.

EDIT: Dick support, dont flame or even talk to them only use pings(dont ping spam tho) report after the game and move on, theyll stay lowelo youll climb.

LordGeovanniJan 26, 20171 votes

where did this concept come from that if some one doesnt submit to everything you want (which is what usually gets people called a dick but thats not the important thing) whill not climb but you will. isnt match makeing putting you and the other person together because you have near the same likelyness to win games

Maximum MordeJan 24, 20171 votes

There is no rule that the support has to have 0 cs. Get over it and move on to the next game.

RalanrJan 24, 201710 votes

Obviously not 0 CS. But actively stealing farm in laning is just dumb.

Maximum MordeJan 24, 20171 votes

Meh, in my experience I'm usually the better player when compared to my ADC, especially early in the season when I'm still climbing. Thus, it's not even dumb if your goal is to climb. It can certainly tilt people if they go to play a match and it doesn't go how they want, so it's a risky play and sometimes a bad idea. But, that's life.

JackMcSnipeyzJan 24, 20177 votes

Making one if your main damage dealers obsolete by sabotaging his gold income will do way worse than good. You're a duo lane, gold is the main tool of the adc (unlike other solo lanes where XP is just as important). Even if your adc is bad, stealing his farm is sabotaging his preformance, you're hurtimg your own team, supports have gold generating items and masteries, use them, stealing your adc's CS only means now you have 2 useless players who activly play against each other

Maximum MordeJan 24, 20171 votes

Believe it or not, most champions can do good damage output if you feed them gold, so you are really just trading one damage dealer for another. And ADCs don't need much gold at all to right click a turret, which is their actual purpose.

LordGeovanniJan 26, 20171 votes

there are like 5 ap supports that do as much damage than an adc maybe more.

NuggeTechJan 24, 20172 votes

I agree with the fact that a support should have 0 CS. If the adc is dead or back at base, then it is helpful in freezing the lane. But having equal CS to the adc, cmon that is just pushing it

LexyyJan 24, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRTKedAu,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-24T14:44:27.678+0000)

There is no rule that the support has to have 0 cs. Get over it and move on to the next game.

Having 0 cs is not the same as having 111 and denying your adc valuable cs. Get your facts straight.

Supreme Senpai69Jan 24, 20171 votes

She can build whatever the hell she wants. But she shouldn't be taking CS early on. Especially Morgana, supports have ways of earning gold. Once laning phase ends she can take all the CS she wants, especially pushing waves. She's really good at that with her W.

SwaggyMcGhee420Jan 24, 20171 votes

"support" If you get autofilled support, please play a real support and try to help your adc. Don't just play Lux, take farm, rush mejais, then build full ap. You're not helping your team by making your adc useless, especially while support items are so strong.

AptestJan 24, 20171 votes

You want an answer?

because otherwise I just assume you sucked balls and the morgana was just responding to your potato play style.

everybody has bad days. you had yours. 'happens

VillainousMonkeyJan 25, 20171 votes

I would say that there is a certain point where as a support I will start taking your cs or deserting you in lane, but you would have to be extremely bad for me to think the gold is better off on me than you. Your best course of action is to politely ask 2 or 3 times. If it doesn't stop just accept the fact and try not to let it tilt you.

Proxy345Jan 26, 20171 votes

She got the right items for sure lol

SwiftKitten88Jan 26, 20171 votes

there are multiple reasons why a support might take CS/damage creep.

here are TEN reasons why

your not in the lane... if your not there to take it then the support needs gold
they are damaging the creep so you can push the wave faster (aka the enemy team backed and you can get free tower damage and deny them CS by having yours die under tower, (aka don't freeze the wave when the enemy backs)
many ap supports want to proc . if the enemy is standing in the minion wave... w/e aoe skill they do might hit the creeps well as the player... deal with it.
im not goign to turn off my auto attacks if i accidentally attack a creep, deal with it... i use autos to proc as well
i am PURPOSELY damaging the creep to HELP u CS, aka if my ADC is i can set up incremental damage on the creep to allow 1 bouncing bomb to kill 4 of them. if your too stupid not to use it... that's your own fault. i might also set up equal damage on creep damage for a Q to kill them all.
the support is trying to tell you they want exp... if the support is lvl 5 or lvl 10 or lvl 15... or is just frankly WAY underleved.. they WANT exp so they can HELP you. the may just want to make the stuff die faster if your too damn slow at taking the CS and freezing the lane for no reason and its perfectly safe to push
they are VERY close to an item powerspike. aka (for champs like )
mid game. they might be split pushing because the rest of the team is too stupid to do it. support or not... if i see 5 of them defending mid tower i can take and your grouped as 5 making no progress and i see a free tower bot ... I'm goign to do it. if you choose to engage a 4v5 without me that's your own damn fault. you should have sent someone bot yourself instead of waiting until the SUPPORT had to do it
again mid game... if no one is taking the CS and no one is in lane... i can certainly use solo exp and and gold
(and this the an EXTREMELY rare scenario) your are literally SO BAD at adc that the support thinks you should just afk and they will carry bot lane solo. (aka if i was trying to play adc i would EXPECT my support to do this, because I'm THAT freaking bad at it, if i can adc better than u... you have issues bro...)

obviously if your support is purposely taking CS when your right there and stealing it from you... or continuously autoing the CS and NOT setting up for a faster wave push.. they are likely playing wrong